Miles Mathis

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Trouserman
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Re: Response to Miles Mathis on tides

Post by Trouserman » Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:53 pm

johnmartin wrote:So stated simply we have Δa=4.51x10-5m/s2 all around the earth. So when we take any point on the earth, we know there is the same acceleration difference, adjacent to that point and also on the opposite side of the earth. So if we only look at the centrifugal accelerations as causing tides, we would have the same tidal acceleration all around the earth simultaneously, which is to have the same tidal force and therefore the same tidal height all around the earth surface. As this is not observed, we say the same acceleration difference due to centrifugal forces “cancels out”, because we have the same acceleration difference all over the earth surface.
It's not that it cancels out. It's a portion of the effect of the Earth's rotation, and those effects are rotationally symmetrical, so at a given point on Earth's surface the associated bulge does not rise and fall as that point rotates about the Earth's axis. The Earth's rotation does give rise to an equatorial bulge. It just doesn't rise and fall, so it is not associated with the tides.
So this is where there seems to be a consistency problem when we determine what acceleration differences to include and exclude. According to the procedure described above, we have a difference of the acceleration differences for the centrifugal accelerations, that cancel and are then said to be eliminated from the tidal calculations. Yet this author is inconsistent when he calculates the tide heights, without first taking the differences of the acceleration differences for the gravity accelerations. To be consistent it seems to me, he should have taken the difference from say the opposite side of the earth first and then proceeded. Accordingly it seems he has not done this –

1.129 * 10-6 m/s2 - 1.074 * 10-6 m/s2 = 0.065 * 10-6 m/s2
It's not that we need to look at the difference between these particular points. We need to compare the maxima and minima, not just the two maxima. Unlike the centrifugal force, the gravitational acceleration differences go through a minimum near the perpendicular point p (and its mirror image). At p, the acceleration difference is actually directed inward instead of outward. This makes the difference in the acceleration differences (as you put it) between the maxima and minima slightly larger even than what you get just looking at the size of the effect at the maxima. However, the inward acceleration difference at p is so much smaller than the effect at i or o that it may as well be considered zero. A full treatment of the tides really should mention this, but it is often glossed over for simplicity. (This is particularly true when the linearized approximation to the gravitational field is used, since the linearized field does not vary at all in the perpendicular direction. I think those variations are quadratic, so they should be of the same order of magnitude as the difference between the near and far sides, but I have not checked.)

johnmartin
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Re: Response to Miles Mathis on tides

Post by johnmartin » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:09 pm

It's not that we need to look at the difference between these particular points. We need to compare the maxima and minima, not just the two maxima.
Why do we need to compare the maxima and minima when determine the influence of acceleration differences to determine tidal heights? I would have thought that the tidal heights are calculated directly once the acceleration differences are known at any point on the earths surface. I don’t see how maxima and minima have anything to do with determining tidal heights.
Unlike the centrifugal force, the gravitational acceleration differences go through a minimum near the perpendicular point p (and its mirror image). At p, the acceleration difference is actually directed inward instead of outward. This makes the difference in the acceleration differences (as you put it) between the maxima and minima slightly larger even than what you get just looking at the size of the effect at the maxima.

However, the inward acceleration difference at p is so much smaller than the effect at i or o that it may as well be considered zero. A full treatment of the tides really should mention this, but it is often glossed over for simplicity. (This is particularly true when the linearized approximation to the gravitational field is used, since the linearized field does not vary at all in the perpendicular direction. I think those variations are quadratic, so they should be of the same order of magnitude as the difference between the near and far sides, but I have not checked.)
If the acceleration difference maxima and minima are to be used in the tidal calcs, then it seems to me that we are to calc the tide heights based upon –

1. Determining acceleration differences at points on the earths surface due to centrifugal and gravitational forces.

2. Examining the maxima and minima of the acceleration differences for centrifugal and gravitational forces.

3. If the maxima and minima of the acceleration differences are the same, then the acceleration differences are eliminated from the tidal calcs. If the acceleration differences have different maxima and minima, then they are included in the tidal calcs.

4. Once included in the tidal calcs, the tides heights are determined by using the acceleration differences of gravity alone, using only the acceleration differences and not the difference of the maxima and minima acceleration differences.

This procedure seems to be inconsistent at best. I think the tidal calcs need to account for all the acceleration differences known at any point on the earth to then calc the tide height at that point. This accounts for the known forces acting at points on earth, which is consistent with what we know from the centrifugal and gravity equations.

Comparing the maxima and minima of the acceleration differences will only tell you that there is a variation of the acceleration differences around the earth and therefore we should expect a difference in the relative heights of the tides. This is all it does.

However if we want to determine the total tide heights, then we must account for all the acceleration differences that are known at each point. In this way, when we calc the total tide height, we include all the known forces. But if we do this, then we must acknowledge that the standard tidal model predicts a uniform tide around the earth that swamps the tide caused by gravity. Therefore if we are consistent with adding all the known forces, we must come to the conclusion that the standard tidal model predicts tides that are far greater than what is observed.

