Comets from Venus?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Comets from Venus?

Unread postby johnm33 » Thu May 11, 2017 11:09 am

I know the common veiw in EU is that comets react with the changing voltage as they approach the sun, but the idea occured to me that if Venus emerged from the heart of Jupiter/Saturn where like the center of the sun it was depleted of electrons, then is it possible that some comets are remnants of Venus and it's encounters with the other planets?
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Re: Comets from Venus?

Unread postby moses » Thu May 11, 2017 6:55 pm

Hi johnm33,
I suppose you mean asteroids, not comets. And there are different types of asteroids, but mainly asteroids that could have come from Earth, and iron-rich asteroids. And the source of these iron-rich ones is unknown.

For this question it matters little where Venus came from. The temperature of Venus needs to be explained and one may be looking for very hot asteroids, which one might think that will make such a hot asteroid appear cometary.

Then there is the iron-rich deposits and sands of Australia which likely came from another planet. Mars is clearly a candidate for the source of such, and so also a source for the iron-rich asteroids. Especially because there is much material missing from one of it's hemispheres.

So there does not appear to be much evidence for much material coming from Venus, except for the myths or stories of stuff coming from heaven presumably during an interaction of Venus and Earth.

Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Comets from Venus?

Unread postby Cargo » Thu May 11, 2017 9:47 pm

Why did you say 'but'? edit: I mean the OP but not the response but. :)

Where a body comes from or goes to is less important then first determine what it is and where it is.

A Comet 'from' Venus? Or a Venus that looks like a Comet for a brief immortal period of timé.
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Re: Comets from Venus?

Unread postby johnm33 » Mon May 15, 2017 5:17 am

Moses, I do mean comets, if Venus did emerge from the center of what was previously a sun, and it was depleted of electrons, and was involved in the near misses with Mars and Earth which led to the creation of valles marinus and the carolina bays amongst other features, then it seems logical that there would be damage on a similar scale on Venus and just as we get Martian meteorites I would expect some Venusian remnants to persist either in whatever orbit Venus once followed or blasted off on to some other random trajectory. That would suggest an alternative explanation for the apparent electrical behaviour of comets. [although i wouldn't be at all surprised to find someone else here has previously thought about this].
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Re: Comets from Venus?

Unread postby moses » Mon May 15, 2017 7:31 pm

Hi johnm33,
If you are talking about Venus please write cometary Venus and not comet. So the Carolina Bay gouges would be due to an electrical strike, not an actual comet impacting Earth.

One would expect to find Venus rocks that have been blasted into space. Instead we find Earth rocks and Mars rocks which form the two basic types of asteroids.

Perhaps we should look at the Venus surface:
http://www.space.com/18525-venus-composition.html

Venus is still a puzzle, to be sure. Heaps of volcanoes suggests a very electrical time. Perhaps the large atmosphere slowed down blasted surface material enough to retain most of it.

Having Venus being birthed recently is not necessary if Venus orbited nearer the Sun. This is a much simpler solution which allows Earth and Mars to form asteroids about where the asteroids are now. Also when Venus interacted with Mars, say, the sudden brightening would appear as a sphere ejecting a smaller sphere hence giving rise to the idea of birthing.

Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Comets from Venus?

Unread postby Cargo » Mon May 15, 2017 8:51 pm

I tell you what, reading articles on space.com makes some of the dumbest noises I can possible stand. Page after page of complete gibberish and bullsh!t. And to think of all the real tech and money that goes into these efforts. It's just astonishing. I feel sad for the entire human race.

Sorry for that. Anyway, very interesting discussion.

As retribution, I offer this link which shows a very comet like Venus "During a rare period of very low density solar outflow.."
http://sci.esa.int/venus-express/51315- ... olar-wind/

Stupid wind, always blowing the chairs over on my deck. :)
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Re: Comets from Venus?

Unread postby oz93666 » Tue May 16, 2017 5:41 am

johnm33 wrote:Moses, I do mean comets, i....


This hardly seems likely ...average temperature on venus is 460 C. it seems coments do have a lot of ice in them , so couldn't have an origin so close to the sun ...

also the energy to propel such a body out from venus to beyond the orbit of pluto would come from where??? massive energy and heat would blow away any water ...

the establish theory seems much more plausible.
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Re: Comets from Venus?

Unread postby moses » Wed May 17, 2017 8:23 pm

Ah,
were you suggesting that because Venus was cometary then material from Venus would also be cometary.

