EU ETI

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:19 pm

lw1990
I wish I could help you but I cannot. You are not open to any new ideas because you believe you have, as they say, 'nailed it'. You pronounce with authority and finality on subjects with which you have only the shallowest of understanding. You suffer from what I term the 'arrogance of ignorance' - you believe that if you have not experienced something then nobody else could have.

Any sign of the links/refs pertaining to experimental evidence for Darwinian Evolution?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby lw1990 » Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:40 pm

@grey cloud
it makes perfect sense to me that you would conclude that
however remember I am arguing for determinism here.. pretty much the opposite of exaggerating my importance. I'm basically saying humans have as much detached control from their destiny as a rock pebble (none).

your ridiculous claims that I believe x or y are nonsense. I'm a male, I haven't given birth to a child as the mother, but i know mothers have that experience.. you obviously aren't thinking this through, it's like claiming I have never seen the color purple before; all because what? it felt good to type that?

I have no idea why you are so hung up about evolution/big bang stuff which has nothing to do with free will
my personal opinion on the matter is that the big bang theory is a wrong theory, basically oversimplified answer when the real answer at the moment is 'we don't know the origin of the universe', which the mob does not like to hear. unfortunately the world is full of people who invent an answer saying 'you can't give me a better one'. at the very least, the big bang theory doesn't tell us what morals and values we should have in our lives, give us stupid traditions, or divide us into factions to go to war, so in that sense, even though I think it's dumb, it's better than creationism.

for evolution.. it's obvious nowadays, you can find much more evidence than I can give you just by researching yourself online, or merely using common sense.
when an asian breeds with a white person, their baby may have traits from both races, there you go - a new type of 'person' with unique combination of traits through a selection in a partner; no deity or creationism had a part in that new person, even if you are stupid enough to think they had a part in the original parents.

furthermore, the fact there is more than one type of lifeform (species, then races) itself is proof of evolution, evolution merely means the environment shapes a lifeform, the only alternative theory I've heard of so far is that a diety created them all, and we are merely mixing up the ingredients.. if that is true, I'd love to know what created the deity and why it couldn't have created us instead, lol.

you see, that is the paradox of all creationism theories - they assume a more complex/powerful entity than basic life created life, but that is not how the world works, it works by stacking simple building blocks to create more complex ones, a few atoms to make a molecule, not a molecule that magically creates simpler atoms, that kind of thing. we have to go by what the world shows us - that everything is made of smaller and smaller (simpler and simpler) parts, not what some humans tell us in some quote about how they 'feel' the universe has a bigger story and it all starts with their favorite cult/religion/philosophical bumpersticker.
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby jacmac » Mon Oct 31, 2016 9:18 pm

lw1990 said:
no proof anywhere that we can do something free of our past

If that is your definition of free will (FREE OF OUR PAST) you win.

Almost all of us had parents(our past), so how does that become total determinism ?

So, you are watching the big, ALREADY MADE, movie of life, and you are in it at the same time ?

Reminds me of the sixties, far out man.

But I digress.

How is your determinism useful in the pursuit of knowledge please ?

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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby lw1990 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:45 am

at the moment of your conception, you have no control,
at the moment of your parents conception, they had no control,
this recoils back all the way to whatever we were before humans,
and then what we were before that,
all the way to the simplest lifeform,
then the parts which existed before the simplest lifeform (ordinary non organic matter)

that takes care of everything before our conception;
afterwards, since we already established we had no control or say in our destiny up until that time, we are bound by the past. in order to do any single action that violates the environmental conditions thrust upon us after conception we would have to alter the chain of events all the way back to the origin of the universe; which is of course irrational

that is how having a past means total determinism

however it's just an explanatory tool, even if you were 'born' at the beginning of the universe somehow you would still not have true free will
free will is a human idea, it never existed in any real way, it doesn't reflect what the universe tells us can possibly happen, free will to any minute extent is a pandoras box of infinite possibilities, but we have only one finite and certain past, these ideas simply do not correlate since we know for certain the past affects the future in every way, it is the sole driver of the future

determinism is useful for not being distracted by ridiculous superstitions - even when they are not obvious like free will or religion, it simply trains someone to analyze something in a more complete way, it lets you use the data you've gathered in your lifetime to check for inconsistencies, based on an axiom of everything having to fit into the historical data set

deterministic viewpoints are not infallible of course, as data can be misleading, or someone might not analyze something enough to recognize it as a superstition; but it does help, the important thing is it's the most neutral and objective viewpoint one can take on any given subject, which is the best viewpoint for finding truth, on anything
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby moses » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:54 pm

lw1990, you do not know that at the moment of conception you had no control. This is just materialist doctrine in that the non-physical cannot produce action. Dualist, however, believe that action can arise from the non-physical.

