The case of the Puma-Punku megaliths

[moses]

I was watching a video that was in Russian. Apparently, they have come to the conclusion that there was advanced societies back then that had achieved nuclear weaponry. There are some places in the Amazon that show "rock vitrification." The entense heat needed to cause this could indicate a nuclear blast. The way that the huge rock parts to these structures at Puma Punku are broken apart and the way they are laying down, may indicate some sort of downward blast force. Has anyone taken radioactive readings?
enrgmn1946
Hello enrgmn1946.
That probably makes you 63 but that's all we know about you !

The intense heat was probably due to interplanetary thunderbolts.
Even if radiation is found because such a thunderbolt could
produce transmutation and form radioactive elements. However
I'm all for there being an advanced civilisation before the
Earth suffered cataclysm.
Mo

[GaryN]

Ancient Aliens-Puma Punku.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jafd9_IZCk

[ddaveo]

Interesting thread

When I read about ancient megaliths, I often read that tradition states the stones were transported by levitation performed by a priest or chief or other important person. And when archaeologists claim they can find no evidence of rollers or moving equipment, or even roads in some cases, I start to wonder. As GaryN said,

how many times do we need to be beat over the head with a 2x4 before we accept the fact? Or are we so afraid of the impications that we just can not even consider the idea as fact?

After all, I think many people here are willing to accept that our ancestors weren't totally mad when it came to recording battles of the gods and a polar sun, is anyone willing to consider that they weren't totally mad when they spoke of having abilities that we can barely understand?

The Easter Island heads and the sunken city of Nan Madol are two examples of ancient megalithic sites where the stone blocks were supposedly moved into place using levitation.

And if they used levitation to move them ... we could be a long way off figuring out how they cut them

[mague]

Its not to hard to be smarter then a scientific culture that beliefs into spacetime curvature. Any four year old understands that gravity points towards the barycenter. Its bending nothing but sunflowers and similar objects.

The barycenter is always the sum of an objects subobjects vectors. See wire dancer...
For any force there is an opposite force which follows the same rules. Zero gravity is not the absence of gravity, but the oposite vector. In binray this is the tiny difference between 1 and 0.

A simple solution is sound for example. A vibrating object has less friction resistance. Studying sound, resonance and its vectors migth offer methods to move heavy objects easily.

Air is not weightless. Its stacking its gravity ontop of the stones gravity. But since build airplanes we know that air is able to push up a plane.

Our ancestor just enjoyed thinking more the we do Our current dogma is rather to belief that anything is possible as long as sufficient energy is available. Unfortunately there is only a limited amount of healthy energy available.

[Levatio]

Perhaps, when moving those stone with 40 man the same time, they chanted very loudly, and resonating?

[mague]

Perhaps, when moving those stone with 40 man the same time, they chanted very loudly, and resonating?

One of the first missionaries in Tibet, i think it was someone from sweden, reported that Buddhist moved huge block with trumpets and bells. Jerichos walls crumbled...

But lets forget about "myths". This one needs 0 people to pull or push.

A simple laboratory demonstration of friction motion
consists of a mass that can move freely on an inclined beam
supported at both ends, and a shaker that vibrates the beam
and its supports, as shown in Fig. 13. Under a suitable com-
bination of excitation frequency and amplitude, the mass can
move up or down the inclined beam without losing contact.
The frequencies at which conveyance takes place correspond
to a natural frequency of the beam and its supports, whereby
each point on the beam surface follows an elliptical trajec-
tory. During oscillations, the mass on the beam experiences a
larger contact force, hence a larger friction force, during one-
half of the cycle. Such uneven friction forces during each
half of a cycle of oscillations produce a nonzero average
force on the mass along the beam. This example of flight-
free conveyance points to the significance of system dynam-
ics in friction problems and suggests a reconsideration of the
classical definition of the coefficient of friction which does
not account for the presence of vibrations within the system.
A similar demonstration shows a wheel in contact with the
beam rotating clockwise or counterclockwise as a result of
changing the frequency of excitation that changes the direc-
tion of the phasor of surface vibrations.

Just as vibrations can loosen bolted joints, they can be
used to reduce friction. For example, during the cold drawing
of wires, vibrations assist in reducing friction between the
wire and die. The underlying mechanism of friction reduc-
tion is similar to friction-induced motion in the sense that
contact forces are manipulated to reduce the average friction
force during a cycle of oscillation.124 ­126

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_url?h ... i=scholarr

[2erlee]

Hi all.

http://www.geopolymer.org/

The Romans had different types of cement that could even set up in water.

I came across information about the above link several years ago. J. Davidovits did research about geopolymers and concluded that the pyramids and monuments of Ancient Egypt were not built by quarrying large blocks and then dragged into place by legions of slaves. They were formed in place by using, for lack of a better term, artificial rock. We use the same idea with our modern countertops.

