Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Yogi
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Yogi » Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:36 am

JP Michael wrote:
Thu Dec 26, 2019 6:56 pm
@Yogi

Not all creation scientists even accept the traditional version of 'canopy' theory, namely those versions popularised by Kent Hovind and Henry Morris I, that a 'canopy' of water encircled the earth which later collapsed to be one of the two contributing mechanisms of the global flood in Noah's time. Furthermore, the 'canopy' theory finds an interesting parallel in the theories set forth by Wallace Thornill and Dwardu Cardona that the earlier orbit (or if you don't agree with orbit, coaxial rotation) of Earth within the plasmasphere of our first sun, Saturn, would have resulted in abundant, global warmth with a 'mist watering the whole world' (cf. Genesis 2:6). That this is no longer the case indicates that the Earth has changed suns, to which the testimony of ancient history and mythology agrees!

I agree that the planets have 'canopies' but I define this according to modern plasma physics, that is, plasmaspheres. Where Velikovsky plays a crucial role is the initial development of the hypothesis that these planetary plasmaspheres came into contact, 'Worlds in Collision', with one another in the past causing all manner of horrendous disasters throughout human history. These disasters were often interpreted locally and culturally as the handiwork of the regional gods, the gods being the planet-actors responsible for bringing the fury of their wrath upon the Earth. Hence the rich and vibrant accounts of catastrophism throughout the annals of world mythology. It is my belief that the Hebrew account stands alone in that most of its descriptions do not have the fantastical interpretive elements of other world mythologies, preserving what is the genuine history of the world. Yet I also believe that the Bible's record of earth history is far from comprehensive, thus allowing us to explore evidence left for us in world mythology in order to attempt to reconstruct the entire picture of Earth's catastrophic past.

Most creation science ignores at best or rejects uncritically at worst, not only plasma cosmology but also the idea that planetary plasmaspheric collisions were the major overarching mechanism for not only Noah's flood, but all manner of smaller catastrophes that occured after the flood as recorded wordwide in various mythologies. That is a serious deficiency in creationist thinking that this thread was initially started to discuss in all its interlocking strands of evidence.
I agree with your assessment of the canopy makeup. It wasn't water. Yet the movement of planetary orbits isn't necessary. Even now the magneto-tail of Venus often reaches close to Earth. A large enough event from the sun could have traveled through the solar system, planet to planet wreaking havoc. What evidence is there for small star that stopped shining and turned into a ball of super cold gases? That would be harder to explain than the current star formation theory. We would need the Earth to be very close to a smaller star, if I am getting it right, then the current sun appear somehow?

Yes there are many catastrophe stories from ancient times. I am pretty sure there over 250 that refer to the great flood, with one of them from the American southwest-before having met Europeans- telling of eight people on a great raft (Noah and family) saving the animals from the great flood after a time of plenteous food and animals with no fear of people.
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Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Dec 27, 2019 9:06 am

CHRONOLOGY, REVISE OR NOT
I'm open-minded mostly. I used to study Velikovsky's revised chronology and later Donavan Courville's etc. But more recently I learned that the Thunderbolts team seems to support mostly conventional chronology, except maybe for minor revisions, like Centuries of Darkness, I think by Peter James. And they seem to use good reasoning. Below are 4 articles by Ev Cochrane, that I think are important. I included a couple of quotes. The astronomical retrocalculations seem to prove pretty certainly that many claims of conventional history are correct, back at least to 400 or so BC so far. I welcome further discussion. Dating methods are somewhat unreliable, but some are fairly reliable, like retrocalculation, at least if we don't go back too far, to when the Saturn system broke up, if that or something similar happened. C14 seems to be more reliable than other radiometric methods, but I hope we can find the flaws and fix them.

Astronomical Retrocalculations and Chronology
https://www.maverickscience.com/astrono ... hronology/
Having traced solar eclipse observations back well over two thousand years, we have found a striking accord between the ancient observations and modern retrocalculations. It follows from this finding that the historical reconstructions offered by Heinsohn, Marx, Illig, Whelton and others–in which several or more centuries are to be deleted during the past 2500 years–are untenable.

