What is time?

[Rockgod30]

Time is distance. In order to do the calculation d/t the two must be related, one cannot divide two unrelated things. Miles puts it much better than I can.
http://milesmathis.com/time.html

We are talking about two VERY different things here. Miles Mathis is talking about the MEASUREMENT of TIME, not UNIVERSAL TIME. He is right that to MEASURE what we call TIME it is dependent on distance. A measurement of the distance between seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, years, and even to the smallest measurements of TIME like nanoseconds.

However TIME would still exist even if we could not measure TIME.

What do I mean?

TIME is NOT dependent on MATTER. If we froze all MATTER in the universe by magic or removed MATTER completely from the UNIVERSE would TIME still exist. YES.

Would TIME have any meaning?

No. Yet even without measurement by MATTER the aspect of the Universe would go on.

Both TIME and SPACE are NOTHING meaning there is nothing for MATTER to act ON, only act IN and observe both these parts of the universe.

There is a reason the universe would go on if you removed MATTER since both TIME and SPACE require NOTHING to be, they just are and both are infinite. SPACE does not ACT on MATTER. If you remove SPACE from the UNIVERSE, there is NO UNIVERSE. PERIOD since there MATTER exists inside the INFINITY of SPACE. You remove SPACE and thus you remove MATTER since MATTER is IN what we call SPACE.

However TIME would still exist since SPACE can not ACT in anyway ON universal TIME. So what if you removed TIME like you removed SPACE. Then you then removed MATTER again since MATTER can only exist IN what we call time. SPACE is void, nothing, no partical, frame or anything. MATTER exists inside TIME just like it is INSIDE the void of SPACE.

MATTER can not exist without either of these aspects of the UNIVERSE.

MATTER does not ACT on TIME, only IN what is called UNIVERSAL TIME. Matter that is intelligent can MEASURE or comprehend the passage of TIME.

Measurement does not make TIME become real. It is always there.

TIME is NOT perception. If TIME is infinite does it have no value?

No TIME is very valuable even as it is infinite.

MATTER must act in TIME literally. MATTER follows certain laws, like gravity, thermodynamics, and other motions as Miles said while not caused by TIME are MEASURED by the observation of TIME. This is why if we removed TIME as an aspect of the UNIVERSE then MATTER would be removed too since MATTER exists in TIME.

MATTER has properties which can act on other MATTER. There are energetic properties that cause decay rates in atoms, entropy, and other components of MATTER that have importance in Universal TIME.

MATTER does not make TIME dependent on it. Neither effect the other. TIME has no agenda, no malice, or concern for MATTER since TIME is NOTHING. MATTER can not act ON anything that has to do with the aspect of the UNIVERSE called TIME.

We perceive TIME passing and again if all MATTER froze this instant right now would TIME stop because all the measuring devices of MATTER stopped. NO. TIME would continue on just like SPACE.

I could go on and on attempting to make the point that TIME is NOT dependent on MATTER to be TIME. TIME is TIME, SPACE is SPACE and MATTER is MATTER. None can act ON the other.

MILES PER HOUR = SPACE per TIME = distance/time (d/t)

So what? I as an intelligent being just MEASURED the TIME it took me to travel in SPACE. Did I create TIME as MATTER because I travelled miles in the MEASUREMENT of an HOUR? NO.

I observed TWO aspects of the universe that I can act IN.

UNIVERSAL TIME is not subjective or can be manipulated.

Let us use an example.

You (Intelligent MATTER) are travelling 1 mile(SPACE) per hour(TIME).

It is a constant rate of travel for two hours then you stop. You travelled 2 miles and two hours have passed. Now you have stopped. Has TIME stopped since you (MATTER) have stopped?

Of course NOT.

A clock by ANY difinition is MATTER. An atomic clock is MATTER. MATTER can act on MATTER. A clock can slow down or speed up by other effects of MATTER such as magnetic fields, electromagnetic fields, heat, entropy, cosmic rays, aether, and many other energies in the UNIVERSE can affect the mechanisms of MATTER.

