Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:48 pm

But guys, it was hot hail! (: It was fiery hail, it fell from the sky, it was attended by lightning, it caused fires, it broke the trees, and it was going to be fatal for any person or livestock left in the field.

He who feared the word of the LORD among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his livestock flee to the houses. Yay

So who knows, maybe it was hail; or maybe this is a word that reflects both stones and hail, depending on the temperatures expressed in the event. There are pretty severe hailstorms at times. What is the largest hailstone ever recorded?

There is a verse which uses "evan" /stones and "barad"/hail as parallel terms for the same event, in which rocks fell from heaven.

And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron,
that the LORD cast down great stones [אֶבֶן] evan
from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died:
they were more which died with hailstones [בָּרָד] barad + [אֶבֶן] evan
than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword.

So on balance, there are several uses describing a fiery event, some uses describing the cold and frost, and two verses using it as the noun in a descriptive phrase for rocks from heaven.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:03 pm

"So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, so very heavy that there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation." Ex 9

Or it could read, there was fire in the midst of the hail. In that case, we could all be wrong and it was hailstones of methane full of fire.

It was a sky goddess fail, one way or another!
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:25 pm

Image


Image

Methane ice, a possible fuel for Japan.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:25 pm

NEW THREAD SUMMARY

It's at a new location:
https://bit.ly/35oGT9g

By the way, I think the Sumerian clay tablets are the oldest known writings. Are they not? And if it's true that all of the ancient sources basically agree on the original ages of the patriarchs before and during the great flood, maybe Sumerian is one of the sources of Genesis. What are some of the best books or writings on comparisons of ancient myths with the Torah?

perpetual motion
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by perpetual motion » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:29 pm

The Akkadian version of the text was discovered at Nineveh, in the ruins of the library of Ashurbanipal, in 1849 CE by the archaeologist Austin Henry Layard. Layard's expedition was part of a mid-19th century CE initiative of European institutions and governments to fund expeditions to Mesopotamia to find physical evidence to corroborate events described in the Bible. What these explorers found instead, however, was ("that the Bible - previously thought to be the oldest book in the world and comprised of original stories - actually drew upon much older Sumerian myths"). Binggo.

Now about this single continent spitting up, and this happened not very long ago. I still say that centrifugal
force is what scattered the land masses to present day mapping. Then when these collided with sub
ocean plates, these mountains arose. We must see that these continents are at most 15000 feet above the
ocean floor (on average) which is a lot of ripping and tearing going on. I do not believe in subduction.
I believe that these land masses hit head on.The weakest rock is what comes to form the mountains,
because if you go out and do a little hiking you will see that the visible rock is all but shattered.
Like I said before about Bolides not being able to hit land (through an atmosphere) that it was from
this forums main characters write up. I don't know where in these writings, but it's in here somewhere.

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:32 pm

Thanks for the link to your notes Lloyd.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:09 pm

Perpetual motion offers one view of the archaeology of the early 1800s. Good.

What actually happened is that around the time that Darwin and Lyell began to assemble their story of uniformiatarianism (dubbing themselves the "Four Horsemen"), the deconstructionist schools of thought were also working on discrediting the historical accounts found in the Old Testament. This was a period that called into question the very existence of most of the cities, rulers, and nations mentioned in the OT.

Personally, my favorite example is the mockery and derision that the intellectual class in Europe held for the Book of Ezra, in which King Cyrus of Media Persia ordered the return of the Jews to their homeland in Judea, making royal provision for the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem and supporting a Jewish governor. Ha ha, they said, what are the chances of a Persian doing such a thing? This is obviously a fabrication.

The Cyrus Cylinder was discovered in 1879 and contained Cyrus' account of his defeat of Babylon and an edict to return exiles to their own lands, and rebuild their own temples. "It was created and used as a foundation deposit following the Persian conquest of Babylon in 539 BC, when the Neo-Babylonian Empire was invaded by Cyrus and incorporated into his Persian Empire."

I believe it is very painful for Western scholars to admit that the history written in the Bible was being completed at very close to the same time the Greeks were just beginning to learn their ABCs.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:26 pm

Layard's expedition was part of a mid-19th century CE initiative of European institutions and governments to fund expeditions to Mesopotamia to find physical evidence to corroborate events described in the Bible.
Whatever a person's historical perspective is, and whatever dates or events a person might be interested in, I think we can all agree that the process of physically testing the historical ideas within catastrophism is still the most important challenge that faces any of us. I am very interested in the integrity and methods of the actual process of re-discovering history, and what tools might be developed to date events and strata. I think the highest value should placed on field work and SEM testing, as well as experimentation. I also appreciate when people show their questions. That is important in science as well. Show me your question.

So we can all agree that Layard's expedition was a rational and reasonable way to settle the questions.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:14 pm

SUGGESTION

I’d like to post important info from this thread or info relevant to this thread in an organized way on a site where we can easily access it. I think my FutureSchool site may work.

I'd like for you all to help decide which info is important to collect there. I started a chatroom where you all are welcome to post such important info at any time. It’s at
http://us20.chatzy.com/21300370777374
I hope to be able to transfer the important info from the chatroom to my site. Okay? Anyone got better ideas or additional ones?

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JP Michael
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:43 pm

perpetual motion wrote:What these explorers found instead, however, was ("that the Bible - previously thought to be the oldest book in the world and comprised of original stories - actually drew upon much older Sumerian myths")
Just because non-Biblical accounts have similarities to the Biblical accounts, it does not follow that the non-Biblical accounts caused or inspired them. Correlation does not mean causation.