A review of Charles Ginenthal’s book Pillars of the Past
https://www.maverickscience.com/wp-cont ... enthal.pdf
1 David Rohl, Pharoah’s and Kings (New York, 1995), p. 402, otherwise sympathetic to Velikovsky’s cause, had this to say of the latter’s habit of making one or another ruler the alter ego of another: “So, Velikovsky turned Seti I of the 19th Dynasty into Psamtek I of the 26th Dynasty and likewise Ramses II into Neko II. Even the most accommodating scholars found this methodology totally unacceptable and the archaeological evidence was wholly against such equations. Getting himself deeper and deeper into trouble he then equated Ramses III of the 20th Dynasty with Nectanebo I of the 30th Dynasty. In the end his whole thesis degenerated into farce with dynasties leapfrogging over each other in their undignified clamour towards the Hellenistic Age.”

Information on Dr. Heinsohn’s historical revisions (Gunnar Heinsohn criticism - Maverick Science)
https://www.maverickscience.com/wp-cont ... ticism.pdf

The science of astronomical retrocalculations; How it impacts the radical chronologies
https://www.maverickscience.com/wp-cont ... ations.pdf

PS, glad to see JP's list of biblical Hebrew words relevant to catastrophism. I hope we can discuss that, as well as the origin of or inspiration for Atenism, and more details of our various catastrophist models and the evidence for them.

The Thunderbolts team say Aten was the enclosure around Saturn, which they figured was formed when Venus originally acted like a comet, giving off smoke, dust, gases or etc that formed a circle around Saturn. Since Venus was a distance from Saturn somewhat toward Mars and Earth, the circle would have formed from a circular movement of Venus around the rotational axis of Saturn, Venus, Mars and Earth, which were all aligned.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:29 am

QUESTIONS

What was the Aten?
The TB team says it was not the solar disk, but an apparent enclosure around the sun-god, Saturn.
How certain is that?
Why did Akhenaten start a new religion devoted to the Aten?
Did the ancients equate the Aten with Venus, as the TB team says?
If so, why? Did Venus as a comet make a circle around Saturn?
If so, was the circle made of cometary dust and gases?
Or was the circle a plasma effect?
How long before Akhenaten's time did the Venus/Aten circle around nearby Saturn exist?
Why did Akhenaten become obsessed with Aten in his time?
Did Akhenaten live in the 1300sBC, as Charles says, or in the 1000sBC as Velikovsky said?
Did Venus or another comet make an appearance at the time of Akhenaten?
Does the Bible hold any clues?
What are ancient Hebrew words for comet, enclosure, house, circle, etc?

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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:38 am

Lloyd wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:29 am
What was the Aten?
The Aten cannot be equated with the winged Sun disc.

First, the Sun disc symbol predated Atenism by over a thousand years, during which time its meaning evolved, depending on the definition of the god(s) it represented. It first appeared c. 2600 bce. See pg. 531 in:

https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchica ... TATION.pdf

So for the winged Sun disc to be useful for catastrophists, the inspiring event would have occurred before 2600 bce.

Second, it was only used by Akhenaten early in his regency -- he later decreed that the Aten could not be reduced to an icon or an idol, and that if it had to be represented in any sort of permanent medium, it had to be spelled out phonetically.
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JP Michael
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Fri Dec 27, 2019 7:42 pm

