Ireland is Atlantis!

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby Joe Keenan » Sat Apr 25, 2009 7:46 am

I always knew the Irish were special, seems a geographer thinks Ireland was the inspiration for the geographical description of Atlantis, I recommend the book, very provocative. The catastrophic nature of the destruction of Dogger Island might be of interest

http://atlantisinireland.com/
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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:35 am

Hey Joe,
Looks interesting. At least the author understands where Plato is coming from, which more than I can say about any other Atlantis theorist. I'll be checking out his site.
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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby Joe Keenan » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:05 am

Thanks Grey Cloud!

The author lays out a very believable scenario. I can see how his scenario would work into the "Lost Age" EU model advocated here. I read many here advocating electrical scarring/phenomena as an alternative explanation for what others advocate is evidence of "glaciation" . Now, being water seeks it's own height the subsidence of Dogger Banks indicates either:

1. A rise in land,

2. A fall in land (or a combination of both)

3. A influx of more water

4. Some of all the above

As I understand it the ice age/glaciation is proposed to explain topographical features, misplaced rocks and evidence of sea level rise. Now, being Dogger Bank is some 60 to 70 feet below water this would mean sea level rose by 100+ feet worldwide. Water seeks it's own level. Could that much water have been stored as ice on land? If not, where did the water come from? :?
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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby Joe Keenan » Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:32 am

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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby StevenJay » Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:50 pm

I dunno - I'm still leaning toward the notion that "Atlantis" refers to an era (Saturn?) and, rather than being a terrestrial place, it would be referencing a terrestrial view of the "Gods" during their most harmonious and beneficent era. . . before the ride went wonky and turned from leisurely merry-go-round into insane rollercoaster! :o
It's all about perception.
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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby Joe Keenan » Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:03 pm

StevenJay, I don't believe in a Golden Era, people are people and the've always acted they way they do now. Lining the planets up in a different order won't change peoples behavior. Also, your signature is a self refuting proposition, if there is no truth your statement is false. :shock:
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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:55 am

StevenJay wrote:I dunno - I'm still leaning toward the notion that "Atlantis" refers to an era (Saturn?) and, rather than being a terrestrial place, it would be referencing a terrestrial view of the "Gods" during their most harmonious and beneficent era. . . before the ride went wonky and turned from leisurely merry-go-round into insane rollercoaster! :o

Hi StevenJay,
What you are leaning toward has no relation to what Plato wrote about Atlantis. As I said in my initial post, the author understands where Plato is coming from and not just in Timaeus but in his philosophy generally. Plato's philosophy is not about the past or some supposed 'Golden Age'.
The various Saturn theories are incorrect because they are based upon an incorrect understanding of ancient texts. The Saturn theorists frequently mention a Golden Age but never mention, as far as I am aware, Silver, Bronze or Iron Ages. And if they are going to cite Heredotus, which they do, then they will also have to account for an Heroic Age.

I've read most of the material on the website and the guy lays out his theory systematically and coherently. He discusses his evidence pro and con and he sticks to what Plato when dealing with Atlantis.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby nick c » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:49 am

Greetings Joe Keenan,

The only source, afaik, for the Atlantis legend is Plato. All the literature and theories since proposed, are rooted in his story. Plato conveys the story through a chain of sources:
Socrates is told by Critias who was told by Solon who while visiting Egypt got the story from an Egyptian priest.
Plato may have been using the Atlantis tale as a vehicle for the presention of an idealized government, and it may have no real geographical location.
Tales of the destruction of nations, islands rising and sinking, enormous floods, etc exist all over the world. They may refer to destruction of a super advanced (Atlantis) civilization, but it is (imhop) more likely that they are references to the partial or complete destruction of different human cultures in different parts of the world.
Back to Plato, how much info can we extract from only one (Plato) source? Certainly it is worth something, but until it is linked with other tales, myths, sources, scientific discoveries, etc. etc., its' value is diminished.
But Plato's story does have connections...

1. Plato states that Atlantis was destroyed due to a change in the course of the heavenly bodies. This is consistent with world wide stories of destruction associated with changes in the observed appearance and/or motion of celestial bodies. The heavenly bodies as observed from Earth appeared to move on different courses than expected and it resulted in world wide destruction. How would one know that a change in the apparent motion of heavenly bodies (as observed from Earth) would result in global destruction? Why would one (correctly) conclude that this would be the case, if it was never experienced? Another example (it may or may not refer to the same events) of this is in Isaiah 14:12, where it is told that Lucifer (Venus) the "destroyer of cities," "shook the world," and "weakened nations" attempted to ascend to the throne of heaven (overhead, where Venus can never be observed in todays celestial arrangement) and was cut down (confined to the horizon, it's present state.)

2. Phaethon lost control of his father's (the Sun) chariot and burnt the Earth, and was subsequently destroyed by a thunderbolt. Numerous interpretations and connections to the myth of Phaethon have been made by various catastrophic researchers to other Greek myths as well as those of other nations, including the ubiquitous thunderbolt (the preferred weapon of the gods) reference.
Plato connects this myth to the story of Atlantis.

3. The story of Phaethon is mythical version of the truth.
This statement by Plato is a hint to the celestial origin of past catastrophes being contained within myth. If this myth is really the story of celestial bodies as Plato states, then are other myths rooted in the celestial bodies?
Aristotle tells us this is the case:
A tradition has been handed down by the ancient thinkers of very early times, and bequeathed to posterity in the form of a myth, to the effect that these heavenly bodies are gods, and that the Divine pervades the whole nature. The rest of their tradition has been added later in a mythological form to influence the vulgar and as a constitutional and utilitarian expedient; they say that these gods are human in shape or like certain other animals...
Aristotle, Metaphysics 12.8.1074

This sheds a different light on all of the various tales of theomachy and battles of the gods.