The Puma-Punku megaliths could have been made, not by quarrying, but by using the same processes as the pyramid building blocks. It doesn't take advanced tooling or tools the ancients didn't have, to work the stone "cement" while it is still in a plastic stage. (before it hardens)

I found the idea fascinating and like EU, to be a better explanation than the experts saying "I don't know."

Ron in Colorado

[johnm33]

Flicking through the channels I happened on this guy being interviewed http://brienfoerster.com/projects/

[Lloyd]

Forster
* I see Forster seems to research ancient aliens and the fossil skulls of ancient aliens. Forster is also interviewed a bit in the following.
Video on Puma Punku
* Below I discuss this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT6k2NY5Riw. The link for Gary N's video didn't work.
The Land Rose Up - Velikovsky
* In this video it mentions that the area is over 12,000 feet elevation, which is above the tree line. That reminded me of Velikovsky's discussion of it in one of his books, maybe Earth in Upheaval. I don't have the book with me, but I found a quote from this Google book: http://books.google.com/books?id=7k7KdM ... tiahuanaco.

There are [At Tiahuanaco] admittedly still many old artificial terraces that the ancient population laid out, but they are 5,600 meters above sea level and even higher. Corn (maize), for example, does not, however, ripen at this altitude. For this reason (Velikovsky, 1980, p. 102), "the then president of the Royal Geographical Society, Leonard Darwin, offered the presumption that the mountains may have risen significantly after the construction of the city." I emphasize the comment: maybe the Andes first arose after the construction of the city. By assuming that the Andes could have been lower a few thousand years ago at the time Tiahuanaco was erected, the terraces make sense, because, with better climatic conditions prevailing then, even maize could have ripened.

* I think Velikovsky discussed the area quite a bit beyond that, so it would be good to have his book to reread on that. It seems that he said maize was found to grow in the area in ancient times. Maybe I'll ask Cardona what he thinks about the land rising up after the city was built. It seems that it would probably not fit into his reconstruction, since he'd likely place the last period of major continental movement at about 10,000 years ago, which may have been before any civilization that could build cities was possible.
Machining
* The video shows a piece of granite or diorite masonry from Puma Punku and Chris Dunn used a laser and a diamond-studded blade to cut parts of the piece. The original cut of the masonry was smoother than either of his cuts. The blade cut was better than the laser cut, but it left small circular marks. They speculated that such circular marks may have been on the original, but may have weathered smooth over the millennia.
Great Pyramids
* Chris Dunn said on a radio show once that some of the granite masonry in the Great Pyramid and at another Egyptian site showed marks like those made by modern machine tools. Davidovits took a sample of limestone block near the Great Pyramid and found that under a microscope, there were air bubbles in it, as well as human hairs etc. He also noticed that marine shells etc were thicker toward the bottoms of blocks. This was good evidence that the limestone blocks were poured like concrete. If the Puma Punku masonry blocks were also made as concrete, it would have had to be one that could make granite or diorite. They said in the video that the only thing harder than diorite is diamond.
Sumerian Writing
* The video mentioned that a bowl was found near Tiahuanaco, which is very near Puma Punku, and it had Sumerian cuneiform writing etc on it. The most prominent god depicted on the site is said to have whiskers like the Sumerians, and unlike Native Americans, who did not grow their whiskers.
Destruction, Flood
* Some of the structures in the area remain intact, but much is also broken up and shifted around. They said there was a 6 to 10 foot layer of mud from a flood there. Someone said there are bits of material from the site scattered all around on the ground, as if from explosions. If the land rose up catastrophically after the site was built, flooding could have occurred at that time. Maybe electrical explosions too.

* Here are two images of a piece of structure from the site. The center image is a few inches long and is from the end of the image on the left which is 4 to 6 feet long, I think. The groove in the left image doesn't look extremely straight, but the one in the center one does, though it's much smaller. How the drill holes were made in such hard stone is hard to answer, although, if it were possible to make the stone like concrete, it would be easier to imagine, although it would still be hard to make forms precise enough to make these.
* The large H-shaped blocks on the right (turned 90 degrees) may be identical copies, mass-produced. They're close to 4 feet tall, each. Chris Dunn showed how the grooves in them may have been used to hold hinges for carrying the blocks with a crane or some other lifting machine. One person thought the blocks could have been rearranged to make a track for something like a railgun to launch air or spacecraft. They show an ancient airplane-like model which was shown to be able to fly.

[starbiter]

Instead of land rising up causing terraces for agriculture to be useless because they are so high above sea level, there might be another option. It seems much easier for sea level to change than for mountains to move up or down. Not that land changing altitude is impossible. Especially if the axis or rotation of Earth change. But if the location of the equator should change, the level of the sea could change by 2 miles or more. Polar regions were warm enough for coral to grow in the sea. This implies a possible change in the location of the the poles, and by extension the equator. A change in the length of the day would also effect the 13.25 mile bulge of water at the equator. A 10% change in rotation speed would also effect the bulge, either up or down. If the water line was increased by two miles, the terraces now too high for agriculture, might be a garden spot. The atmosphere would be more dense. Just a different way of looking at the terrace problem that Dr Velikovsky mentioned.

michael

[moses]

michael, the evidence is clear to me that North and South America were retarded in their rotation, causing the Andes and the Rockies to form from the Pacific oceanic crust pushing into the Americas. Other evidence is the spreading of the Atlantic Ocean and the clincher is the Pacific Ocean crust pushing past the bottom of South America.