The standard tidal model is invalidated because –

1. The centrifugal acceleration differences cannot be eliminated from the calcs to determine the tide heights without doing violence to the law of adding force vectors to find a resultant.

2. Examining the minima and maxima of acceleration differences is an arbitrary step in the tidal analysis that seeks to eliminate acceleration differences that cannot be included into the model, without concluding to tide heights that are far greater than what is observed.

I currently believe Mathis is correct to say the standard tidal model is a failure.

JM

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Re: Response to Miles Mathis on tides

Post by Trouserman » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:37 am

johnmartin wrote:Why do we need to compare the maxima and minima when determine the influence of acceleration differences to determine tidal heights? I would have thought that the tidal heights are calculated directly once the acceleration differences are known at any point on the earths surface. I don’t see how maxima and minima have anything to do with determining tidal heights.
If by "tides" you mean any deformation of the ocean surface from a perfect sphere, then what you say makes sense. However, if by "tides" you mean what causes the ocean level to rise and fall at any given spot along the shore or in the ocean, only the time varying part matters. The equatorial bulge gives a baseline which doesn't change as the Earth rotates. Sitting on the shore, I won't have any way to notice the difference between an ocean level that varies from 0 to 2 and one that varies from 10 to 12. I'll just notice that it goes up and down over a range of 2. Historically, this variation is what people called "tides". When one looks for the physical cause of these tides, gravity provides the driving force. The equatorial bulge due to rotation is an interesting effect in its own right, but it does not contribute to the tides. It contributes only to the baseline height, and is thus considered a separate concept.
This procedure seems to be inconsistent at best. I think the tidal calcs need to account for all the acceleration differences known at any point on the earth to then calc the tide height at that point. This accounts for the known forces acting at points on earth, which is consistent with what we know from the centrifugal and gravity equations.

Comparing the maxima and minima of the acceleration differences will only tell you that there is a variation of the acceleration differences around the earth and therefore we should expect a difference in the relative heights of the tides. This is all it does.
And since historically it is the changes in height that were called tides, the difference in relative heights is all that tidal theory is asked to explain. Other factors, such as the equatorial bulge, also effect the depth of water at a given location on Earth's surface, but they are not identified with tides as such because they do not directly contribute to the changes in height at that location.
However if we want to determine the total tide heights, then we must account for all the acceleration differences that are known at each point. In this way, when we calc the total tide height, we include all the known forces. But if we do this, then we must acknowledge that the standard tidal model predicts a uniform tide around the earth that swamps the tide caused by gravity. Therefore if we are consistent with adding all the known forces, we must come to the conclusion that the standard tidal model predicts tides that are far greater than what is observed.
No, the standard model predicts an equatorial bulge due to the Earth's rotation, which provides a baseline from which tidal variations occur. It is not accurate to say that it is a tide which swamps the tides caused by gravity.
The standard tidal model is invalidated because –

1. The centrifugal acceleration differences cannot be eliminated from the calcs to determine the tide heights without doing violence to the law of adding force vectors to find a resultant.
Lest you forget, centrifugal force applies only in a chosen rotating coordinate system, and may be accounted for by actual acceleration differences in an inertial coordinate system. As I said at the outset, centrifugal forces are not real forces. They are pseudoforces one must introduce to balance F=ma in a rotating coordinate system. They are not caused by physical objects, but are artifacts of non-inertial reference frames. They cannot have physical effects that are not accounted for by analysis in an inertial frame. Clearly I have not stressed this enough when explaining why you can't just look at the centrifugal force on the near and far sides, ignoring the variation in the perpendicular direction.

Remember: The motion can be analyzed in an inertial reference frame too. The actual acceleration differences present here are those due to the Earth rotating about its own axis. In looking at only the gravitational and centrifugal forces in the rotating barycenter frame, one implicitly assumes the Earth is stationary and not rotating in that frame, which is not physically the case. It would actually be seen to be rotating about an axis precessing with a period of 27.3 days, and one would have to include the Coriolis force as well to properly account for this motion. This makes the barycenter frame a lot less attractive than at first it would appear, for taking rotational effects into account. This is another reason, in addition to the symmetry of the centrifugal force variations, that Mathis's treatment of centrifugal force is incorrect.

Centrifugal forces are a convenient way to properly account for the actual acceleration differences due to the Earth's rotation, but the proper rotating coordinate system would be one co-rotating with Earth about Earth's own axis. This gives us the equatorial bulge. It can be described separately from the tides caused by the Sun and Moon in the same way that the tidal effects of the Sun and Moon can be described separately from each other. In retrospect, I really should have emphasized this more than the symmetry of centrifugal force variations.
2. Examining the minima and maxima of acceleration differences is an arbitrary step in the tidal analysis that seeks to eliminate acceleration differences that cannot be included into the model, without concluding to tide heights that are far greater than what is observed.
It is not arbitrary, as I hope is clear from the historical perspective that we are looking for an effect that changes the water height as the Earth rotates. Also note that the rotational effects are accounted for in the standard model, in the equatorial bulge. They are simply not associated with the concept of the tides because (a) they do not contribute to the variations historically called tides, and (b) it is a different physical mechanism, so there is no reason to generalize the term "tide" to include them.