I was backreading some of my old Creation articles over the weekend and this gem came up:

Tas Walker, "Lessons from Mt. St. Helens" Creation 39(3):23-27 (July 2017).

This is such an important article for so many reasons, for those who want the TL;DR:
  • 1. Lamination and sedimentary deposition takes mere hours, not millions of years; (I will note, NO WATER REQUIRED - this is an important point for post-Flood catastrophism)
    2. Canyons are carved out in mere hours, not millions of years;
    3. Grooves cut in bedrock take mere hours, not millions of years of glaciation;
    4. Coal formation and polystrate tree fossils take mere hours, not millions of years;
    5. Radioisotope dating methods do not work on rocks of known age.
This was from one, single, localised volcanic eruption. How much more, then, during the close passes of Saturn during the Flood and later passes of Venus and/or Mars, all recorded in human eyewitness history?

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:18 pm

Just because non-Biblical accounts have similarities to the Biblical accounts, it does not follow that the non-Biblical accounts caused or inspired them. Correlation does not mean causation.
I agree completely with this, well said. But on the other hand it is very instructive, helpful and exciting to compare not only ancient myths from Egypt, Sumer, Babylon and Canaan, but all kinds of writing from that time -- because the events of the Old Testament did not transpire in a cultural vacuuum; it all happened against the backdrop of these prevailing cultures and attitudes. In other words, comparing myth should not be done to the exclusion of comparisons of law, forms of government, the places of worship, and various ritual practices. And further, I believe that anyone comparing myths and law must be prepared to find contrast and not similarity. Otherwise, you have compared nothing in any genuine sense of the word.
  • compare: to examine or look for the differences between persons or things; to consider or suggest that something is similar or equal to something else:
To illustrate a full approach to comparing ancient texts, let's take the law code of Hammurabi, c 1750 BC, and compare and contrast it with the law code of Moses on Sinai, c 1440 BC.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:46 pm

To illustrate a full approach to comparing ancient texts, let's take the law code of Hammurabi, c 1750 BC, and compare and contrast it with the law code of Moses on Sinai, c 1440 BC. Both contain laws dealing with property and crimes, but in the Laws of Hamurabi, there are separate laws and punishments for separate castes.

In The Torah, there is one law for every person, whether titled or not.

For example, the punishment for murder in Babylonian law depends on the status of the victim, but in the Law of Moses, there is one law for all. Any premeditated murder is punished by death. Other laws in the Torah concern penalties in the case of accidental deaths; also, negligence resulting in manslaughter may or may not be capital,depending on whether the victim's family decide to impose a fine. But this is not the case with any premeditated murder, and regardless of the status of the individual killed, male or female, free or slave. All are made in the image of God. "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood must be shed, For in the image of God He made man." Gen 9:6

Also, in the ancient world, there is the question of whether either servanthood or landlessness is permanent. In Moses neither is a permanent, institutionalized condition, while in caste societies, a man dies in the caste he is born into; there is no social mobility.

To continue our comparison in law, Plato, the Greeks and the Romans had a system which strictly controlled what a person could own, wear and eat, based on his caste. Their law actually maintained a caste of people who were not allowed to own weapons, chariots, or land, or eat pastries. (ref: Karl R. Popper, on Plato) Fast forward to today: it seems to me that a lot of people are trying to pass laws against and take away my golden chariot (Chevy Silverado, 747, etc), my weapons, my big house, my fuel and electricty, and my varied diet. What ever happened to "You've come a long way baby"?

Image

Let's take Virginia for example. Does Virginia have to hand over her pickup and rifle, and be prohibited from eating beef, chicken and eggs now? Sugar? Wheat? Chocolate? Can she have those? Can Virginia own a 2500 sq ft home? 5 acres? 40 acres? How about soap with bubbles /phosphorous, and nitrogen for her crops? Incandescent lights? Does she have to have only lights that have all of the Infrared taken out of it?
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Webbman
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Webbman » Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:38 pm

the problem is always the old testament and the remedy is always the new testament.
its all lies.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:12 am

IMPORTANT POINTS

I'm trying to post our important points in one location that's easily accessible.
I started posting info regarding Hebrew and the Bible here:
http://futureschool.boards.net/post/35/thread
I include translations/transliterations of Hebrew words relevant to catastrophism. The word for "comet" is interesting, as it seems to come from the word for Saturn, which is similar to the word for sabbath, the holy day of rest, the seventh day.

And I started posting info regarding Cataclysmic Geology here:
http://futureschool.boards.net/post/36/thread
I included several sources for info on EDM as a possible means of formation of Earth features etc. If anyone has important additional sources, please mention them.

Here's a place to share your important info that should be added to what I have at the above links:
http://www.chatzy.com/21300370777374

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JP Michael
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Tue Dec 17, 2019 5:11 pm

Lloyd, I'm working on a thorough analysis of Hebrew words associated with catastrophism & Saturnian theory. Won't be finished for another week or two, though, as there are a lot of words and inter-relationships to consider, in addition to etymological analysis from Benner's Ancient Hebrew Lexicon.

The resource you've used seems to pertain mostly to modern Hebrew, which has some significant linguistic divergence from the ancient (eg. modern foreign loanwords). I will be mostly utilising the vocabulary of the Biblical corpus with reference to only a handful of non-Biblical items (such as the names of the planets).

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