Yogi wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 5:36 am
...the movement of planetary orbits isn't necessary.
Yet this leaves proponents of this position scratching their heads regarding historical astronomical data from ancient Sumer, Egypt, Babylon, Greece, Rome, China and Mesoamerica, to say nothing of folk legends from North America, South-East Asia, Australia and Polynesia. How do you explain the 360 day year, legends of 2 suns, legends of the moon shining brighter than the sun, the axis mundi (world axis/mountain) and the immobile Polestar sun of ancient mythology? How do you explain Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels detailing Mars and its two moons 150 years before Mars' two moons were even discovered by telescope? The only option left is to undertake the same course as modern science: because our skies exhibit none of these things, we must conclude that the ancients were fantastic storytellers entertaining the same world-wide delusions of inventive fancy; else one must take the Freudian/Jungian psychoanalytical approach to say that every world culture simultaneously expressed buried mental archetypes in their mythological storytelling. Occam's Razor suggests the superior alternative, and the one with which I agree most wholeheartedly, is that, simply, the skies have changed in the intervening years between the past epochs of world mythology and the present. World mythology details those changes with accompanying local/cultural interpretations of the observed phenomenon and their meaning for kings, priests and their respective denizens.

That said, I will continue to assert that the Hebrew Scriptures stand alone in their defiance of these world-wide trends. There is very little explicit mention of such matters in the writings of the ancient Hebrew-Israelite race, and most of the places pagan mythologies/religions are encountered the perspective is very much negative: the Jewish religion, at its core, is based upon abhorrence of the worship of the planets and celestial phenomena and that judgment awaits for those who turn aside to follow the gods of the nations. These judgments were duly executed at various times and places as the Hebrew-Israelite histories chronicle for us.
Yogi wrote:Even now the magneto-tail of Venus often reaches close to Earth. A large enough event from the sun could have traveled through the solar system, planet to planet wreaking havoc.
This is very correct and by no means do I intend on disputing Peratt's hypothesis of increased, visible, solar plasma events in the recent past. 4,000,000+ petroglyphs worldwide detailing plasma phenomenon demonstrate conclusively that high-energy-density events occured within human eyewitness history and were objects of perpetual fascination. And it is quite possible that the planet-comet Venus was involved, even after it had assumed its current orbital rotation.
Yogi wrote:What evidence is there for small star that stopped shining and turned into a ball of super cold gases? That would be harder to explain than the current star formation theory. We would need the Earth to be very close to a smaller star, if I am getting it right, then the current sun appear somehow?
The issue, again, is that the mythohistorical record concretely places the location of not just Venus, but also Saturn, Jupiter, Mars and Mercury as agents of chaos, cataclysm and destruction upon earth, and so close that details of those planets are related millenia before the advent of Galileo's telescope. Wallace Thornill, David Talbott, Dwardu Cardona and Ev Cochrane's extensive reconstruction of the locations of the planets during this period offer key interpretive insights of ancient mythology: ancient peoples witnessed Saturn turn from star to planet before their eyes. Ancient peoples witnessed Jupiter (Zeus) murder his 'father', Kronos (Saturn) and take over rule of the sky for a time. Ancient peoples witnessed Saturn's 'exile', Jupiter's retreat, and the reign of Venus-Mars for a period. The skies have been the object of fascination for humanity since time began.

The problem is not a lack of evidence. The problem is the a-priori dismissal of the evidence due to prejudiced opinions regarding the intelligence, capabilities and accuracy of ancient peoples in their descriptions of the sky. This assumption comes primarily from the dogma of evolutionism which stipulates that the intelligence of man has increased over time, an assumption often not shared by creationism in light of the fact that the Bible states that humanity was intelligent and inventive from the beginning (see Genesis 4:19-24, an important passage detailing not just material inventiveness, but artistic creativity via early poetry as well). The persistent problem is the continued interposition of the modern sky, modern sun, modern orbits, modern absence of plasma phenomena, etc, upon the observations of the ancients. Just because certain phenomena are not extant now, does not mean they were not extant in the past. This fundamental error needs addressing in creation science just as much as in secular science.

@Lloyd
Lloyd wrote:The astronomical retrocalculations seem to prove pretty certainly that many claims of conventional history are correct, back at least to 400 or so BC so far. I welcome further discussion. Dating methods are somewhat unreliable, but some are fairly reliable, like retrocalculation, at least if we don't go back too far, to when the Saturn system broke up, if that or something similar happened.
This is an important point and I appreciate you providing it. Nevertheless, if you notice the dating of eclipses provided by Cochrane does not go back further than 709 BCE. I find this rather significant, as I am sure Cochrane also does, in that this is around the same period that Velikovsky, among others, posited that the skies changed for the last time. This astronomical retrocalculation does not cover the Egyptian period 1500 BCE-800 BCE, one of the key periods targeted by Velikovsky for revision.