It is almost a certainty to me that this happened at the same time as the geological effects that you describe happening in North America. And thus I feel you are not accurately expressing what actually happened.
Mo

[johnm33]

I thought I'd look at some of brien foersters videos which start here
http://www.youtube.com/user/brienfoerster
This one is very difficult for me to explain if this child was born this way lots of questions occur to me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GcfS75n ... ature=plcp
I've kind of known about these skulls for years but have previously accepted the mainstream view [how often is that a good idea] that they're 'deformed' human skulls, and they are clearly very human but very different, on the interview I chanced on there was also a picture of a foetus with the same charecteristics. So were these hybrids or a lost branch of the human family?
Someone else on the forum possibly this thread raised the issue of oceanic flora/fauna in lake titicaca, and I've wondered about this for years was it because the lake was previously connected to the ocean and became isolated by a massive uplift as described by Hapgood, where a shift of the rotational axis causes land near the old equator to sqeeze togetherand rise as it compresses and chasms to form where the new equator is established, or due to the earths rotation being altered by a passing 'body' causing the oceans to rise out of their depths and spill over the land. Has anyone done a dna test on these creatures to see when the split occured? Is the amount and chemical make up of salt in the Uyuni and Coipasa salt pans what you would find if the drainage basin in which the lake stands was filled with seawater, and then diluted drained and dried out in the salt pans.
If this was the case it would mean the alignments at the temples would be useless for calculating dates. As Starbiter sats the level of the ocean would change too ,perhaps there are old shorelines between the lake and the pacific. If there was a giant flood it would explain why no iron machinery is found if thats what they used.
Another question raised here was the possiblity of a lime concrete being used at Giza, I think the oldest 'concrete' are the floors of the temples in malta from 8000bc [? i think] which for years were thought to be bedrock. Also this would explain why they had a fancy hydraulic system for raising water up from the nile. It would also explain why some of the work was reputedly carried out at night, if you look at modern stone clad buildings they are all multi faceted due to the almost impossibility of getting the bed depth 100% correct behind it, however using a lime based concrete/render it would be easier to agitate the air out of this then level it off and polish it to a finish in sections, the only problem being it would have to be kept moist and allowed to set over 6 weeksor more to prevent cracking, this would be more readily accomlished if the main work was done out of direct sunlight and the polishing kept up during the day. This would entail using a prodigious amount of water over a long period and could be the explanation for the dating of the sphinx enclosure by J.A.West et al.
The pantheon in Rome is worth a look at in this regard.
Lastly there was an explosion over bolivia in 562ce like tunguska, I think investigated by a texas university which may have caused the damage.
john

[starbiter]

Hello John: This link to Earth in Upheaval might answer a few of your questions about Peru.

http://books.google.com/books?id=T3SheP ... &q&f=false

A friend mentioned that gravity might have been different during times in the past. Just one more wild card. There are so many variables when it comes to the depth of the oceans.

Forum member Venn found the link below. It shows what would happen if the Earth slowly stopped rotating. If the process was a reversal over a few days or weeks there would be a slosh of the oceans added to the flooding of the poles [wherever the poles might have been].

http://www.esri.com/news/arcuser/0610/nospin.html

If the Sun now rises where it used to set the slosh would be to the NW. If the Earth began to rotate in the opposite direction, the waters would be drawn back to the equator causing a return flood, as described in Worlds in Collision.

Page 187 Venus in the Folklore of the Indians

http://www.scribd.com/isissolaris/d/217 ... -Collision

michael

[johnm33]

Michael Thanks for those links, funnily enough whilst looking for more of the 'theban' plays [trying to get a handle on all the characters around akhenatun] amongst old books in junk shops i came across earth in upheaval, worlds in collision and ages in chaos for 50p each. Despite lots of people seeming to have been interested enough to investigate since the time of Velikovsky none of them have added anything, as far as i can see, to what he set out in earth in upheaval [which I've almost read]
John

[starbiter]

Hello John: Now You know why Nick C and i recommend Earth in Upheaval. Worlds in Collision gets better every time i read it. Ages in Chaos left me short. Same with the other chronology books. They are dry and confusing, IMHO. I just listen to experts battle it out concerning chronology. Venn from the forum has my vote for now, but his is a work in progress. He proposes a shorter chronology than Dr Velikovsky. The future should be interesting. If digs can be done with what's already known the results could be amazing.

From your post i assume you've read Oedipus and Akhnaton. It's been a long time for me since reading, but i enjoyed it very much when i read it.

michael