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Re: Response to Miles Mathis on tides

Post by johnmartin » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:02 pm

johnmartin wrote:
Why do we need to compare the maxima and minima when determine the influence of acceleration differences to determine tidal heights? I would have thought that the tidal heights are calculated directly once the acceleration differences are known at any point on the earths surface. I don’t see how maxima and minima have anything to do with determining tidal heights.

If by "tides" you mean any deformation of the ocean surface from a perfect sphere, then what you say makes sense.
Yes I’m saying this as well as meaning we should be consistent in how tide heights are being calculated.
However, if by "tides" you mean what causes the ocean level to rise and fall at any given spot along the shore or in the ocean, only the time varying part matters. The equatorial bulge gives a baseline which doesn't change as the Earth rotates. Sitting on the shore, I won't have any way to notice the difference between an ocean level that varies from 0 to 2 and one that varies from 10 to 12. I'll just notice that it goes up and down over a range of 2. Historically, this variation is what people called "tides". When one looks for the physical cause of these tides, gravity provides the driving force. The equatorial bulge due to rotation is an interesting effect in its own right, but it does not contribute to the tides. It contributes only to the baseline height, and is thus considered a separate concept.
Well I also mean this is well when you infer rotation contributes to the baseline height. When calculating the tides we are really should include the complete package. If there is a constant acceleration difference around the globe then this will cause a constant rise in the ocean levels and in this manner we can call the level a tide. We can do this by calculating the tide height with the centrifugal acceleration difference and then without the centrifugal acceleration difference and then see what relative heights we would expect. In this way we can see there are two vary different heights expected.

Talking of tidal differences is a good point, but it really doesn’t account for a completely thorough appraisal of the acceleration differences calculated. Your assessment is really only concerned with tidal height differences and not total tidal heights produced by all the forces calculated in the standard model.
This procedure seems to be inconsistent at best. I think the tidal calcs need to account for all the acceleration differences known at any point on the earth to then calc the tide height at that point. This accounts for the known forces acting at points on earth, which is consistent with what we know from the centrifugal and gravity equations.

Comparing the maxima and minima of the acceleration differences will only tell you that there is a variation of the acceleration differences around the earth and therefore we should expect a difference in the relative heights of the tides. This is all it does.

And since historically it is the changes in height that were called tides, the difference in relative heights is all that tidal theory is asked to explain.
It seems to hinge on what is meant by the term “tide”. If tide is a height of water surface level above the earth surface level, then the model fails. If tides are only a relative difference in height between water surface levels around the earth, then the tidal model has some success.

However, when calculating the tide heights as shown in a previous post, that author uses equations that are not related to the water surface level at other parts of the earth surface. He calculates the tide height based upon a ratio that uses R as a radius from the centre of the earth. Therefore according to this method, the tide height is determined form the earth and not relative to another water surface level.

If you believe tides are only relative heights, then this should be an integral part of the tidal calculations, otherwise the calculations are inconsistent with what the model purports to achieve. As the tidal model does not use relative tidal heights in the calcs, the model is inconsistent with what is achieves and the method used to achieve the conclusion.
Other factors, such as the equatorial bulge, also effect the depth of water at a given location on Earth's surface, but they are not identified with tides as such because they do not directly contribute to the changes in height at that location.

However if we want to determine the total tide heights, then we must account for all the acceleration differences that are known at each point. In this way, when we calc the total tide height, we include all the known forces. But if we do this, then we must acknowledge that the standard tidal model predicts a uniform tide around the earth that swamps the tide caused by gravity. Therefore if we are consistent with adding all the known forces, we must come to the conclusion that the standard tidal model predicts tides that are far greater than what is observed.

No, the standard model predicts an equatorial bulge due to the Earth's rotation, which provides a baseline from which tidal variations occur. It is not accurate to say that it is a tide which swamps the tides caused by gravity.
I believe it is accurate simply because the model is inconsistent with itself if we say the tide heights are only relative, rather than absolute heights above the earths surface.
The standard tidal model is invalidated because –

1. The centrifugal acceleration differences cannot be eliminated from the calcs to determine the tide heights without doing violence to the law of adding force vectors to find a resultant.

