Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby comingfrom » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:58 am

Thank you, Charles.

You just have to look at the interaction between the electric & magnetic fields.
I am still looking for the explanation of what electric and magnetic fields are.

In Newtonian physics, mass & energy are distinct. When waves travel across the surface of water, and then do work on the shoreline, converting solid rock to sand, that isn't the transfer of mass -- it's the transfer of energy. Of course, the energy acts on mass, and that which pounds on the shoreline has mass (i.e., the water). But that doesn't mean that energy & mass are the same.
I'm not saying energy and mass are the same, but force is proportional to the mass.

For a smaller mass of water, with the same energy, the erosion on it's shoreline will be less.
When the water dries up (i.e. mass = 0) then the erosion ceases.

Or, another example,
if I hit you with a baseball bat (i.e. massive), the energy at impact will be great.
If I hit you with a foam toy bat (i.e. low mass), the energy at impact will be small.
If I swing at you with no bat in my hand (i.e. mass = 0) then there is no impact, and no energy.

If photons had no mass they wouldn't interact with matter at all. And they would not 'push' particles in and out of the Sun.
Electric fields are fields of photons, in my humble opinion, and electric force is the force created by the displacement of photon mass. Photons are the main force for atomic, stellar and galactic structures.
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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby johnm33 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:56 am

Thanks Charles, how would that image look if it went from the galaxy recieving energy, feeding the sun, feeding jupiter, feeding it's moons? Does the energy translate from electrical to magnetic and back or?
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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby Webbman » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:02 am

heat, electricity, and light are all very closely related so it makes sense that the structure that make them possible are also related in some way.

what could be simpler to explain than a line, a circle and a circle with a twist in it? Are not the structures defined by how they move and store energy on a fundamental level?

if you want to call an electric field photons I have no issue with it, as it is very close to photons (only one transformation away) but an electric field doesn't behave like photons so there must be a change in the structure somewhere to account for.
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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:59 am

johnm33 wrote:Thanks Charles, how would that image look if it went from the galaxy receiving energy, feeding the sun, feeding Jupiter, feeding it's moons? Does the energy translate from electrical to magnetic and back or?

I haven't seen any evidence of any substantial amount of energy coming in from outside of the solar system. Within the solar system, the energy that reaches the outer planets is quite slight. As concerns the idea that all celestial orbs are daisy-chained together, and that without the energy that the receive from these interconnections they would have none at all, I don't see the evidence.

Webbman wrote:if you want to call an electric field photons I have no issue with it, as it is very close to photons (only one transformation away) but an electric field doesn't behave like photons so there must be a change in the structure somewhere to account for.

Right -- photons are fluctuations in the electric field. So the field can be there, exerting a force on a distance object, but without the exchange of any photons. But if the field fluctuates, the photons are there, and this can induce time-varying effects on the distant object. This isn't an hypothesis -- I'm talking about things that were quantified in laboratory experiments in the 1700s, and more thoroughly in the mid-1800s. I might not be able to "explain" such things, but the essential components of EM are well known, and are not contentious.
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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby Webbman » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:12 am

well certainly anything new is suspect due to gangster infestation, but lets face it a photon will bounce off your hand. You may absorb some of its energy but it will still bounce and keep bouncing until its momentum/energy is depleted.

al electric field will go right through your hand. This is easily explained.

the free strands that align are all individuals and thus each one aligns as an individual, like a pin being pushed through a cloth, but many many pins.

the diameter of the loop that we call the electron or even photon is too big to do this to the same extent, though if you torsion the loop enough it approaches the ability to do this and we see this with things like xrays and gamma rays(which have very small diameters, due to extreme torsion).

imo it really is that simple.
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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby Webbman » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:47 am

which is also why you have to move something through the field to transfer the momentum. It don't "reconnect" like they want you to believe. Each one reforms individually in real time (sheared and reconnected all the time) and the electrical nudge is the result when it does this. The basis for things like electric motors, mri's etc. Why else do you think it requires such high rotation and field strength to get anything out of it.

If it was any other way a mri would be lethal at those energies.
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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby comingfrom » Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:56 pm

Thank you, Webbman.

if you want to call an electric field photons I have no issue with it, as it is very close to photons (only one transformation away) but an electric field doesn't behave like photons so there must be a change in the structure somewhere to account for.
If electric fields are photons, then that is how photons behave in fields.

How do you expect photons to behave?

~~~~~
Thank you, Charles.

I haven't seen any evidence of any substantial amount of energy coming in from outside of the solar system. Within the solar system, the energy that reaches the outer planets is quite slight. As concerns the idea that all celestial orbs are daisy-chained together, and that without the energy that the receive from these interconnections they would have none at all, I don't see the evidence.
The papers which speak of the incoming energy tend to call them "inflow events". I found that is the best term to google for evidence of energy coming into the Sun from outside.

Right -- photons are fluctuations in the electric field. So the field can be there, exerting a force on a distance object, but without the exchange of any photons.
So what is in your electric fields, Charles, that exerts the force?

But if the field fluctuates, the photons are there, and this can induce time-varying effects on the distant object.
And if the field doesn't fluctuate, then the photons aren't there?
(I don't really get what you are saying.)

This isn't an hypothesis -- I'm talking about things that were quantified in laboratory experiments in the 1700s, and more thoroughly in the mid-1800s.
Yes, the potential, and the forces have been quantified.
Still the fields are empty, except for the ions they effect.

I might not be able to "explain" such things, but the essential components of EM are well known, and are not contentious.
I was never happy with empty fields with plus and minus signs at the ends. I will contend for I believe there has to be a better explanation.

There must be something in the field causing the force, imo.
And we do have the electro-magnetic spectrum (light) for to fill our electro-magnetic fields.
Which has also been known for quite some time.

But for some reason, it is contentious to populate our electro-magnetic fields with photons from the electro-magnetic spectrum.

