Electric Tornadoes - a complete theory at last!

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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bboyer
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Re: Electric Tornadoes - a complete theory at last!

Unread post by bboyer » Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:50 am

MrAmsterdam wrote:
1 Electric vortices have been replicated in labs, hasn't it?
Here's one example, from the journal Science, from June 1970 yet:

Science 12 June 1970:
Vol. 168. no. 3937, pp. 1349 - 1351
DOI: 10.1126/science.168.3937.1349
Prev | Table of Contents | Next

Articles

Miniature Whirlwinds Produced in the Laboratory by High-Voltage Electrical Discharges
R. T. Ryan 1 and B. Vonnegut 2
1 Arthur D. Little, Inc., 15 Acorn Park, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02140
2 State University of New York Albany, New York 12203

Laboratory experiments showed that under certain conditions of vorticity the electrical heatinig produced by a high-voltage discharge at atmospheric pressure can cause the formation of a miniature tornado-like vortex. Once it forms, this vortex stabilizes the electrical discharge along its axis and changes its character from that of a spark to high-pressure variety of a glow discharge. Electrical and dynamic parameters were measured. By relating observations and measurements made in these experiments to previous work and to analogous situations in nature, it is concluded that the heating produced by electrical discharges in a large storm may play a significant role in forming and maintaining natural tornadoes.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/a ... /3937/1349
Unfortunately, it requires a fee or subscription to access the full article. 'Specially like that first highlighted part. ;)
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CharlesChandler
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Re: Electric Tornadoes - a complete theory at last!

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:05 pm

There is, no doubt, an electric current inside the tornado. This has been confirmed by a variety of methods, and has been estimated at 100~250 amps. That doesn't seem like a lot, but when motivated by tens of millions of volts over a distance of several kilometers, that works out to hundreds of millions of watts. And that's enough power to make the current a reentrant thermodynamic factor as well. In other words, the low pressure inside the updraft reduces the resistance of the air, which opens up a conduit for the flow of electricity. The electric current heats the air, which reinforces the updraft. Hence the updraft and the current inside it are mutually-enhancing, and this results in a self-stabilizing concentration of forces.

But such thinking drives us head-long toward a brick wall. Instinctively we would frame the concept of an "electric tornado" as a discharge between the cloud and the ground. Yet if that was the case, tornadoes would display an unmistakable preference for differences in conductivity in the ground. For example, they would latch onto things like railroad tracks and rivers, and refuse to break away until the storm had moved closer to some other high-conductivity feature on the ground. Yet this is definitely not the case. Thousands of tornado tracks have been analyzed, and the cases where the tornadoes appeared to follow geographic features were simple coincidences, well within statistical predictions. This left the researchers scratching their heads, wondering how there could be that much current, and no distinct preference for conductivity in the ground.

Yet if we look at an even broader set of observations, it all makes sense. The air flowing into the tornado has developed an electric charge. This, also, has been confirmed by a variety of methods. The sign of the charge is positive, and the strength of the charge induces an opposite charge in the surface of the Earth, resulting in an electrostatic attraction that makes the air hug the ground as it approaches the tornado. The charge inside the cloud is negative. So while the inflowing air is attracted to the Earth, the negative charges inside the cloud are attracted to the positively-charged air flowing into the vortex. The low pressure inside the vortex enables the flow of current. But it's not from the cloud down to the ground, but rather, from the cloud down into the air flowing into the tornado. Where positive and negative charges meet inside the tornado, the positive charge that was binding the air to the surface is neutralized. So the air is now free to ascend in response to the low pressure aloft. It is also heated by the current, which makes it rise faster, and which makes it an even better conductor.

At first blush, this appears to be a strange concoction of extraneous facts, that magically develop these extreme properties. But these are well-known facts, and the mutually-enhancing nature of these forces could only result in an extreme concentration of the effect. And this is precisely the nature of tornadoes. And while there are many theories concerning the nature of tornadoes, there is only one way to work all of the way through it, with no spare parts left on the table when we're done. Tornadoes are the result of the interactions among several different types of factors. They are fundamentally a fluid dynamic phenomenon, and fluid dynamics can account for 99% of the overall amount of energy getting expended. But fluid dynamics can only account for about 15% of the energy getting expended directly at the surface of the Earth. So we can get a vortex with the fluid dynamic factors present, but not one as robust as a tornado, and not one that is so well-defined at the surface. The EM factors, by themselves, can account for some of the phenomena, but fall well short of a complete description. But when we put it all together, we find that tornadoes do not pick up a little bit of force from fluid dynamics, and a little bit more from EM, and such adds up to 100%. Rather fluid dynamics has 15%, EM has 15%, and the combinatorial effects add up to 100%.

Within this framework, the complete range of distinctive properties of tornadoes can be explained.
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Volcanoes
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The Electromagnetic Nature of Tornadic Supercell Thunderstorms

keeha
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Re: Electric Tornadoes - a complete theory at last!

