I don't know if this is worthwhile. I wanted a summary for myself, to help me grasp what's been discussed here so far. And I thought it might be worth sharing here. So here's what I got.
1. I said JP
is interested in biblical clues
that hint of the ancient Saturn configuration
and I quoted JP: Mention of the 'sun' (shamash) does not occur until Gen 15:12, and the moon (yareach) until Gen 37:9, and in both cases translating them "Saturn" and "Crescent" (following David Talbott's The Saturn Myth, pp.276-280) [is plausible]; we agreed that "Fountains of the Great Deep
" refers to outer space
, not the oceans; I quoted JP's suggested bible resources
and I said I learned that there are a lot of different meanings for each word in Hebrew; finally I mentioned Charles Chandler's
"Torah Historicity", Mike Fischer's
rapid continental drift and John Baumgardner's
article on Noah's Flood
2. I referenced links
to discussion of Shamash
3. I asked WHICH PLANETOIDS DID WHAT regarding cataclysms; I mentioned some of my ideas and my plan to compare catastrophist models
4. Moses said Noah's flood did not produce the geological column or strata
5. I explained why Floods must have produced the strata
6. JP mentioned Guy Berthault's Experiments in Stratification
as evidence that the Flood produced strata; he said other creationist geological modelling erroneously rejects most hypothesised events prior and subsequent to Noah's Flood; he said Baumgartner seems right about tidal-waves
of global sedimentary deposition, but they were caused by Earth orbiting Saturn
, not something orbiting Earth, and the linear Saturn system
formation occurred at the mid-point of the flood
(Gen 8:2-4) and Earth retained this position for some centuries after the Flood and didn't stabilise to the present system until ~700 BCE
7. Moses said: Mount St Helens strata
had no oceanic flood waters so the geological column didn't need a flood, just Electrical discharge machining
, and there were separate events of deposition
in the geological column; also, 6 thousand years since creation is a constraint on clear thinking and not really found in the bible; and the geological column was formed before the ice ages and Noah's flood was after the ice ages
8. JP said creationists say there was only one Ice Age precipitated by warmer post-Deluge oceans, but electrical discharge machining is a missing piece
of creationist modeling and there was more than one era of catastrophe
9. Brigit discussed Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2
saying There was an indefinite interval between the first verse of Genesis and the second; she agreed that the Bible does not say God created the sun and moon, but two great lights to rule the day and night; so it's possible that Saturn and another body were the original sources of light.
10. JP discussed Gap Theory
for Genesis 1:1-2 similar to Brigit's idea and said creationist models focus on the "very good" statement at Gen 1:31 and no death or suffering prior to Adam's fall at Gen 3:19; Romans 5:12 which do not allow cataclysmic events before Genesis 7 in their models.
11. Brigit said sorry about missing a couple of paragraphs on the thread.
12. Brigit said she's only interested in comparing scripture with scripture
in understanding Genesis and studied two years of Hebrew and the Bible makes it plain there was a catastrophic event between Genesis 1:1 and 2.
13. Brigit said Did God make a waste and emptiness, or a vanity and void, as a preliminary condition for creation
, regarding "And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep."
14. JP said old-earth interpretations of Genesis 1:1-2 are recent and the Scriptures teach about 6200 years since creation, but the length of the pre-Flood day and year
is difficult to ascertain; he'd like comments
on the detailed objections he hyperlinked in the previous post.
15. I said regarding "And the earth was without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep" that the Earth may have referred to an apparition in the sky
and the "deep" referred to the sky and the "face" of the deep maybe referred to the Saturn configuration
; I want to compare several catastrophist models.
16. JP said the Bible has the best discernable chronology
17. I quoted from Charles Chandler's "Torah Historicity
" and referenced his Chronology
18. Brigit expressed interest in discussing JP's arguments about Gen. 1:1 & 1:2.
19. JP claimed that Chandler's Torah chronology messes up Christ's genealogy
20. Brigit said the second verse of Genesis
is illuminated further by many other verses in Genesis, and the rest of the Bible, revealing an event which lead to utter chaos
and ruin of the primitive creation and will list them next.
21. JP said Guy Berthault's
flume tank experiments in stratigraphy and Andrew Hall's
waterless electrical-catastrophic ionic winds
hypothesis show that Long periods of time are simply not required for sedimentary desposition, similarly with Fossilisation
22. Brigit said Thanks for the link to the fossilized wire etc.
23. I asked re Genesis 1, how do you know
"God" referred to the Creator, "Earth" referred to our planet, or that "created" meant made from nothing.
24. Younger Dryas said something about folks in the 7th century b.c.
I guess re editing the Hebrew bible.
25. I said On my private forum at http://futureschool.boards.net/thread/2 ... crollTo=30
I'm trying to compare several catastrophist models
26. JP said Chandler's reconstruction conflicts with that of Luke's recorded genealogy; "God" referred to the Creator
Because the Bible repeats emphatically that Elohim is YHWH
; the Genesis narrative makes it clear that it is the Earth being referred to by the Hebrew word aretz.
27. I said all of the 13 biblical examples
that JP cite for aretz referring to our planet Earth can equally be regarded as referring to the ancient Saturn configuration
and I quoted from Cardona's Aeon article
, Darkness and the Deep, regarding eretz etc; and we should clarify our catastrophist views in a little detail.