So then if MATTER is affected by these energies of MATTER then what we have isn't a TIME problem, but a perception problem.

What does that mean?

Einstein was WRONG about SPECIAL RELATIVITY.

Minkowski was RIGHT about one thing. TIME is an aspect of the UNIVERSE. SPACE is THREE DIMENSIONS (X,Y,Z axis) that extend in all directs into infinity. TIME is a FORTH DIMENSION (T) not small (t) that IS moving at right angles to all three of the other dimensions that make up SPACE. Here is where Minkowski and Einstein go WRONG.

At ANY point in SPACE whatever distance you (MATTER) travel TIME is the SAME. Both Einstein and Minkowski and others assumed SPACE and TIME where the SAME. That is why they called both SPACETIME since they thought that uniting them as FOUR DIMENSIONS, (X,Y,Z axis + t) in Mathematics instead of what was really happening in reality.

The FOURTH DIMENSION as Minkowski called it is SEPARATE from SPACE. This is where they are all wrong. TIME is not a point on the graphic calculator or axis map you draw of a measured distance that somehow becomes UNIVERSAL TIME. The FOURTH DIMENSION is IN ALL POINTS OF THE X,Y,Z axis at the SAME moment in TIME(T) MATTER is MEASURED moving inside SPACE.

We as intelligent MATTER can calculate the distance and time travelled but now lets do another math problem associated with reality.

10^+1,000 miles per hour from x +1, y +1, z +1 to x -1, y -1, z -1. The distance from one side of the graph positive to negative does not even need to be mentioned since that speed is near instantanous. According to Einstein that is not possible because of the SPEED of LIGHT limit to the Universe. Minkowski would say that SPACE would be curved when travelling that fast. Both are wrong and have been proven wrong in the real world.

The recent experiment at CERN showed both that SPACE did not curve and that the SPEED of LIGHT is NOT the speed limit of the Universe.

SPACE is absolute, infinite in all directions.

TIME is absolute, a second is a second universally at ALL points in the UNIVERSE independent of MATTER and SPACE.

Minkowski started out correct about TIME being a right angles to SPACE, but then tried to make SPACETIME tangable, breakable, to be bent, breached, curved or influenced by MATTER when MATTER (something) can not act ON SPACE and TIME (nothing) he was wrong.

As intelligent MATTER we can MEASURE the points in the infinity of SPACE and IN the moments IN the INFINITY of TIME that is at ALL points in SPACE.

Where Minkowski went wrong was applying the flawed and misinterpreted data of Einstein and others who based their work on Einstein.

The right angle of TIME is at ALL points in SPACE at ANY point in SPACE. That is where the fatal flaw came into play.

The T for TIME does not bend, break, curve, breach, or change angle. It continues on without regard to SPACE or MATTER passing for us to observe and never to influence since there is NO mechanism, string, sheet, thread, or anything to allow MATTER to do ANYTHING to TIME except to measure its passage of seconds from infinity to infinity.

I hope that makes it clear what TIME is and that it is NOT dependent ON velocity, MATTER, distance or anything. TIME (T) is indpendent of MATTER and passes whether we mark it or not at ALL points in SPACE.

~Rockgod30

[sjw40364]

Nope, time is distance, just under another name. What is a year? The distance the earth travels in its orbit from one point back to that same point. What is a day> The distance a point on its surface travels around the axis back to that same point. What is a hour? The distance a minute hand on a clock travels back to where it started, so many swings of a pendulum. What is a second? So many oscillations of a cesium atom. What is oscillation? From Merriam-webster dictionary:

1. The action or state of oscillating.

Oscillating:

1. a: To swing backward and forward like a pendulum. b: To move or travel back and forth between two points.

So time is nothing but the distance the cesium atom takes to travel back and forth between two points. You may call these distances seconds, days, years, etc, but the fact is they are all distances.

[Rockgod30]

TIME is NOT perception or measurement. TIME in itself is an aspect of the UNIVERSE. The atomic clock or atoms or MATTER are not the source of TIME. Intelligent MATTER can measure TIME and SPACE. So I agree that oscillation, the pendulum can measure TIME and that measurement is not the source of TIME.