Lest you forget, centrifugal force applies only in a chosen rotating coordinate system, and may be accounted for by actual acceleration differences in an inertial coordinate system. As I said at the outset, centrifugal forces are not real forces. They are pseudoforces one must introduce to balance F=ma in a rotating coordinate system. They are not caused by physical objects, but are artifacts of non-inertial reference frames. They cannot have physical effects that are not accounted for by analysis in an inertial frame. Clearly I have not stressed this enough when explaining why you can't just look at the centrifugal force on the near and far sides, ignoring the variation in the perpendicular direction.
If the centrifugal force is not a real force then there is no balance of forces at the earths CM and the earth will fly off into space. Therefore the centrifugal forces, are real forces. Yes we include them as fictitious forces depending on the reference frame, but this means the centrifugal forces are fictitious only relative to the reference frame taken and not according to the real necessity of having the attractive gravity force equal another pulling force at the earth CM.
Remember: The motion can be analyzed in an inertial reference frame too. The actual acceleration differences present here are those due to the Earth rotating about its own axis. In looking at only the gravitational and centrifugal forces in the rotating barycenter frame, one implicitly assumes the Earth is stationary and not rotating in that frame, which is not physically the case. It would actually be seen to be rotating about an axis precessing with a period of 27.3 days, and one would have to include the Coriolis force as well to properly account for this motion. This makes the barycenter frame a lot less attractive than at first it would appear, for taking rotational effects into account. This is another reason, in addition to the symmetry of the centrifugal force variations, that Mathis's treatment of centrifugal force is incorrect.
For the tidal model to be realistic it must account for rotational forces.
Centrifugal forces are a convenient way to properly account for the actual acceleration differences due to the Earth's rotation, but the proper rotating coordinate system would be one co-rotating with Earth about Earth's own axis. This gives us the equatorial bulge. It can be described separately from the tides caused by the Sun and Moon in the same way that the tidal effects of the Sun and Moon can be described separately from each other. In retrospect, I really should have emphasized this more than the symmetry of centrifugal force variations.
There is no such thing as a proper rotating coordinate system. Your explanation has no impact on my argument.
2. Examining the minima and maxima of acceleration differences is an arbitrary step in the tidal analysis that seeks to eliminate acceleration differences that cannot be included into the model, without concluding to tide heights that are far greater than what is observed.

It is not arbitrary, as I hope is clear from the historical perspective that we are looking for an effect that changes the water height as the Earth rotates. Also note that the rotational effects are accounted for in the standard model, in the equatorial bulge. They are simply not associated with the concept of the tides because (a) they do not contribute to the variations historically called tides, and (b) it is a different physical mechanism, so there is no reason to generalize the term "tide" to include them.
Ok its not arbitrary, but it is inconsistent with the law of cumulative forces to find a resultant force and with the models claims to conclude to heights above the earths surface level. If the maxima and minima are taken, then the tides are only heights relative to each other and not the earths surface. Therefore the standard model is inconsistent and therefore invalid.

JM

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StevenO
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Re: Miles Mathis - clarification of a = v^2/r

Post by StevenO » Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:58 pm

What Trouserman does'nt seem to understand in any of his analyses about circular orbits or calculus is that if you start to take Δx = 1 to something < 1, you are changing the curvature of the curve you are analyzing (unless it was a straight line to begin with). It is an illegal operation on a real curve since you are analyzing a different curve than you started with.
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Re: Miles Mathis - clarification of a = v^2/r

Post by mharratsc » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:18 pm

Trouserman- I'm not much for mathematics, but I understand that in the current environs of science where mathematical rigor has overshadowed experimental analysis by orders of magnitude- mathematicians who are at least amicable to one's point of view are worth their weight in gold!

That being said- please bear in mind the fact that (as you yourself stated) most of us here are not mathematicians, many of us are not what you would call 'proponents' of Mr. Mathis' work, nor are the subjects that he expounds upon necessarily considered 'Electric Universe'.

I would hate to see a competent mathematician interested in the EU hypothesis (a rare animal it seems) disenchanted because of disagreements over something that is not essentially associated with the subject! I hope you've not developed any stereotypes about us yet! :)


Mike H.
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Trouserman
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Re: Miles Mathis - clarification of a = v^2/r

Post by Trouserman » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:08 am

StevenO wrote:What Trouserman does'nt seem to understand in any of his analyses about circular orbits or calculus is that if you start to take Δx = 1 to something < 1, you are changing the curvature of the curve you are analyzing (unless it was a straight line to begin with). It is an illegal operation on a real curve since you are analyzing a different curve than you started with.
Such a simplistic response, after all I've written here, makes me think you haven't even tried to read it carefully. I've made several challenges to Mathis's math, none of which you've really addressed. It doesn't bother you, for instance, that Mathis's calculation of a tangent line is incoherent and doesn't even yield a tangent line? It doesn't bother you that he's not consistent in his definitions of velocity and acceleration? This doesn't even make you pause in your confidence in his work?

Breaking a curve into smaller parts doesn't mean you are analyzing a different curve. It means you are analyzing smaller parts of the same curve. If you believe you understand the math better than I do (which is implicit in your statement that I don't seem to understand this), then answer just one of my questions: Why is the orbital distance around 1/8 of a circle (as Mathis calculates it) not equal to twice the orbital distance around 1/16 of the same circle (as calculated by the same method)? Or, put another way, why is the orbital distance around the second 1/16 not equal to the distance around the first 1/16? If you can't answer this or any of the challenges I pose, perhaps you should consider that I may understand better than you think.