Venus was cometary because it had a tail, not because it followed a cometary orbit. It's orbit may have been circular. In fact the Venus orbit may never have changed because in the past more electrical conditions would have had the Sun much brighter and thus producing enough heat to explain the conditions on Venus.

It is just a matter of the double layers around Venus getting enough charge to move into glow mode for Venus to look like a comet.

Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Comets from Venus?

Unread postby johnm33 » Sun May 21, 2017 8:31 am

OK just to clarify the first link is as brief an account of the catastrophe scenario I'm talking about as you're likely to find. The second, and following pages, is the model for the core of a sun/star i'm using. It's clear that it's depleted of electrons and thus potentially very lively.
If this is what Venus was until recently then a violent stream of electrons bursting out of anything it approaches is to be expected, what I'm wondering about is how would that massive influx of electrons impact venus? I suspect something on the same scale as the valles marineris and the carolina bays, sufficient to blast portions of Venus into space, still light a few electrons. It may be that the trajectory of comets hold some clues to the path of Venus before it was 'captured'.
http://www.dharmasanctuary.org/2012/07/ ... iguration/
http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Pages/7224.html
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Re: Comets from Venus?

Unread postby Cargo » Sun May 21, 2017 10:14 pm

oz93666 wrote:it seems comets do have a lot of ice in them


Says who? Last I check both the surface and fragments retrieved from comet like bodies seem to indicate a charred and crispy nature. Like an electrical spark ember flying through Space.

Ice Sublimation has to be one the weakest arguments for a comet tail ever. I would bet my grand children that a Comet has about zero Ice/Water contained in it.
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Re: Comets from Venus?

Unread postby nick c » Mon May 22, 2017 10:39 am

oz93666 wrote:it seems comets do have a lot of ice in them
Apparently, even NASA or at least some parties within NASA, validate (perhaps unknowingly) the EU position on the source of "water" detected in cometary tails and coma. That is, that observations are easily explained by the interaction of the electric current from the Sun (aka solar wind) interacting with the rocky surface of the comet:

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-345/ch14.htm
[highlights my own]

14.6. INFERENCES ON THE NATURE OF COMETS FROM EMISSION CHARACTERISTICS

The assumption of ices as important bonding materials in cometary nuclei rests in almost all cases on indirect evidence, specifically the observation of atomic hydrogen (Lyman [Greek letter] alpha
emission) and hydroxyl radical in a vast cloud surrounding the comet, in some cases accompanied by observation of H20+ or neutral water molecules.
In addition, CH3CN, HCN, and corresponding radicals and ions are common constituents of the cometary gas envelope. These observations can be rationalized by assuming (Delsemme, 1972; Mendis, 1973) that the cometary nuclei consist of loose agglomerates containing, in addition to silicates (observed by infrared spectrometry (Maas et al., 1970)) and also water ice with inclusions of volatile carbon and nitrogen compounds.

It has been suggested by Lal (1972b) that the Lyman a emission could be caused by solar wind hydrogen, thermalized on the particles in the dust cloud surrounding the comet. Experiments by Arrhenius and Andersen (1973) irradiating calcium aluminosilicate (anorthite) surfaces with protons in the 10-keV range resulted in a substantial (~10 percent) yield of hydroxyl ion and also hydroxyl ion complexes such as CaOH.

Observations on the lunar surface (Hapke et al., 1970; Epstein and Taylor, 1970, 1972) also demonstrate that such proton-assisted abstraction of oxygen (preferentially O16) from silicates is an active process in space, resulting in a flux of OH and related species. In cometary particle streams, new silicate surfaces would relatively frequently be exposed by fracture and fusion at grain collision. The production of hydroxyl radicals and ions would in this case not be rate-limited by surface saturation to the same extent as on the Moon (for lunar soil turnover rate, see Arrhenius et al. (1972)).

These observations, although not negating the possible occurrence of water ice in cometary nuclei, point also to refractory sources of the actually observed hydrogen and hydroxyl. Solar protons as well as the products of their reaction with silicate oxygen would interact with any solid carbon and nitrogen compounds characteristic of carbonaceous chondrites to yield volatile carbon and nitrogen radicals such as observed in comets. Phenomena such as "flares," "breakups," "high-velocity jets," and nongravitational [236] acceleration are all phenomena that fit well into a theory ascribing them to the evaporation of frozen volatiles.However, with different semantic labels the underlying observations would also seem to be interpretable as manifestations of the focusing and dispersion processes in the cometary region of the meteor stream, accompanied by solar wind interaction.
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Re: Comets from Venus?

Unread postby johnm33 » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:27 am

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