Unread post by keeha » Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:15 am

http://www.accuweather.com/blogs/news/s ... dofree.asp
While the so-called Snowmageddon and Snowicane tm blizzards that book-ended the month got much of the nation's attention, not a single tornado was reported in the United States during February 2010.
According to the Storm Prediction Center (SPC), no tornadoes were reported last month.
"It's a phenomenal feat that we went a month without a tornado," said AccuWeather.com Expert Senior Meteorologist Henry Margusity.
If the statistic stands, it would be the first tornado-free February in at least 60 years.
February typically has 22 tornadoes on average, based on reports dating back to 1950 from the SPC.

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Ion01
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Re: Electric Tornadoes - a complete theory at last!

Unread post by Ion01 » Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:56 am

Here is a really interesting video of the electrical effects of volcanoes and tornadoes!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gW-Txy8pmc

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Re: Electric Tornadoes - a complete theory at last!

Unread post by MrAmsterdam » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:58 am

Ion01 wrote:Here is a really interesting video of the electrical effects of volcanoes and tornadoes!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gW-Txy8pmc
Wow! beautiful to watch!

That reminds me of the following thing. If you have experimental evidence and replications, it means you are adjusting different parameters in your electric tornado formula.

As Charles Chandler is stating
"Tornadoes are the result of the interactions among several different types of factors. "
Okay, let nature do the experiment for you! Let nature play with the parameters!

1. Now you have a perfect example of a small scale tornado near a vulcano accompanied by lightning. Those 'vulcano' tornados must use different smaller scale input energy then those massive ones.

2. Lets take the dustdevils on Mars. Low density gas, low or zero humidity in the atmosphere.

It would be very interesting to compare those 2 different tornados with the bigger ones here on earth.

Somehow I think this idea already crossed Charles mind....;-)
Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality. -Nikola Tesla -1934

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Re: Electric Tornadoes - a complete theory at last!

Unread post by Vinyasi » Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:24 pm

CharlesChandler wrote:Many people have believed for a long time that tornadoes are electromagnetic. The question is: HOW?

The first-blush answer, that tornadoes are slow, sustained electrostatic discharges between the ground and the cloud, asks more questions than it answers. There isn't enough electrostatic potential under a supercell thunderstorm to cause something as energetic as a tornado, and even if there was, a sustained electrostatic discharge would not act like a tornado.

Nevertheless, there is quite an abundance of obvious evidence that powerful electromagnetic forces are at work in tornadoes. So we are left with the original question: HOW?

A detailed analysis of a wide variety of the properties of supercell thunderstorms and tornadoes, and a thorough review of the combinatorial complexity of all of the physical forces involved, has yielded a new theory. Thermodynamics cannot explain tornadoes, and neither can electromagnetism, all by itself. But a combination of the two CAN. When ALL of the factors are taken into account, it becomes possible to understand how supercell thunderstorms and tornadoes are fundamentally thermodynamic, but that the thermodynamic fluxes are being modulated by some other force. And that "other force" can only be electromagnetism. If the expected properties of electrostatic and electrodynamic forces are added to the existing thermodynamic foundation, the phenomena become understandable. The mistake that we have been making was in thinking that these phenomena were thermodynamic OR electromagnetic. Scientific research sometimes favors the isolation of individual factors, but Mother Nature doesn't work like that, and explaining the behaviors of a complex, non-linear system such as a thunderstorm requires that we take everything into account before we begin. This approach made it possible to see interactions among forces that have not been previously identified.

The theory is being presented in an online book, and can be found here:

http://charles-chandler.org/Geophysics/Tornadoes.php

The text-only version is about 80 pages, including 15 pages of references. So while it's a small book, it's still more than just an article. And while it shouldn't have been necessary to chew up so much space to expose a simple theory, it was necessary to show how that theory could explain the full range of behaviors of supercell thunderstorms and tornadoes. So if you're interested in meteorology and electromagnetism, wait for the next cold, rainy weekend, and curl up with a good revolutionary theory of tornadoes. Just make sure to jot down your comments, questions, and criticisms. Eventually, this work will go to press, and it will be easier to make improvements before that happens, rather than after. ;)

Quick comments and criticisms can be posted back to this thread. If anybody cares to do a review, positive or negative, I'll be happy to append it to the work. Just send it to me in a PM, and be sure to mention your real name. (I'm not going to append any reviews by anybody with a name like "Dark Lord" or "Game Boy". :mrgreen: )

Best regards to all,
Charles
I like your eBook,...

http://charles-chandler.org/Geophysics/Tornadoes.php

...so much, because it has contributed immensely to my research into William Lyne's story that Tesla had coached the Nazis on how to adapt Tesla's Special Generator for use in their Electro-U Boats via a go-between by the name of Mr. Dort, as related in William's, "Pentagon Aliens", towards the back of the text. A popular pseudonym in use these days is: Tesla's Tri-Metal Generator for its use of: copper, aluminum and iron in its construction.

But what you have done is make it much easier to imagine a tornado as a direct equivalent to Michael Faraday's Homopolar Generator as analyzed by Bruce DePalma, and others and hypothetically apply your finding to try and resolve this mystery of Tesla which William Lyne has put before us. :ugeek:

https://youtu.be/bnV5eFAf6zI

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable ... post291829

http://tinyURL.com/tesla-sgen

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