TIME has been before we could meausre it with an atomic clock and will be after the mechanism that makes the atomic clock has broken down.

MATTER is not 'hitched', tied, attached, or in anyway connected to TIME. There is nothing to connect MATTER to TIME. As I have said we are IN time, not ON it like mathematicians have speculated. Being IN time we can not change it, breach it, bend it or reverse it. That is why it is called UNIVERSAL TIME. It is the same time at ALL points in SPACE and continues unending into INFINITY like SPACE existing at ALL points in SPACE.

TIME (Universal Time or Big 'T') is not the same as measured time (t) by MATTER and perception of intelligence.

~Rockgod30

[sjw40364]

TIME is NOT perception or measurement. TIME in itself is an aspect of the UNIVERSE. The atomic clock or atoms or MATTER are not the source of TIME. Intelligent MATTER can measure TIME and SPACE. So I agree that oscillation, the pendulum can measure TIME and that measurement is not the source of TIME.

TIME has been before we could meausre it with an atomic clock and will be after the mechanism that makes the atomic clock has broken down.

MATTER is not 'hitched', tied, attached, or in anyway connected to TIME. There is nothing to connect MATTER to TIME. As I have said we are IN time, not ON it like mathematicians have speculated. Being IN time we can not change it, breach it, bend it or reverse it. That is why it is called UNIVERSAL TIME. It is the same time at ALL points in SPACE and continues unending into INFINITY like SPACE existing at ALL points in SPACE.

TIME (Universal Time or Big 'T') is not the same as measured time (t) by MATTER and perception of intelligence.

~Rockgod30

Time has no source, is not an aspect of the universe, it is simply our measurement of movement and decay. There is no fourth dimension or 9 or 12 or however many, there are 3, length, width and height: x, y, z. You can't change time? Then why do clocks on the moon tick at different rates than on earth? Or clocks in orbit? Because the cesium atom oscillates at different rates depending on its distance from a gravitational source (electromagnetic). Time is nothing but man's way of trying to understand the universe and does not exist outside of the minds of men.

[Scott MC]

It is unconquerable...

and it would appear to provide a benchmark by which relative events may be measured.

[sjw40364]

It is unconquerable...

and it would appear to provide a benchmark by which relative events may be measured.

Only because man feels the need to measure, but outside the mind of man their is no time. Only man cares about the passage of so-called time, a simple measurement for the distance the earth travels in orbit around the Sun form one point back to that same point, or the distance the cesium atom oscillates from one point to another.

[Rockgod30]

I think we are in agreement on this point. TIME is NOTHING.

Where we disagree is since TIME is NOTHING is it an aspect of the Universe or something intelligent MATTER constructs to measure distance or oscillation of MATTER?

SPACE is NOTHING too. We measure SPACE by distance as well just like TIME. This is why Einstein and others who followed him went wrong in uniting the terms together since to get accurate distance calculations of an objects movement in SPACE you have to divide, add, subtract, or multiply the measurement of TIME. Like miles per hour.

SPACE and TIME are NOTHING we agree on that. Here is where we differ.

SPACE is infinity that is an aspect of the UNIVERSE. I think we can agree on that too. MATTER only exists IN the x,y,z axis which stretches to INFINITY.

Our difference or disagreement is that I observe TIME as independent of measuring devices that MATTER acts in TIME just like MATTER acts in SPACE.

Your point of view and others here are that TIME is a function of the oscillation and distance MATTER is measured making TIME nothing at all. Only a unit of measurement by perception of the human mind (intelligent MATTER).

I see that TIME is the SAME at all points in SPACE (x,y,z axis), at ALL points it can be observed to flow in ONE direction only. On a graph and in reality we see a planet for example move through space and we can calculate the time of the orbit.

Now let us take a smiple rock and hang it somewhere in SPACE like a point on a graph.

We give it no motion and it just sits there in the void of space.

