Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:51 pm

Catastrophism, subsection: the two great lights of Genesis 1

We talked about and made a pretty good case for a linguistic indication of a different sky in the Genesis 1 account, found in the plain statements of the text.

But there is also plenty of circumstantial evidence in the Gen 1-11 account for extraordinarily different conditions on earth at the time, which in turn, clearly changed by stages. These changing stages included gigantism, long lifespans, and a second mass extincion event followed by gradually shortening life expectancy; a possible change in the light spectrum resulting in the appearance of rainbows; the appearance of geographical barriers between regions; a sudden, collective loss of an original language, and the development of separate languages, families, and nations.

The question is open: do these physical events, which are found in the plain language of the text, align with or correspond to the changing conditions of earth as a then-satellite of Saturn, as it transitioned to an orbital companion of the Sun?
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:42 am

QUESTIONS
1. What is the oldest known copy of the Torah in Hebrew and in Greek? How old are they?
2. What archeological evidence is there for Torah claims? (Charles' site mentions numerous ones.)
3. What are transliterations of Hebrew letters to English letters? Can those who post Hebrew post the English transliterations, please?
4. What are the Hebrew words for terms most relevant to catastrophism? E.g. star, aster, disaster, names of planets, gods and names of gods, comet, sun, fire, flood, tidal wave, lightning, thunder, storm, typhoon, space/sky, chaos, void, dragon, serpent, monster (leviathan, behemoth), giant (Nephilim?), spirit, angel, glory, radiant, pyramid, tower, altar, etc (Did Velikovsky discuss any Hebrew terms in Worlds in Collision? Talbott discussed some interesting English words, like aster and disaster). What other terms should be included here?
5. Aren't there only 900 some Hebrew words in the Torah?

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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:36 pm

by Lloyd » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:42 am
QUESTIONS
1. What is the oldest known copy of the Torah in Hebrew and in Greek? How old are they?
2. What archeological evidence is there for Torah claims? (Charles' site mentions numerous ones.)
Most Bibles have a preface, and in this you will find an explanation of the texts that were used by the translators, along with some history and comments on the notations. They are usually only a few pages long and very interesting.

Up until about 1947, the oldest (Hebrew) Masoretic text was from c.980 AD. In about that year, a young lad threw a rock at a goat and missed. What he hit instead were some clay jars in a cave, containing what we now know as the Dead Sea Scrolls. These date from around 30 to AD 68, but some are written in Paleo-Hebrew and are dated around 250 BC. There are 1100 objects with writing, 223 of which are books of the Bible.

There are no substantial differences in meaning, but a small percentage of words have an alternate spelling. This is a testament to the scholarly care and diligence of the Jewish scribes who have kept these scrolls through the millennia. 95% of the text is exactly the same as the Bible that you hold in your hand.

Both the Jews and the Christians (Reformation) use the same 39 books, but the Jewish people in general do not accept that Y'shua was their Messiah, while Christians believe that He is. These are two groups with completely different views and interests, but the Old Testament is theirs; we have exactly the same text, word for word. It comes as a surprise to some outsiders in this conversation to learn that Jesus was Jewish! Including me at first, your basic Gentile! But He was a Jewish man in the Judean state under occupation by Rome at the time; He spoke Hebrew (and probably Aramaic), read it, and kept all of the holidays of the Torah, including Passover; and He kept the Feast of Dedication, also known as Hannukah. Those Jews who do accept Y'shua are called "Messianic," and often continue to keep their language and holidays, but with renewed meaning.

In Europe, having a Bible in your own language was outlawed by Rome in the late 1200's and many, many people died translating it into the vernacular of their respective countries. In fact, all royalty in Continental Europe hated literacy, reading primers, and the Bible, and even reading English itself came at great cost, at great risk to life and limb. In general, that explains why Americans have always had a distaste for royalty, dynastic rule, rule by inherited titles, and priests in fancy robes. It has become genetic for us.