4. Plato asks why have the Greeks forgotten the great catastrophes suffered by humankind? His answer (via the Egyptian priest) is that literate men perished and the art of writing was lost, presumably the only means of transmission was stories such as Phaethon, whereas Egypt carved their stories in stone allowing future survivors to learn from their ancestors.


Of course we can obtain much wisdom and insight from Plato's writing, but that is irrelevant to any attempt to reconstruct catastrophic events that took place in times before his experience. Indeed, an important element of Plato's message in the Atlantis story, is that the story of those catastrophic events from previous eras, and the role of the heavenly bodies had been forgotten.

Predictably and periodically, someone comes up with a theory as to the site of the legendary Atlantis.
Locating Atlantis in Ireland, in Bimini, or Crete, or wherever, is probably a futile effort. Any or all of these places could have been the site of lost civilizations that are not necessarily connected to each other or to Plato's Atlantis. There have been (more than one) enormous paroxysms of nature on a global scale resulting in the destruction of civilizations, some areas suffering more than others. Therefore it is not unusual to find that the collective memories of lost civilizations are common around the world. No lost super advanced civilization is required to explain the evidence.

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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby nick c » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:16 pm

And oh, Ireland is still special ;)

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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby Joe Keenan » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:47 pm

Hello Nick! I'm pretty familiar with the Atlantis motif (although I'm sure there are plenty of people who know much more about it than me), and catastrophism, read Velikovsky as a teenager (how anyone could read Earth in Upheaval and not concede something huge happened is beyond me), I do believe earth was devastated by natural disasters on a huge scale, cause, or, causes are debatable to me though. To my mind the EU model opens up a fuller range of explanatory options. I believe something along the lines specified in my links could have happened, although I find the Ice Age hypothesis hard to believe, hard to believe enough water was tied up on land to cause sea levels rose as high as they are supposed to have. Climate change (again the EU model opens up more explanatory options), may have changed history, see Felipe Vinci's book, The Baltic Origins of Homers Epic Tales for a good example of climate forcing mass migrations of people and changing history.

Ireland rocks!
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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby StevenJay » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:36 pm

Joe Keenan wrote:[...] people are people and the've always acted they way they do now. Lining the planets up in a different order won't change peoples behavior.

How do you know this, Joe? Where is the "control group?" Besides, it's not about the planets being aligned in a different order, it's about what happens when that ever-trusted order unexpectedly descends into planet-scaled chaos, death and destruction. You seem to be implying that someone (or an entire society) who has experienced inexplicable terror (or inexplicable awe and wonder, for that matter) will behave much the same as one who has not. That definitely hasn't been my experience.

Joe Keenan wrote:Also, your signature is a self refuting proposition, if there is no truth your statement is false. :shock:

You're absolutely right. . . according to your perceptions (although, for the sake of accuracy, I said nothing about "truth").

As I perceive it, the "truth" is, there are no absolute "facts." They are merely constructs that are only relevant within the confines of one's perceptions in any given moment.
It's all about perception.
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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby Plasmatic » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:02 am

As I perceive it, the "truth" is, there are no absolute "facts." They are merely constructs that are only relevant within the confines of one's perceptions in any given moment.


This is itself another claim to "absolute fact"!
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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:28 am

Plasmatic wrote:
As I perceive it, the "truth" is, there are no absolute "facts." They are merely constructs that are only relevant within the confines of one's perceptions in any given moment.


This is itself another claim to "absolute fact"!
No it isn't as Steven qualified it by by stating 'as I perceive it', which suggests to me that it is his subjective opinion.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby Joe Keenan » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:13 am

If truth is determined by perception, if it's subjective, the electric universe is pointless to investigate, it's pointless to argue relativity is wrong, both would be just another subjective perception of reality, therefore correct for relativists. There is either truth which can be known, which is the purpose of the scientific method , or, assuming all perceptions are subjective, there is no point for science.
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Re: Ireland is Atlantis!

Unread postby Orlando » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:58 am

Atlantis was and is the state of Man on Earth. Earth was Atlantis.
Ireland was one of the hubs as all the Megalithic centres were connected to the Energy grid of the earth.
they possesed knowledge of the Universal mind by attunement.

We must be very careful in the terms we use and their intent for the mind's eye is decieved by symbols when they are mixed with personal views.

From Observations we know that these ancient civilizations possesed great knowledge,
All great knowledge comes from attunement with Nature.
Finding our truth is a mind job, there is only reality through experience.

So, we had a world wide civilization that was destroyed and raped of their knowledge
by these empire builders who's Primary goal was to obtain all knowledge and keep it Secret for
the manipulation and dominance of their manufactured Subjects.

The Persians, the Greeks , the Romans, even as far back as Sumeria did not just pop out of noowwhere and built Huge empires, they had burned the cathars at the stake so to speack for technology, technical knowledge is the only Science of Man.
Technical knowledge comes from experimenting while following Nature to achieve a Desired Result.

The Empire builders cannot hide Nature from their subjects eyes, they can only through control and authoritarian games subtly play on our egos to disinform, create debates and watch us squablle about mis- interpretations to which people take sides and the original aim has become unimportant.

The winner always rewrites the book.

We had a time ago where technical knowledge was shared by all for all.
Then something happened, Man discovered the Secrets of Life, that he had no law and can do what he pleases by force,
this brought about the era of Ethics and Morality, technology blinded those that did not understand its beauty.

Ireland is a magical place, but there are many, it was the model for a great future of mankind,

Atlantis will Rise Again.

Peace
Or
Teach me a fact and I'll learn; Tell me the truth and I'll Believe;
Tell me a Story and it will live in my Heart forever--

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