~~~
Thank you, Webbman.

well certainly anything new is suspect due to gangster infestation, but lets face it a photon will bounce off your hand. You may absorb some of its energy but it will still bounce and keep bouncing until its momentum/energy is depleted.
I think you are talking about photons of a particular frequency, namely visible light.

al electric field will go right through your hand. This is easily explained.

the free strands that align are all individuals and thus each one aligns as an individual, like a pin being pushed through a cloth, but many many pins.

the diameter of the loop that we call the electron or even photon is too big to do this to the same extent, though if you torsion the loop enough it approaches the ability to do this and we see this with things like xrays and gamma rays(which have very small diameters, due to extreme torsion).

imo it really is that simple.
If it was simple, electrical theory would well explained and the explanation agreed upon. I suspect photons interact with each other as well as with matter, move in bidirectional flows, and cause different particles to move in different directions in the same field. We observe an almost infinite variety of effects from electric forces. I believe it is complexity which keeps us from the definitive mechanical theory that all can agree on.

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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby Webbman » Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:08 pm

what I'm getting at is that something can have more than one shape and the shape itself will often determine its behavior.

I'm not in disagreement with you about the photons, only the form of the photons required to get the behavior of the electric field.

even though the electromagnetic strand and a photon are identical except for the shape I prefer to use the term strand because it is the base configuration.
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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby comingfrom » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:52 pm

Thank you, Webbman,
but I believe the Universe prefers spheres.
Everything is spinning and orbiting, which tends to form spheres and spiral motions.
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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby toni » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:03 pm

I would like to add some points here and remind you as well of a few things.
0 universe - cubes waves boundaries something like a vacuum tube glass.

Second dimension - aether - or inert gases - seeds of all matter - very low slow moving waves and they have a width and breadth but no thickness.

Third dimension - When the cathods decide to move they must move on both sides of the equator.
This is called polarization and the beginning of mass creation.
The very basic and simple principles of our world which could be building blocks for higher knowledge.

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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:51 pm

comingfrom wrote:The papers which speak of the incoming energy tend to call them "inflow events".

There are solar "inflow events" coming from within a couple of AU, but are there any coming from outside of the heliosphere?

comingfrom wrote:So what is in your electric fields, Charles, that exerts the force?

The electric field IS the force. So there isn't going to be anything inside the force that causes the force. If you're looking for a prime mover more fundamental than a force, you might end up chasing your tail -- any answer to the question of what causes a force will probably be another force, which of course would just beg the question.

comingfrom wrote:And if the field doesn't fluctuate, then the photons aren't there?

That's correct -- photons are generated by fluctuations in the fields.

comingfrom wrote:I was never happy with empty fields with plus and minus signs at the ends. I will contend for I believe there has to be a better explanation.

Go for it. I don't know what this pursuit is doing on this thread, but whatever.
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Re: Atoms, Stars, & Galaxies

Unread postby comingfrom » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:17 am

Thank you, Charles.

There are solar "inflow events" coming from within a couple of AU, but are there any coming from outside of the heliosphere?
I'll try to find a reference.

"The specific region Voyager is currently sailing through has been dubbed the “magnetic highway.” It’s located within the outermost part of the heliosphere’s border, called the heliosheath. A confusing place, this highway is where there appears to be a connection between the solar and interstellar magnetic lines, and is where the flow of charged particles moves in and out of the solar system.

Newly released Voyager data from August 2012 indicate its instruments had detected the solar wind—the particles emanating from the sun—that had been buffeting the spacecraft for nearly four decades practically flat-lined. At the same time, sensors detected skyrocketing levels of incoming galactic particles from outside the solar system."
http://voices.nationalgeographic.org/2013/06/27/voyager-1-reaches-gateway-to-galaxy-space/

The electric field IS the force. So there isn't going to be anything inside the force that causes the force. If you're looking for a prime mover more fundamental than a force, you might end up chasing your tail -- any answer to the question of what causes a force will probably be another force, which of course would just beg the question.
To me, that is like saying it is the paddock that produces the flour. And in a sense you would be right. But if we graze cattle in that paddock instead of growing wheat, then we'll get meat, not flour.

I believe you do have a name for what populates your field. Charge. Yes?
If there is little or no charge in your electric field, then it isn't much of a field. Am I right?

That's correct -- photons are generated by fluctuations in the fields.
Or some of the charge photons are spun up into the visible to xray range.

Go for it. I don't know what this pursuit is doing on this thread, but whatever.
I see charge is the connecting 'stuff' between atoms, and stars, and galaxies. Charge is what holds them together, and determines their shapes and motions. Charge is the driving force.
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