If you really believe analyzing smaller intervals is an illegal operation, you should take another look at the final steps of Mathis's derivation of a=vorb2/2r. He says, "As t→0, b becomes the orbital velocity vector vorb, which is what we seek." So he in fact does take the limit of small intervals, when it suits him. (I do agree that when you have based your analysis on Δt=1, taking the limit of small Δt is likely to give you wrong results. You can't mix and match here without care. In particular, Mathis treats displacements and velocities as the same, which can only be remotely valid if you maintain a consistent finite interval. It is better not to confuse displacements with velocities in the first place.)

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Re: Miles Mathis - clarification of a = v^2/r

Post by Trouserman » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:50 am

Lloyd wrote:* If we laugh at Mathis's math, we'd have to laugh at our own even more, because he seems to understand it much better than most of us do. So, if he's screwed up, we're worse.
In general, I have no problem with people who do not have a strong grasp of mathematics. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and it's better for them to be complementary than all the same. However, I do object to people who aren't good at math passing themselves off as though they're geniuses overthrowing the foundations of conventional mathematics. Miles Mathis does have a certain genius for ad hoc rationalization and making reference to technical subjects in such a way that he appears to know what he's talking about, but if he really understood these subjects he would at least be able to analyze them correctly in their own terms.
* But being wrong about several things doesn't mean necessarily being wrong about all things.
A fair point.
I liked Mathis's reasoning on gravity, because it suggests that normal orbits of planets etc include an electrical component, which would seem plausible to me.
I read through a couple of his articles on the subject, and it seems as incoherent to me as his more mathematical works. As an example, in one paper he writes Newton's gravitational force as F=G(DV)(dv)/r2 and says: "Once we have density and volume in Newton’s equation, we can assign density to one field and volume to the other. We let volume define the gravitational field and we let density define the E/M field." Note that this implies gravitation and electromagnetism are multiplicative rather than additive in their effects, which makes little sense in his proposed bombardment model. Then, after a bunch of wild hand-waving about dimensional analysis, he rewrites Coulomb's electrostatic force as F=k(DV)(dv)/r2, basically saying that charge and mass are the same thing. If this were the case, the relationship between gravitational and electrostatic force would always be exactly the same. You would always find FN=(G/k)FC, but this is not the case.
To me it seems more likely that there is a pushing force from outside that gives the appearance of attraction.
What would be the origin of such a force? It's an interesting idea, but I don't know if it can be made to work.

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Re: Miles Mathis - clarification of a = v^2/r

Post by Trouserman » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:35 am

mharratsc wrote:Trouserman- I'm not much for mathematics, but I understand that in the current environs of science where mathematical rigor has overshadowed experimental analysis by orders of magnitude- mathematicians who are at least amicable to one's point of view are worth their weight in gold!

That being said- please bear in mind the fact that (as you yourself stated) most of us here are not mathematicians, many of us are not what you would call 'proponents' of Mr. Mathis' work, nor are the subjects that he expounds upon necessarily considered 'Electric Universe'.
I do not have the impression that everyone here follows Mathis's work, nor do I think it is inherently tied to EU concepts. I merely noted that some people were citing his work as though it demonstrated the failure of the conventional model and provided a possible mathematical underpinning for an EU model, and I didn't want to let that go unanswered. Don't take it as an indictment of the whole of the EU community or its ideas.
I would hate to see a competent mathematician interested in the EU hypothesis (a rare animal it seems) disenchanted because of disagreements over something that is not essentially associated with the subject! I hope you've not developed any stereotypes about us yet! :)
There are a lot of EU ideas discussed here. In my opinion, some of them have merit while others are frankly a bit crazy. Some, I have not yet formed an opinion on their plausibility. A lot of it is interesting, across the spectrum.

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Re: Miles Mathis - clarification of a = v^2/r