Experiencing is non-physical and exists at conception and so could influence one's body. I certainly believe that it does.
Cheers,
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby lw1990 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:28 pm

everything is physical, emotions, thoughts, memories, or the images in your brain/eyes when you are 'experiencing'
but their true form lies within the body, not a soul or other superstitious construct
it is very simple, if you remove a persons brain (even parts of the brain), they cannot have these experiences - they then lack the ability to exert actions, that's how we know that actions are completely tied to the brain, not what you think, which is that they are tied to an imaginary non-physical thing which can't be taken away.
makes no sense that it would be taken away by removing a physical brain, if as you claim, it existed non-physically.

to put it in context of your example - if there is no brain for a fetus or baby or human, they do not 'experience', because it's tied to the physical brain. not one shred of evidence shows otherwise, which i know that's really a pesky fact when you want to make claims without considering real world data.

this is really simple common sense, shrouded by the arrogance of humans to feel important or supreme to nature, rather than part of it in every way

i know i had no control at conception because i have no control now, i merely used it as an example to let other people realize how we have no control by simplifying their focus on when they were at their most primitive state

when i say control here, I'm talking about control free of our past. we of course have body control, thought control etc, it is simply determined by previous events, not a non-physical entity. being non-physical by definition can have 0 effect on the physical. a math theorem for example cannot in any way influence reality, it's a non-physical, imaginary, thing (which only has a physical existence in the form of data on a computer, ink on paper, or synapses in a brain).
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby seasmith » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:52 pm

everything is physical, emotions, thoughts, memories, or the images in your brain/eyes when you are 'experiencing'
but their true form lies within the body, not a soul -lw1990


please stop for a moment and reflect young man, before metastasization sets in, how did you fall into this nihilistic black hole ?
?
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby Melusine » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:22 pm

lw1990 wrote:i know i had no control at conception because i have no control now.

Maybe you will have more control later.
Never give up.
Don't worry I am a late bloomer myself.
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby jacmac » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:13 pm

lw1990 ,

I believe a free will can exist.
But it must be nourished.
An imagination is helpful.

If you have no control
it does not follow that
something else has it.

Your scientific determinism is just that.
You have determined that an action or choice requires a physical/mechanical cause.
Therefore it does.

You have determined that science defines life.
I say life defines science.

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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby lw1990 » Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:31 pm

@seasmith
reflecting is how I got to this perspective, there is no nihilism or negative connotation in my mind on existence

@melusine
in determinism, free will control can't be attained, ever, because it's an illusion

@jacmac
I understand you believe free will can exist
it is a very popular belief after all
nothing has control, I'm not saying that some other thing has control
the universe to me is like the digits of pi; fixed, and certain, but the next digit is unknowable, until it is computed
in the same way events are fixed and certain; but nobody and nothing can ever know all of the next events, even with a perfect simulator, although they can predict a great deal in theory; not all

I have observed that actions, of which a choice is a type of action, requires a physical/mechanical cause, because that is what scientific observations/experiments show (as well as casual observation). There are absolutely no events anyone can point to as definitive examples of things happening without a physical mechanical cause, but there are plenty of things we can point to (like a baseball game and the path of the ball throughout) having a physical & mechanical cause. In other words, there is a mountain of evidence for determinism, and 0 for free will. Just because an idea is popular (free will) does not make it so. Just because you believe something, does not make it so. You need real world data to stand the test of time. In thousands of years, if we are still around, your idea will have faded out with your corpse, because you did not have real world data behind your belief, you had other humans supporting your belief only; that's not enough.
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:33 pm

Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.


Genuine reality is empty of conceptual fabrications
Nāgārjuna, Mūlamadhyamakakārikā
:ugeek:

Both from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby lw1990 » Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:33 pm

nihilism suggests that life has no intrinsic purpose/meaning, in determinism, any purpose/meaning would be determined by its own nature, for example, in order for any lifeform to exist for longer than a few seconds, it has to have a general purpose of 'survival', so we could say in the general sense, one purpose of life is survive (reproduction of some sort is only one part of this)

Specifically, human life is full of purpose and meaning to determinists, we have many reasons to exist which sum up to all kinds of different purpose, as well as several purposes (reasons) to cease existing, depending on the environmental conditions. If our life is bearable overall, we are given a reason/purpose/meaning to continue on. If our life is torturous, even temporarily, often that reason to live can be temporarily removed, and we can be driven to do things like intentionally end our own lives. Determinism merely suggests that this is all determined by external factors.