The Greeks attempted to wipe out the Books of the Bible and Hellenize the region, and the Romans also attempted to destroy all copies of it as well, forbidding the practice of Judaism and setting up a statue of Zeus in the Temple. There have been many pressures but the books are still here.
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Thu Dec 12, 2019 12:41 pm

Here are two Dead Sea Scroll links:

dsenglishbible.com

the actual images of the objects are here:

deadseascrolls.org.il
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:22 pm

The issue of preservation is truly fascinating. When I first watched Thunderbolts of the Gods, I found it very compelling that the petroglyphs around the world matched the plasma formations in the lab, and that craters could be reproduced using an electric discharge. Also, because of Talbott's continuation of Velikovsky's work with world wide myths, I began to read the myths and legends of both literate and pre-literate people. What I found was that the legends of the people who passed down their stories orally were replete with references to electricity, thunderbolts, and catastrophic events which shaped their landscape. So how long were these stories passed down, retaining so many original elements involving electricity? When did these things happen? You really have to stop and respect the generation-to-generation sharing that took place.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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nick c
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by nick c » Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:33 pm

I am currently reading:
The Many Faces of Venus by Ev Cochrane
https://www.maverickscience.com/the-man ... -of-venus/

Very good, and relevant to this thread.

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JP Michael
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:11 pm

Lloyd wrote:3. What are transliterations of Hebrew letters to English letters? Can those who post Hebrew post the English transliterations, please?
There are various standards and styles of Hebrew romanisation. I recommend consulting the table here for details.

I personally tend towards common Israeli because Polska Norma or Hebrew Academy requires over and under scoring on some letters (extra effort to open & use KeyMap). Note the dagesh (dot) will double certain consonants, or else change their pronunciation slightly.

א - ' aleph, soundless consonant that only carries its vowel. Transliterated with either left-falling apostrophe or just its vowel sound.
בּ/ב - v/b bet
גּ/ג - g/gh gimel
דּ/ד - d/dh dalet
ה - h hey
ו/וּ/וֹ - o/u/v vav, the first two are full vowel (mater lectionis) forms of this consonant.
זּ/ז - z/zz zayin
ח - ch chet, a gutteral like Scottish loch
טּ/ט - t/tt tet
יּ/יִ/י - y/i/yy yod
כּ/כ/ך - kh/kh/k kaf, a gutteral (stronger than chet above) when it lacks the dagesh (dot). The long form is the final form when it is the last letter of a word.
לּ/ל - l/ll lamed
מּ/מ/ם - m/m/mm mem, the 'square' form is the final form when it is the last letter of a word.
נּ/נ/ן - n/n/nn nun, the 'long' form is the final form when it is the last letter of a word.
סּ/ס - s/ss samekh
ע - ' ayin, a difficult glottal-stop gutteral that is usually not pronounced (like aleph) except in specific Hebrew dialects. Usually transliterated with a right-falling apostrophe or just its vowel sound.
פּ/פ/ף - f/f/p peh, the 'long' form is the final form when it is the last letter of a word.
צּ/צ/ץ - tz/tz/tztz tzaddi, the 'long' form is the final form when it is the last letter of a word.
קּ/ק - q/qq qof
ר - r resh
שּׁ/שׁ/שּׂ/שׂ - s/ss/sh/shsh sin/shin. The dot above determines whether it is an s or sh sound.
תּ/ת - t/th tav

I apologise for not thoroughly transliterating these earlier. I am used to debating Hebrew in academic circles where I usually omit both transliteration and vowel pointing.
Lloyd wrote:4. What are the Hebrew words for terms most relevant to catastrophism? E.g. star, aster, disaster, names of planets, gods and names of gods, comet, sun, fire, flood, tidal wave, lightning, thunder, storm, typhoon, space/sky, chaos, void, dragon, serpent, monster (leviathan, behemoth), giant (Nephilim?), spirit, angel, glory, radiant, pyramid, tower, altar, etc (Did Velikovsky discuss any Hebrew terms in Worlds in Collision? Talbott discussed some interesting English words, like aster and disaster). What other terms should be included here?
I will have to spend some considerable time to collate this, but it will be worth it. I will readdress this later.
Lloyd wrote:5. Aren't there only 900 some Hebrew words in the Torah?
There is a vocabulary of 8674 words in the entire Hebrew Scriptures, of which ~2,415 are proper names. Of the remaining 6,259 words, 1,647 are verbs, 3,827 are nouns and the remaining 785 are pronouns, prepositions, interrogatives etc.

The Torah contains 79,847 words. I could not find any resources pertaining to the actual range of vocabulary in the Torah as opposed to the entire Tanakh, but I suspect Jeff Benner's Ancient Hebrew Torah Lexicon would answer that (which is not currently in my personal library).

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JP Michael
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:07 pm

Here's a rough draft summary of my current views and some aspects, especially the catalysts, are highly liable to change as I read more.