Post by StevenO » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:38 am

Trouserman wrote:
StevenO wrote:What Trouserman does'nt seem to understand in any of his analyses about circular orbits or calculus is that if you start to take Δx = 1 to something < 1, you are changing the curvature of the curve you are analyzing (unless it was a straight line to begin with). It is an illegal operation on a real curve since you are analyzing a different curve than you started with.
Such a simplistic response, after all I've written here, makes me think you haven't even tried to read it carefully. I've made several challenges to Mathis's math, none of which you've really addressed. It doesn't bother you, for instance, that Mathis's calculation of a tangent line is incoherent and doesn't even yield a tangent line? It doesn't bother you that he's not consistent in his definitions of velocity and acceleration? This doesn't even make you pause in your confidence in his work?
No, your ad hominems show your prejudice and that you have not understood that the equality Δx = 1 is an essential part of Miles' approach to the calculus of finite differences. Not understanding the basics invalidates any other remarks you have made on these topics. You have written a lot but it is out of the proper context. (Miles admits his slope calculation approach still needs work. BTW.)
Trouserman wrote:Breaking a curve into smaller parts doesn't mean you are analyzing a different curve. It means you are analyzing smaller parts of the same curve. If you believe you understand the math better than I do (which is implicit in your statement that I don't seem to understand this), then answer just one of my questions: Why is the orbital distance around 1/8 of a circle (as Mathis calculates it) not equal to twice the orbital distance around 1/16 of the same circle (as calculated by the same method)? Or, put another way, why is the orbital distance around the second 1/16 not equal to the distance around the first 1/16? If you can't answer this or any of the challenges I pose, perhaps you should consider that I may understand better than you think.
That's another ad hominem that shows your misunderstanding. Changing the size of your ruler (the number line, Δx) only does'nt change the curve if the curve is a straight line, which is not the starting point of the calculus. Take a simple example y=x^2. Changing Δx from 1 to 0.5 changes Δy from 1 to 0.25. Y scales quadratically lower than x. Now your position is that the curves for Δx=1 and Δx=0.5 are identical? They cannot be fitted on top of eachother by scaling x and y.
Trouserman wrote:If you really believe analyzing smaller intervals is an illegal operation, you should take another look at the final steps of Mathis's derivation of a=vorb2/2r. He says, "As t→0, b becomes the orbital velocity vector vorb, which is what we seek." So he in fact does take the limit of small intervals, when it suits him. (I do agree that when you have based your analysis on Δt=1, taking the limit of small Δt is likely to give you wrong results. You can't mix and match here without care. In particular, Mathis treats displacements and velocities as the same, which can only be remotely valid if you maintain a consistent finite interval. It is better not to confuse displacements with velocities in the first place.)
In his own words Miles states here: "I have applied the Pythagorean theorem over the last interval of the series—an interval which is not zero. I treat it as a real interval, not as a mystical infinitesimal interval, nor as an "evanescent" (Newton's word) interval. It is a normal interval* and there is nothing to keep one from using the Pythagorean theorem over that interval.", which contradicts your statement. I think Miles is not taking displacements and velocities as the same, he takes the radius of the circle as a velocity.
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Miles Mathis Roundup of Physics Questions

Post by jjohnson » Tue Jan 12, 2010 9:35 pm

and here it is, dated 10 January 2010

ELEVEN BIG QUESTIONS
YOU SHOULD HAVE
FOR THE STANDARD MODEL
(INSTEAD OF 1100)

by Miles Mathis

http://www.milesmathis.com

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webolife
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Re: Miles Mathis

Post by webolife » Wed Jan 13, 2010 1:09 pm

Trouserman,
A couple points:
1. Be careful, you may be making an assumption of circularity in orbits. Time, speed and distance of travel all change with respect to each other on an ellipse.
2. Gravity as a force "pushing from outside" vs "attracting" from inside a system is entirely tenable and observable. Without knowing the source of a force, there is no way to determine which of the two it is, push or pull. Attempts to locate mythical "gravitons" in atoms are fruitless. If the earth were completely hollow, as some [not I] on this forum consider, it would still hold together, despite there being nothing inside to "pull" it. Considering the case of a basketball, it is easy to see that the force holding the ball in its spherical shape is outwardly originated, inwardly directed toward an insignificant mass at the center. Wrt EU, voltage works the same way... the push toward "ground" can be easily seen as such... in fact it is nigh unto impossible to conceptualize any "attractive" force in physics as a "suck".
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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junglelord
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Re: Miles Mathis

Post by junglelord » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:00 pm

Miles on Tesla, Aether, Einstein, Fields, Space, Definitions, who was right?
Einstein was a theorist, not an experimenter like Tesla. He did not know of the foundational E/M field. Almost no one except Tesla has known of it, even among other specialists in electricity. The field I am talking about has concerned only quantum physicists up to now (since it is the field mediated by their ridiculous “messenger photons”). So Einstein could not be expected to have included this field in his theories of the macro-world. But he never denied the existence or importance of the electromagnetic field, and he would never have denied the possibility that other unknown fields existed, even ubiquitous and powerful fields. He would only have denied, based on his theory, that they would be considered the “background of space.” As he showed, space has no background except the motion of light.

He is correct about this, and it is one of two major reasons I refuse to call my foundational E/M field an ether. The other reason is also historical. Tesla called his field an ether, since it was ubiquitous and powerful. It allowed many things to happen, and caused many things to happen. It was fundamental, as fundamental as gravity, or moreso. While admitting all that, I refrain from referring to my foundational E/M field as an ether because it does not fit the even older and more famous definition of ether as the mediator and facilitator of all motion. According to the 19th definitions, the ether was invented to explain the motion of light. It seemed to physicists at that time that light needed a medium through which to propagate, just as sound needed air through which to propagate. Especially as regards the wave motion, it was not understood how light could show this wave without a medium.

Using stacked spins, I have shown how light moves in a wave pattern without the need of any medium. The wave is internal to each photon, and the analogy to sound waves in air completely breaks down. The wave motion of light is not a pattern in a medium, it is real motion of each quantum. You will say, “Motion relative to what?” Motion relative to the previous position, or relative to the void, or relative to a graph you superimpose over the moving quantum. Motion does not require a medium, it only requires a background. That background is automatically created relative to previous positions. You don’t need a medium to describe the motion of quanta. You only need a mathematical or diagrammed background, and previous positions give you that.