I think the reason you are confused about this is you haven't thought about what the meaning of life or purpose of life really could be, meanings are not limited to religious meanings such as a test for an afterlife, a valid purpose to live is simply because you had no choice, and your brain compels you to tend to procreate and generally do things that make you content or safe or whatever. That does not equal a life without purpose, it merely equals a life with a purpose perhaps different than the one you've been dreaming of for yourself.
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:24 am

lw1990 wrote:
nihilism suggests that life has no intrinsic purpose/meaning, in determinism, any purpose/meaning would be determined by its own nature
,

adjective: intrinsic

belonging naturally; essential.

synonyms: inherent, innate, inborn, inbred, congenital, natural, native, constitutional, built-in, ingrained, deep-rooted, inseparable, permanent, indelible, ineradicable, ineffaceable; More
From Google

Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value.
Note the word 'objective'.

lw1990 wrote:
Specifically, human life is full of purpose and meaning to determinists, we have many reasons to exist which sum up to all kinds of different purpose,
That is subjective, i.e. subject to one's being a determinist.

lw1990 wrote:
Determinism merely suggests that this is all determined by external factors.
You mean just like most religious people? That also is subjective, i.e. subject to external factors. This condradicts what you said in the first quote: 'any purpose/meaning would be determined by its own nature'.

lw1990 wrote:
I think the reason you are confused about this is you haven't thought about what the meaning of life or purpose of life really could be, meanings are not limited to religious meanings such as a test for an afterlife
If that is aimed at me then you are even more wrong on this than you are on everything else. 'Know thyself' and 'one eye for study and one eye for meditation' are the twin pillars of my life and have been for more than half of yours.
BTW your concept of 'life' would appear to be limited by your shallow understanding gleaned from your Abrahamic cultural upbringing.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby lw1990 » Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:00 pm

you fail to understand the term 'objective'
when lifeforms are born, they are given drives like for survival not of their choosing, or feeling, it is merely an innate instinct
as well as sexual drives that manifest later, not of their choosing, etc

on top of that, you can have subjective subgoals manifest, like, wanting to make money, which stems from the survival drive or other instincts

but it all comes from objective roots, ones you had no personal feeling or opinion in making (your dna)

by the way, saying I'm wrong on something doesn't make it so, you really need better arguments

in determinism, everything is caused by previous events, including your 'subjective' experiences
so while they may be 'subjective' to you as an illusion in the present moment, nothing is truly subjective or detached from the rest of reality since it was caused by previous events

basically, determinism suggests that everything that happens is completely purposeful - it is the only way things could have happened, and every event in theory can be traced back to rational causes/reasons for happening; nothing is pointless, and the 'intrinsic purpose' or reason any event happens is because it's a natural consequence of the events that led up to that event.

I think the reason you are again confused is you think that 'meaning' has to originate in a subjective human, or a human has to have magical power to affect the past timeline for 'meaning' to have value. These ideas are just that, they are not true in any objective way, and stem from superstitious beliefs in free will and the like. I carry on just fine, as do other determinists, without your need to believe in magical powers.
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Re: EU ETI

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:27 pm

lw1990 wrote:
you fail to understand the term 'objective'

Not dependent on the mind for existence; actual.
‘a matter of objective fact’
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/objective


lw1990 wrote:
when lifeforms are born, they are given drives like for survival not of their choosing
Given by who or what? What evidence do you have?

lw1990 wrote:
by the way, saying I'm wrong on something doesn't make it so,
Constantly making assertions without any evidence doesn't make it right. I have not just said you are wrong, I have asked questions which have gone unanswered, I have given definitions of words which you are using incorrectly and shown the contradiction in your staements. You have not presented one shred of evidence to back up your assertions and shallow thinking.

lw1990 wrote:
basically, determinism suggests that everything that happens is completely purposeful - it is the only way things could have happened, and every event in theory can be traced back to rational causes/reasons for happening; nothing is pointless, and the 'intrinsic purpose' or reason any event happens is because it's a natural consequence of the events that led up to that event.
Where too start with this...

Full Definition of determinism
a: a theory or doctrine that acts of the will, occurrences in nature, or social or psychological phenomena are causally determined by preceding events or natural laws

b : a belief in predestination
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/determinism


THE DETERMINISM AND FREEDOM PHILOSOPHY WEBSITE
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/dfwIntroIndex.htm

Purposeful.
1 Having or showing determination or resolve.
2 Having a useful purpose.
3 Intentional.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/purposeful
You appear to be using the word in the sense of 2 and 3 - So, what is the purpose, i.e. to whom or what is it of use and who or what provided the intent for the original cause?
How do you know 'nothing is pointless'? In order to make that stick you would have to know everything and be able to make an objective decision.

lw1990 wrote:
I think the reason you are again confused is you think that 'meaning' has to originate in a subjective human, or a human has to have magical power to affect the past timeline for 'meaning' to have value.
Well think again. That is about as far away from my position as it is possible to get. Why do you keep mentioning 'magic'?
I carry on just fine as do other people who study metaphysics and alchemy.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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