Is TIME happening since there is no movement of the rock? Subjectively as intelligence since we see the rock and we have a clock next to it measuring TIME then yes TIME is happening.

If there is no clock or intelligence measuring the rock is there TIME?

YES. I am going to make a crude graph I hope it works and can be read on your computers. Here it goes.

| z axis ^ <-- UNIVERSAL TIME
| ^ *Tried to make a straight line up
| . <-point in space ^
| or rock in a void ^
--------------------------------- ^
^ x,y axis | ^
| ^
| ^
| ^
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
^UNIVERSAL TIME
ALL points move in a positive or forward direction ONLY. I am not saying TIME is movement, just that even though the point is stationary like the rock in reality hanging in a void of SPACE or the point on the graph are IN time so even without movement or distance TIME is passing whether it is observed by human minds or not. At right angles in a positive, forward direction ONLY.

You know the old philosophical question "If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around to hear it; does it make a sound?"

From a perception point of view NO since no one of intelligence heard it, recorded it, took notice or caused any perceptable change it make sense this would be the answer.

From a physics stand point the answer is YES if a tree fell in the forest would it make a sound even if no one is around to hear it. All aspects of the tree are measurable and the after math of a fallen tree can be observed forensically. Plus the most important part of physics a tree falling in the forest is repeatable with people around this time so the exact conditions can be observed to find that in fact the tree does make a sound with or without people there. (Mythbusters blowing trees up FOR SCIENCE! *Favorite Show*)

This is my point of view about TIME. It exists with or without measurement. Even though it is NOTHING it is an aspect of the UNIVERSE that as intelligent MATTER we do our best to understand and measure even though we can not connect any CLOCK, MECHANISM, TOOL, or ANYTHING to UNIVERSAL TIME. To me from my observations TIME just IS an aspect of the UNIVERSE we are IN just like SPACE.

~Rockgod30

*I hope my chart is ok as is. Sorry if it not.

[sjw40364]

The problem is that there is no such thing as stationary anywhere in the vast infinity of the universe. Even if you stopped it dead in space it would still be traveling in orbit with our solar system around the galaxy and with the galaxy. The very atoms that make up the rock are moving, spinning, never at rest. Without movement there is no existence and everything that exists spins and moves.

[Scott MC]

I am in amazed disagreement, Rockgod30.

How can you say time is nothing when soon enough it will take away everything, without exception?

Time, ultimately, rules your and my and everyone else's world. .. just because animals aren't aware of it does not remove it's influence over them.

[Scott MC]

The problem is that there is no such thing as stationary anywhere in the vast infinity of the universe. Even if you stopped it dead in space it would still be traveling in orbit with our solar system around the galaxy and with the galaxy. The very atoms that make up the rock are moving, spinning, never at rest. Without movement there is no existence and everything that exists spins and moves.

That's an interesting observation - but how does the conclusion follow? Because we have not observed any durable phenomena or fixed point, they don't exist? Methods of research and perspectives informing that research are developing all the time, and until all avenues are exhausted how can it reasonably be said that these states don't exist?

[sjw40364]

The problem is that there is no such thing as stationary anywhere in the vast infinity of the universe. Even if you stopped it dead in space it would still be traveling in orbit with our solar system around the galaxy and with the galaxy. The very atoms that make up the rock are moving, spinning, never at rest. Without movement there is no existence and everything that exists spins and moves.

That's an interesting observation - but how does the conclusion follow? Because we have not observed any durable phenomena or fixed point, they don't exist? Methods of research and perspectives informing that research are developing all the time, and until all avenues are exhausted how can it reasonably be said that these states don't exist?

Our problem is that time is dependent on the movement of the cesium atom which changes depending on nearness to a gravity source (E/M IMO) or upon acceleration. so the concept of a universal time as we understand it is impossible as everything is moving and therefore affected by that very movement. Things decay, but that is not necessarily time, just our way of quantifying it. By decaying the molecular structures are broken down and the base atomic structures are released, to once again start the whole cycle all over again.