In fact, requiring a physical medium for all motion is a reductio ad absurdum. Say that we do define Tesla’s “ether” as the medium. Say that we do define my foundational E/M field as the medium against which the speed of light is calculated. We obviously run into an immediate problem, since my field or Tesla’s is made up of some kind of photon or other emission, fluid or particulate. At that point, you are defining the motion of light against a background of invisible E/M photons. But that brings up many questions: 1) Which photon is more fundamental? The light photon or the photon that transmits the E/M field? 2) How can you measure one against the other? Aren’t they both going c? Or, if they are not going exactly c in all situations, won’t they both vary in the same way for the same reasons? 3) If the light photon is moving relative to the E/M or ether photon, what is the ether photon moving relative to? Don’t we require a sub-ether as a background to the ether photon? 4) It seems we need something that is not moving to be our medium, but Tesla’s ether field, like my foundational E/M field, is made up of moving particles.

The only thing that is not moving is the void. But calling the void an ether is pretty much admitting defeat. If the void is the ether, then Einstein was basically correct. Einstein’s only real crime was desiring to put a finer point on a thing than most people care to put on it. Most people today who want an ether simply mean they want the standard model to quit ignoring the E/M field in all its contexts, and to quit interpreting Einstein in narrow, abstract mathematical ways. To this extent I agree with them. To this extent, Einstein would have agreed with them, too.

Now, Tesla disagreed with Einstein on many things while they were both alive. I am not ignorant of that fact, nor am I denying it. For instance, he said,

I hold that space cannot be curved, for the simple reason that it can have no properties. . . . Of properties we can only speak when dealing with matter filling the space. To say that in the presence of large bodies space becomes curved is equivalent to stating that something can act upon nothing. I, for one, refuse to subscribe to such a view.1

However, if we study that quote a bit more carefully, we find something very interesting. Tesla tells us that space can have no properties, since it is a “nothing”. Only matter can have properties, not space. I agree with him completely. And, although I accept the numerical findings of General Relativity, I do not accept curved space any more than Tesla. But, if space has no properties, that must also rule out the classical ether. The pre-Einstein, pre-Tesla ether was the giving of properties to space. According to this idea, space had or might have qualities such as permittivity, resistance, pressure, and so on. At the very least space must have structure, since it was this structure that explained the wave motion.

Curiously, current theories of space also give space many qualities. Physicists who claim to have no time for classical ether arguments end up giving space pressure and materiality and so on, consisting of virtual particle pairs or bosons or a host of other theoretical particles or properties. Perhaps most importantly, the current cosmological constant Λ gives space an expansion, as I have reminded my readers in other papers.

Tesla would have disagreed with classical ether theory just as strongly as he would now disagree with current standard model theory, since both theories give properties to space. Maxwell’s ether was both ether and medium, but Tesla’s ether was neither. Tesla’s ether was in fact a field--a field inhabiting empty space. And empty space is neither ether nor medium. For Tesla, space was not a medium or an ether, it was a background. And although Tesla disagreed with Einstein here as well, Einstein was less wrong than the others. Einstein agreed that space was neither medium nor ether--if either word included the idea of mechanical or kinetic properties. For Einstein, space was a background.

Of course, Einstein gave this background the property of curvature, but I have shown that GR can ditch curved space with no lasting theoretical effects. If you turn the field inside out like I have, you rid yourself of curved space, the tensor calculus, and all the needless additions to relativity, while keeping the time differentials and other transforms that have been shown to work. This means that Einstein and Tesla were in agreement at the most fundamental level, since in their field theories both were reacting against the physicality of the classical ether. Neither of them believed in it. Einstein’s only problem was keeping a residue of that ether in his curved field, with a curvature he didn’t even require. As Tesla pointed out, this curvature gave Einstein’s space a property, and that gave Einstein’s theory an inconsistency. Einstein created his field equations in order to bypass the classical ether, and he wanted to bypass the ether because it wasn't logical. But then he gave space a curvature, which wasn't logical either. He thought curvature was mathematical only, but in GR a curve acts as structure, and structure is a property. In fact, it is a mechanical property. It is both mechanical and kinetic, since it is the ultimate explanation for motion. In Einstein’s field equations, curvature is the ultimate cause of both motion and (apparent) force, therefore it must be both mechanical and kinetic, by the definitions of those two words. If curvature in GR is not mechanical, nothing in the universe is mechanical. The standard model can claim that GR is only geometric, but the geometry is the ultimate cause of motion and force. This must make it mechanical and kinematic and kinetic, all three.

This fact contains a great deal of irony, since it means that Einstein actually had more of an ether than Tesla. Tesla called his E/M field an ether, but it was a field, not an ether. Einstein called his field a field, but it was an ether, not a field. Curvature gave his field a mechanical property, and a fundamental field that has a mechanical property is not a field, it is an ether.

So, Einstein was wrong about curvature, but right about the ether. He agreed with Tesla that the ether, as a quality of space, was illogical and non-mechanical. He stated that the motion of light required no ether, and he was correct.