JP Michael
  • A. Main: Multiple Key Players at work in Geology and Cosmology.

    B. Earth: Fiat Creation Ex-Nihilo 4175 BCE , ±50 years.

    C. Supercontinent: 4175 BCE initial creation (granitic?); 2519 BCE, ±9 years, total destruction/reformation during Noah's Flood to present continental arrangement.

    D. Strata: 2519 BCE, ±9 years, for primary global deposition of sedimentary layers during Noah's Flood. Secondary and tertiary localised depositions during subsequent smaller cataclysms via quadruple process of waterborne (tsunami) sedimentary deposition, ionic wind deposition, igneous/volcanic basalt deposition and localised electroplasma machining.

    E. Mountains: Unknown initial creation conditions; 2518 BCE, ±9 years, for primary post-flood erosional remnants from a combination of abating floodwaters, volcanic eruption, electrical/ionic wind machining and continental compression/uplift. Secondary and tertiary mountain-forming/destroying episodes in subsequent smaller catastrophes.

    F. Cataclysms:
    4175-4045 - Adam's Fall from Eden?
    2519 BCE - Noah's Flood.
    ~2100 BCE - Sodom and Gomorrah.
    ~2000 BCE - Jacob's Ladder.
    1492 BCE - Exodus of Israelites.
    1440 BCE - Invasion of Canaan.
    1440-800 BCE - Intermittent, cyclic catastrophism.
    Feb 27th 747 BCE - Raash of King Uzziah.
    ~702 BCE - Last Earth-Mars Encounter?
    Unknown CE - Future Catastrophism

    G. Catalysts: Saturn (Noah's Flood); Saturn? (Sodom & Gomorrah); Solar Plasma Current (Jacob's Ladder); Saturn, Jupiter, Venus, Mars & Moon (Exodus); Venus (Invasion); Mars, Venus (Intermittent period); Mars (Uzziah); Mars (Final); Venus, Mars (Future)

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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Younger Dryas » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:36 pm

The editors of the Old Testament recopied old books, collated manuscripts, and reviewed the King List some 2400 years ago. As the oldest extant historical document, the King List could not be neglected, although as likely many Bible sources were Egyptian. The editors were also 1500 years closer to the Sumerian sources of 2000 BC than we are today, and not only took the information seriously, but most likely read the Sumerian texts correctly, for there is close agreement on the time spans between the Bible and the King List, -- not the "unmodified" long reign spans. A crucial error when translating the Kings List occurs regarding the word 'Saris'.

There have been attempts by Bible scholars to justify the time spans in years of the Sumerian "kings before the flood" with the Bible account of the time span from creation to the flood of Noah, and especially to somehow account for the long lives of the patriarchs. In both texts eight kings or patriarchs are listed -- nine patriarchs if Adam is included.

I do think that the Bible may have used the King List as a source. But what we are seeing is a record in parallel to the Sumerian sources, or Egyptian sources (since by tradition Moses was the original author of Genesis).

Egyptian parallels can be found from three sources for the kings of the first and second dynasties: (1) the Palermo stone list of kings (about 2550 BC), (2) the Turin Papyrus list of kings (circa 1200 BC, or more likely 950 BC), and (3) the written records of kings left by Manetho (about 300 to 200 BC). These last, although spanning 2200 years, are congruent for all practical purposes, and mostly validate each other.

The Hindu and Chinese sources are overwhemily vast, but both describe 9 patriarchs/avatars/gods/kings before the flood and the promise of a tenth (to usher in the end of world).



Unless you can rectify the 930 years attributed to Adam's life, the following chronological attempts will continue to fail. Bishop Ussher's - Annals of the World is a phenomenal read/attempt at putting together a coherent chronology and I'd highly recommend those seeking to do the same to give him a go.
"I decided to believe, as you might decide to take
an aspirin: It can't hurt, and you might get better."
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by nick c » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:06 am

Lloyd wrote:Did Velikovsky discuss any Hebrew terms in Worlds in Collision?
Without doing an extensive search, I did remember the word "barad" being discussed. So I looked in the index of a Doubleday edition of WiC, and found it discussed on p 55.