I agree, space is nothing and time is nothing. The problem came when someone decided to relate two nothings together and make it something, i.e. space-time The very concept that matter can affect a nothing and in turn this nothing affect somethings is quite absurd and would be laughable if the entire modern cosmology was not based upon it. The very fact that it is unfalsifiable should raise alarms. How do you disprove nothing? Space-time is not an aether, so is in fact nothing at all, and nothing by its very definition does not exist. If space-time existed it would be composed of something, and every theorist will insist it is not an aether and so is composed of nothing at all.

This reliance on nothing has brought about the willingness to accept all the other absurdities in modern science, Black Holes, Neutron Stars, Dark Matter in two flavors (cold, oops that's warm now and hot), Dark Energy, Multiple Dimensions, etc. etc. After all, if one can believe in one nothing, why not accept multiple nothings?

[Scott MC]

Time is dependant on the movement of the cesium atom? ? Is that proved? lol

With regards to the relative nature of time discussed, I guess there are two general approaches to that:
1. that everything is random, or,
2. there is order

It defies all logic to claim that time and space are nothing.

[sjw40364]

Time is dependant on the movement of the cesium atom? ? Is that proved? lol

With regards to the relative nature of time discussed, I guess there are two general approaches to that:
1. that everything is random, or,
2. there is order

It defies all logic to claim that time and space are nothing.

I don't claim per-se that space is nothing, but the space of SR is nothing, it was a counter argument to an aether as they did not want to accept an aether at that time. In order for space to not be nothing it must be composed of something and would therefore be an aether no matter what word you want to use to call it. SR claims it is not an aether, yet it is bent by mass and tells mass how to move. So how is nothing bent by something? So it is either nothing or it is an aether. There are really only two choices. The absurd, that nothing is affected by something and nothing tells something how to move, or space is composed of an aether.

Time need not exist for the universe to work, only for mankind to quantify it and describe it. If the universe is indeed infinite in dimension and existence, then time really has no meaning except for us. In infinity a billion years has no meaning whatsoever, except for those who's existence is fleeting.

[Nitai]

Time is not real? Then what is Past, Present, and Future?

Time is Eternal. Eternal Time is divided into PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE.

You cannot act upon the PAST, but PRESENTLY, we can change our FUTURE.

There is no measurement there. I am not measuring anything when I say Past, Present, and Future. Those are 3 phases of eternal time.

If anything, we can say that TIME is like GOD and that we are all ultimately under the control of TIME.

[Rockgod30]

I am in amazed disagreement, Rockgod30.

How can you say time is nothing when soon enough it will take away everything, without exception?

Time, ultimately, rules your and my and everyone else's world. .. just because animals aren't aware of it does not remove it's influence over them.

I did not say TIME is NOTHING. I said there is NOTHING for MATTER to act ON time only IN time as an aspect of the Universe. So in a way TIME is NOTHING or MATTER or SPACE is unable to act ON universal TIME.

MATTER can only MEASURE time, or more specifically INTELLIGENT MATTER can measure time. Now here is what is interesting. While MATTER does not connect to the mechanism of UNIVERSAL TIME as intelligent MATTER we know just like SPACE as an aspect of the universe that there is TIME as well.

TIME is like SPACE in that MATTER is IN both yet both are separate aspects of the universe with ZERO properties. TIME does not take away anything, the properties of MATTER (see Second Law of Thermodynamics) take away everything without exception.

TIME does not RULE, but it does have value. If you need to think of it as SOMETHING then TIME is the IRRESTISTABLE FORCE and SPACE is the IMMOVABLE OBJECT.

They did not explode on contact since they are not in contact instead they always were, always are and always will be to infinity and eternity.

TIME is the IRRESTISTABLE FORCE in that there is NOTHING at all MATTER can do to stop, reverse, or speed up TIME. TIME moves irrestistably forward as all MATTER is IN UNIVERSAL TIME.

SPACE is the IMMOVABLE OBJECT that all MATTER dwells IN. MATTER can not act ON the IMMOVABLE OBJECT of SPACE only IN the infinity of SPACE. As intelligent MATTER we can choose any point in SPACE and begin to measure it, just like we can pick any point in TIME and measure it as well.