And Tesla agreed with him. Tesla’s light, electricity, or other forms of radiated matter required no ether of the classical sort. He might call his particles or fluid an ether, but the motion of this ether did not require a medium. It couldn’t, since Tesla said that space was nothing. If the “nothing” exists, then the classical ether does not exist. If there is a void, there is no ether. If the void exists anywhere, in any way, then light must travel through it. If light can travel through it, then light requires no ether for propagation. That is simple logic. If light can travel as a wave without an ether, then the entire classical argument for the ether collapses. Once that is understood, then all modern ethers should no longer be called ethers. They should be called fields. Fields made up of radiated sub-particles or fluids are not ethers, they are fields. I think this is a very important distinction. It clears up a lot of fake and manufactured and unimportant differences between people like Einstein and Tesla.
http://milesmathis.com/tesla.html
I am leaning in the direction that the magneto-dielectric field is the field in question. Tesla is indeed correct.
The different spin ratios create the different field effects. Is that not correct Steven?
I agree, I often say Aether, but I have identified the term to represent a Field.
This is a important point that Miles mentions, the older aether definiton was a medium vs a Field.
The Magneto-Dielectric Field is what is missing in Electric Phenomenon study.
So, to sum up, Tesla and the proponents of the ether were and are correct insofar as they are demanding that a powerful, mostly unknown field exists, linked to E/M--a ubiquitous and fundamental field mostly ignored and mis-defined by the standard model. They are correct that it exists at all levels, quantum and terrestrial and cosmic. They are correct that it may be dubbed “creational”, since any fundamental emission field would have to be admitted to be “creational” in one sense: it causes everything and its cause is unknown. They are only incorrect when they assume that Einstein’s theory forbids this field, or when they assume that Einstein would have any serious qualms about integrating this field into his UFT, given what we now know. I am quite certain that Einstein both would do it, and could do it. This “ether” can easily be incorporated into Relativity, as I know since I have done it. We take Tesla’s field and slip it right into Newton’s old equation. Then we do transforms on it (when necessary). This is precisely what I have done in my unified field.

All the theoretical roadblocks are only in people’s heads. They are only political. We have many parties squabbling over secondary matters, squabbling over misunderstandings and manufactured differences. The truth is that Einstein and Tesla are both correct about almost everything, and that we can stir them into a new pot without much trouble at all.
http://milesmathis.com/tesla.html

I have too ask, if everthing is expanding, would the Sun and Earth not engulf, or does the Field expand as well, so the space b/t the two remains the same?
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StevenO
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Re: Miles Mathis

Post by StevenO » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:28 am

junglelord wrote: I am leaning in the direction that the magneto-dielectric field is the field in question. Tesla is indeed correct.
The different spin ratios create the different field effects. Is that not correct Steven?
I agree, I often say Aether, but I have identified the term to represent a Field.
This is a important point that Miles mentions, the older aether definiton was a medium vs a Field.
The Magneto-Dielectric Field is what is missing in Electric Phenomenon study.
The "Magneto-Dielectric Field" is not a different field. All matter emits a charge field through emission of photons. The linear motion of the photons powers the Electric field, the spin of the emitted photons powers the Magnetic field. How, depends on the configuration of protons and electrons inside the field.

Since this charge field was always unknowingly present in physics experiments it has been hidden inside equations, like Newton's gravitational equation. Similarly, the gravity field was hidden in Coulomb's equation or the anomalous magnetic moment of the electron. Identifying this field and showing that both Newton's gravitational equation and Coulomb's equation are different forms of a UFT is one of Miles' greatest contributions to physics.

I'm sure that this charge field was recognized and labelled "ether" by Tesla.

I do not agree with Miles and Tesla that space is a "nothing", since space has at least one property called "distance". For me space is the linear motion of photons. Matter is then the spin motion of photons in all it's different forms.
junglelord wrote:I have too ask, if everthing is expanding, would the Sun and Earth not engulf, or does the Field expand as well, so the space b/t the two remains the same?
Everything expands, even the rulers of space, photons, and next to photons there is nothing. So, yes, the fields expand as well.
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Re: Miles Mathis

Post by seasmith » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:41 pm

‘Aether is an all-inclusive term, not a definition. ‘Field is a fuzzy term for an implied cause producing an observable effect.
For purpose of discussion, we can call these effects force-fields or waves, hence the four: electric, magnetic, dielectric and magneto-dielectric;
have measurable vectors.

I agree Steven, that space has distance. Three to be exact, in the physics.
Those three ‘spatial dimensions’ can contain, as a volume, the three wave-forms of length- spin-rotation ie: electric-magnetic-dielectric.
The fourth detectable vector/wave-function/force-field is more difficult to graph, but can intuitively be conceived as volume-in-motion.
By definition, this forth [magneto-dielectric] motion engenders more space, or expansion.
I tend to visualize this ~apparent~ motion as dual-vortex/4D Lissajous/enfolding torus/etc,etc, and
completing the aetheric circuit.

The same circuit could probably be described in particle motions as well.
Miles does it very admirably with one particle.

Neither model describes the power source or polarity of the aetheric cycle, imo.

s

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