28. Charles said Luke got Jesus' genealogy
from the 2nd Temple scribes and They got it from King Josiah (640-609 BCE), who canonized everything from Genesis to 2 Kings, And he got it from the 1st Temple scribes, But he apparently did not copy it verbatim.
29. kmcook said some 'secret' traditions say Akhenaten=Moses
30. JP said the ancient Hebrew worldview was not Saturnist; aretz
apparently always refers to some aspect of terrestrial Earth
and never refers to anything in the sky; other mytho-theological traditions do support The Saturn Myth, but The Hebrew Bible does not; it's correct that he favors Velikovsky's model quite a bit alongside Talbott, Cardona, Cook, van der Sluijs and Peratt; it's incorrect that he doesn't accept that Earth, Venus and Mars were in polar axial alignment
with Saturn's poles; re Creation Ex-Nihilo, he remains undecided.
31. Brigit said she wouldn't dream of criticism of DT or the Saturnian Configuration theory but is skeptical of psychoanalysis and imagery to re-write history
32. Moses described his catastrophist model
. [Note to Mo: I posted it at http://futureschool.boards.net/post/30/thread
33. JP said the JEDPR analysis
of Hebrew Scriptures that Charles seems to follow has been thoroughly debunked.
34. I asked Brigit to reference what psychoanalysis and imagery she was referring to re rewriting history; I told Mo I'd post his model soon; I told JP that Charles bases much of his thesis on archeological findings
and JP should do similarly; the oldest known Torah remnants were from 300 something BC [or later].
35. Charles agreed with JP that the Saturn theory ignores the gist of the whole Hebrew narrative, but There might be a catastrophist thread
in it, as recent research has identified evidence of a meteoric airburst over the Dead Sea
in the Middle Bronze Age, around 1740 bce, reminiscent of Sodom & Gomorrah; he thought Brigit referred to Freud; he told JP if redactors
didn't rework bible chronology it would take divine intervention to get the conventional chronology to work.
36. Moses said he didn't get his model
37. JP disagreed with Charles re little astronomy/astrology in Judaism and showed Hebrew words for all of the planets out to Saturn; he showed that Jesus did not critique second temple prophets as Charles thought, but just the Sadducees
; there is significant absence of explicit Saturnian imagery in Scripture
, but there are many places where it can be deducted accurately; JEDPR
can never demonstrate, 1. What the 'original' documents were; 2. How/when/where the 'original' documents were changed to become the present documents; Josephus' Antiquity of the Jews referenced Christ; most of the clear editorial comments in the Torah
are glosses explaining some early cultural or linguistic phenomenon to a later, culturally-linguistically divergent readership.
38. Younger Dryas said take a wider view
of this period to realize the altered night skies would generate a half dozen new religions worldwide
at almost the same time; most history cannot be traced back before 600 or 700 BC; he quoted Irving Wolfe; no new Gods were added.
39. Charles said he's taking all of the historical details from the Torah and the Deuteronomic History
to be rooted in fact, unless they're just not physically possible.
40. Maol asked if anyone is familiar with the Urantia
Book. [I'm not impressed by it.]
41. JP said though it may not be possible to live to 900 now
, it may have been possible in Noah's ante-deluvian world; proto-Saturn
encased in 'mist' of water agrees with the Bible as it mentions that characteristic of the ante-deluvian age; maybe plasmaspheric reflection
warmed the globe; the ancient Hebrew scriptures indicate their world was not anything like our world; the Chinese Shang Dynasty
supports biblical claims of past longevity.
42. JP thanked Younger Dryas re no new Gods were added after 600 BC.
43. Charles agreed that the applicability of the "here & now" to the "there & then
" needs to be questioned; it's difficult to understand how dinosaurs
such as the Argentinosaurus could have ever roamed the Earth, since their legs weren't strong enough to support their body masses, and their hearts weren't powerful enough to pump blood all of the way to their brains; perhaps the atmosphere was a lot thicker
then, providing a lot more buoyancy, enabling larger/taller animals; Then came the KT impact, which caused a dramatic reduction in atmospheric buoyancy; less atmospheric pressure might have affected vulcanism, and help explain the flood basalts
44. Brigit said the Bible does not say that God created the sun and moon
at the time of the six days of the reformation of the earth, in Genesis
45. Brigit said Gen 1:16 God made two great lights; Psalms
may seem to say the "two great lights" were the sun and the moon, but there is a small difference between the terms for "lights", so the Psalms passage may refer to the new lights only.
46. Brigit added some context for the two lights passages; God was ordering the heavens and earth for Keeping time
47. perpetual motion seemed to say Earth is much younger
than 6,000 years; rapid continental drift isn't likely; someone says these Bolides could not come into contact
with this planet, they would explode in the upper atmosphere; All “craters” are from planetary lightning; the super continent broke apart from centrifugal force; use logic and don't depend on a book of local history
, the bible.
48. JP said it seems the unknown author of Psalm 136
was wrongly interpreting Genesis 1:14-16 as meaning the sun and moon; perpetual motion's supposition that the Hebrew scriptures relates only to local history
is easily falsified in Genesis etc.