There is NO clock, sundail, mechanism, string, theory, or anything of MATTER or INTELLIGENT MATTER can connect to UNIVERSAL TIME since there is NOTHING to connect to. We dwell, exist, live, or comprehend TIME as an IRRESTISTABLE FORCE that is moving at a steady rate as MATTER moves about swirling, twisting, or steady INSIDE the stream of TIME that MATTER flows forever and ever IN that will never have an end.

SPACE is the same that even if black holes existed, or other infinite power sources the IMMOVABLE OBJECT of SPACE will NEVER be breached, broken, bent, or curved since there is NOTHING for MATTER to act ON since we are INSIDE the IMMOVABLE OBJECT as well.

How can the IMMOVABLE OBJECT and the IRRESISTABLE FORCE both be real and something? Don't they cancel each other or would explode on contact?

Who said they would?

SPACE is not MATTER with properties to explode or react as we expect MATTER to react.

Both the IMMOVABLE OBJECT (SPACE) and the IRRESTISTABLE FORCE (TIME) don't react to each other since there is NOTHING for each to act ON. MATTER is dependent upon both not the other way around since we are inside both SPACE and TIME.

That is why if the IMMOVABLE OBEJCT is removed from the UNIVERSE then MATTER goes with it since MATTER was INSIDE SPACE. TIME the IRRESTISTABLE FORCE would continue on not noticing or caring since it has no properties that both SPACE and MATTER are gone.

The same is true if we removed the IRRESTISTABLE FORCE from the UNIVERSE then all MATTER would be taken too since MATTER is inside UNIVERSAL TIME or the IRRESTISTABLE FORCE. The IMMOVABLE OBJECT also would not care or notice at all since it has no properties that both TIME and MATTER are gone.

I thank you all so far who have contributed to this discussion. Because I have been attempting to explain such an aspect of the UNIVERSE, both SPACE and TIME, that there is a simple answer to what is time?

TIME is the IRRESTISTABLE FORCE that moves all MATTER in it forward in UNIVERSAL TIME that has no beginning or end.

SPACE is the IMMOVABLE OBJECT that all MATTER is INSIDE that is INFINITE in all directions.

I will need to refine this new understanding of both SPACE and TIME, yet I like these words.

So put in a more simple way:

TIME is the IRRESTISTABLE FORCE of the UNIVERSE that all MATTER is IN that is eternal.
SPACE is the IMMOVABLE OBJECT of the UNIVERSE that all MATTER is IN that is infinite.

Time is not real? Then what is Past, Present, and Future?

Time is Eternal. Eternal Time is divided into PAST, PRESENT, and FUTURE.

You cannot act upon the PAST, but PRESENTLY, we can change our FUTURE.

There is no measurement there. I am not measuring anything when I say Past, Present, and Future. Those are 3 phases of eternal time.

If anything, we can say that TIME is like GOD and that we are all ultimately under the control of TIME.

Your post is what I think triggered my thought of the IRRESTISTABLE FORCE and IMMOVABLE OBJECT.

As INTELLIGENT MATTER we can view the perspective of TIME as PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE.

The IRRESTISTABLE FORCE or UNIVERSAL TIME can be comprehended by INTELLIGENT MATTER into these three parts. PAST is where we were, or distance travelled as sjw put it and related is the PRESENT, where we are at this moment. The FUTURE is where we are going because the IRRESTISTABLE FORCE or TIME we are IN causes us without concern, pity, intelligence or care to move FOWARD, IRRESTISTABLY in TIME.

That is how we can even make INTELLIGENT choices (most of the time or even unintelligent choices or no choice at all) and yet everything, all MATTER is inside TIME continues to move forward into the FUTURE from the PRESENT moment.

That is why TIME is valuable. While it does not RULE or have CONTROL over the properties of MATTER there is no way to get back what has been done or reverse TIME because all MATTER moves into the FUTURE in the IRRESTISTABLE FORCE.

So thank you Nitai for helping me with this insight.

~Rockgod30