Barad in Hebrew is translated as meteorites or as I remember from elsewhere as hot rocks. The reference is in the context of fire coming from the sky or a rain of fire.
Velikovsky wrote:The eighth plague as described in The Book of Exodus was "barad [meteorites] and fire mingled with the barad, very grievous as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation" (Exodus 9:24). There were "thunder [correct: loud noises] and barad, and the fire ran along the ground" (Exodus 9:23).
I find it very interesting how uniformitarian bias affects the meaning of a translation. The King James version translates "barad" as "hail."
The translators working for King James could not imagine the possibility of hot rocks (meteorites) falling from the sky, so they doctored the original Hebrew text to something more palatable in the context of their experience...hail stones. It is interesting to note that the consensus science of the time (1611 AD) considered it impossible for rocks to fall from the sky. It was not until 1803 that Science accepted meteorites as having an extraterrestrial origin.

Notice that in the section of WiC from which the above quote is taken, there are numerous references to the same catastrophic scenarios derived from cultures from around the world. One cannot overemphasize the importance of comparative analysis in attempts to reconstruct catastrophic events. Tales with unusual elements that appear in like tales across a variety of cultures are a key to discovery. Dwelling upon a particular tale from a single culture without putting it into a larger context, can lead to incorrect conclusions.

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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:32 am

In police questioning, assuming all witnesses are unreliable, and using leading questions, results in massive data loss.

Which is fine if you have a foregone conclusion.

However, in standards of evidence and legal matters, it is fraudulent to cover up and eliminate exculpatory evidence.

Therefore, assuming all people worshiped planets or were speaking of planets in all cases that electricity or creation is dealt with, and ignoring the plain language and clear statements of the tradition and law, is a form of fraud in dealing with cultures.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Fri Dec 13, 2019 12:03 pm

I think that nick c and Velikovsky do not have a problem with the original Hebrew text, or the use of the word "barad" to describe the plague of stones and fire on the Egyptians in Exodus 9. After all, no one eliminated the fire that accompanied the hail in the English, or the Hebrew.

Neither was the Hebrew "doctored" to fit any uniformitarian view, because that school of thought was not developed yet, and again, hail does not usually fall with fire, which preserves context needed to understand the word. Can it hail meteorites? Does it indicate something hard and round fell from the sky? What about the plague of great stones mentioned in Revelation, stones one talent in size? In comparing scripture with scripture, we do find other verses which state that stones do fall from the sky.

What nick c and Velikovsky seem to have a problem with is the KJV rendering of barad as hail in English. nick c already mentioned that this was published in 1611. The English language has changed a bit since Elizabeth I was Queen of England and Shakespeare was writing plays.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Fri Dec 13, 2019 4:14 pm

by Lloyd » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:42 am
QUESTIONS

4. What are the Hebrew words for terms most relevant to catastrophism? E.g. star, aster, disaster, names of planets, gods and names of gods, comet, sun, fire, flood, tidal wave, lightning, thunder, storm, typhoon, space/sky, chaos, void, dragon, serpent, monster (leviathan, behemoth), giant (Nephilim?), spirit, angel, glory, radiant, pyramid, tower, altar, etc (Did Velikovsky discuss any Hebrew terms in Worlds in Collision? Talbott discussed some interesting English words, like aster and disaster). What other terms should be included here?
Here are the terms for all of the celestial bodies, in one single verse.

And take heed, lest you lift your eyes to heaven, and when you see the sun, the moon, and the stars, all the host of heaven, you feel driven to worship them and serve them, which the Lord your God has given to all the peoples under the whole heaven as a heritage.
Deuteronomy 4:19
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by nick c » Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:22 pm

Brigit Bara wrote:What nick c and Velikovsky seem to have a problem with is the KJV rendering of barad as hail in English. nick c already mentioned that this was published in 1611. The English language has changed a bit since Elizabeth I was Queen of England and Shakespeare was writing plays.
The word "hail" meant the same thing in 1611 English as it does today. I have been in many hail storms and would never confuse them with a fall of meteorites (barad). The fact is that King James' translators could not comprehend the possibility that rocks could fall from the sky, their scientists/philosophers/theologians told them it was impossible, so they interpreted the original text as something they could understand...... "Oh they must have meant hail!"

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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Fri Dec 13, 2019 7:12 pm

Even the ESV, which I rate rather highly as a modern scholarly translation, perpetuates this error.

Velikovsky has copious footnotes on various Hebrew words from p.207 ff. (Worlds in Collision). I've got more in my notes which I am compiling into a reference resource. More to come.

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