Having read a little more of Heinsohn and Ginenthal, I do quite agree with Cochrane that their revisionism was excessive and utilised fairly uncritical and/or unsubstantiated methodologies. I would even tend to agree the same way regarding Velikovsky's Greek/Persian revision, although I am currently working my way through that material in detail. But I cannot say the same of Velikovsky's Egyptian revision although I am still yet to read detailed criticism specific to his revised Egyptian chronology.
Lloyd wrote:C14 seems to be more reliable than other radiometric methods, but I hope we can find the flaws and fix them.
As per my post here, I cannot see how the fundamental unknowable assumptions involved in calculating 14C ages can ever be resolved.

Yogi
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Yogi » Sun Dec 29, 2019 7:51 am

Hello again,
I am not very much on board with the C-14 data. The man who invented it (Libby) stated that one should go beyond 50K yrs with it, in fact one should stay well below 20K. The extreme aged samples should have NO carbon by now, but they all do, as best I can recall. Even at this website-TPOD_- we saw the example of the petrified tree stump so we know it can happen quickly.

Ahhh, the maverick science link, been there many times. Found some good stuff there too.
working on uploading a small file...doesn't seem to like PDF
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Yogi
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Yogi » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:59 am

Meant to say the man who invented it said NOT to go beyond 50k yrs.
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Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:30 pm

Has anyone noticed that many of our messages are missing words or parts of words, especially at the ends of paragraphs? Or is it just my computer?

I've now updated the Thread Summary at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N6D ... 2ddIM/edit
I'm now including only items that seem important for my work on catastrophism etc.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myths & Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:30 am

JP, here are some brief comments on some of the Hebrew terms you shared.

"Har’el (H2025 with spelling variant H741) – Hearth-altar, lit. god-hill."
Does el = God and Har = hill?
Sounds like the Saturn configuration, i.e. the hill or mountain that appeared to reach up to Saturn at the north polar axis, where the pole star is now.

"Ophel (H652 from H651) - Darkness, of the type that falls down as divine punishment."
Does el = God and Oph = cataclysmic darkness?
Sounds like the time of chaos during the Saturn system breakup.

"Galgal (H1534) – Whirlwind; wheel. From a root meaning to go around in circles."
"Gal (H1530 from 1556) – Billow, mound, heap, wave, gushing water."
Sounds like the Great Flood cataclysm during the Saturn system breakup.

"Mabbul (H3999) – The Deluge, used only of Noah’s global cataclysm. From a root meaning an overflow that results in new vegetation growing up afterwards."

"Tehom (H8415 from H1949) - Deep sea, from a root meaning roaring, loud or tumultuous."
Brigit said it only means the sea, but if other early cultures equated it with the sky, then that may still have been the original meaning.

"Liviathan (H3882 from H3867) – Leviathan, dragon, sea monster. From a root meaning to twist or tie tightly together in a circle. See Job 41:1-34."
Sounds like the "ouroboros": a circular symbol depicting a snake, or less commonly a dragon, swallowing its tail, as an emblem of wholeness or infinity, which is the same as the Aten, the enclosure around early Saturn formed by the cometary debris from Venus.

"Saraph (H8314 from H8313) - Fiery serpent. See also under spirit/wind/angel."
Sounds like the dragon = comet Venus.

"Chereb (H2719) - Sword. From a root related to heat/dry causing desolation."
"Kerub(im) (H3742) – Cherub, a winged creature with human-animal features. See Exodus 25:20; Ezekiel 10; 28:13-19. Also associated with cosmic disaster, see 2 Samuel 22:7-16; Psalm 99:1."
The main cataclysms included a conflagration.



<Moderator Note> Thread continued here:
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum3/ph ... ?f=11&t=13
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