Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby moses » Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:20 pm

A very elliptical orbit might take many years.

We have provided evidence that strong electrical conditions affect the isotope ratios. I'm far too lazy to go through this again. But the dates provided over 5000 years ago are rubbish.
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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby comingfrom » Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:15 pm

Thanks Moses.

A very elliptical orbit might take many years.
That can't be, because a year is one orbit around the Sun.
I think what you meant is, an elliptical orbit might make a longer year.

But what are you suggesting?
One elliptical orbit happens every 100,000 years, and brings on an ice age?

We have provided evidence that strong electrical conditions affect the isotope ratios. I'm far too lazy to go through this again. But the dates provided over 5000 years ago are rubbish.
I'm skeptical too.
But even if we say plus or minus 50,000 thousand years, we're still left with a 50,000 to 150,000 year cycle.
Far too great a time span to be accounted by for by an elliptical orbit.

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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby moses » Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:05 pm

comingfrom,
Free yourself from the idea that lots of time was involved in the ice ages. Rather consider that the ice ages took a few hundred years or so. The creationists have produced abundant evidence that things could have happened very quickly.

Then that 100000 years of mainstream becomes one orbit around the Sun in a very elliptical orbit which would take a few of our present years.

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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby allynh » Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:40 pm

It seems the web page I linked to, up stream, is no longer available. But the pdf of the original article is.

The Coming Ice Age
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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby comingfrom » Mon May 01, 2017 4:09 pm

Thank you, Moses.

I'm trying it on, but the notion has problems.
A very elliptical orbit, at this distance from the Sun, may double or triple the length of a year.
Still, this would only effect a yearly cycle, though the year be somewhat longer.

An elliptical orbit of several hundreds of our current years would put the Earth out past Pluto, no matter what the average distance from the Sun.
And if the average distance was the same as our current distance, the perihelion would have been very close to the Sun.

Though I accept the onset of the ice ages could be rapid (the frozen Mammoths in Russia are evidence of that), and I accept the accepted dating may be way off, I still think we are looking at a thousands of years cycle.

I need more to convince me the orbit is the cause.
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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby johnm33 » Thu May 04, 2017 5:54 am

If Velikovsky is right in his interpretation of the 'myths' and Venus was indeed born from the head of Zeus[jupiter?saturn?] and roamed free around the solar system, and when it approached the Earth the electrostatic[?] shock caused the planet to slow it's rotation, and if as in revelations when that happened the rivers grew hot etc. Then there would be enough heat generated to evaporate a huge amount of water from the rivers/lakes/sea, not to mention how much it would warm the deeper layers of the planet, tipping some areas of mantle or magma into a more fluid state. Then just as legends say the sea rose out of it's bed, and flooded both east and poleward, depending where it was it could flow at up to a large fraction of the rotational speed at the equator. In the indian ocean it would carry huge amounts of debris up onto the northern shores destroying any city or civilization for miles [100s] inland. In USAM the pacific would rise out of it's bed and rush north and east leaving all sorts of sea creatures and salt in it's wake, creating flooded landscapes on a massive scale. It would be similar in Europe.
Once the evaporation had happened the atmosphere would expand hugely, and vapour being less dense than air would rapidly rise up and surrender it's heat to space. At the poles water levels would rise rapidly maybe as much as 300m above normal and begin to overwhelm low lying lands carrying polar sea creatures far to the south in the arctic [stranding them in the ice in the south].
Then of course Venus passes on and the rate of spin begins to accelerate, now the cooled water driven north and the land it flows over rapidly drops in temperature and the further it's driven south across siberia and canada the faster it freezes. The few creatures able to swim are flash frozen the salt drops almost instantly out of the water forming vast deposits below the ice, then it starts to rain/snow as all the previously evapoated water begins to precipitate, and we are left with permafrost levelling the landscape for miles, even frozen waves of debris feilds forming mountain ranges which gradually enconcrete over the ages.
So we're left with a traumatised population, tales of floods everywhere, complete ice cover at both poles and frozen earth maybe as far as 30deg from the pole [60degN is about halfway to the equator in terms of rotational speed]
Did this happen more than twice?
http://www.global-greenhouse-warming.co ... frost.html
This link is a cross section of Greenland ice you'll have to 'correct/stretch' the perpective in imagej, gnu or some such to see the frozen waves. http://imgur.com/J5oAtH0
Just food for thought
It'd be great if Moses could run the math
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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby moses » Thu May 04, 2017 7:58 pm

Is there enough energy to evaporate enough ocean water to form the polar ice, from Venus interacting with Earth?
At first thought it seems that a long interaction between Earth and Venus would be needed. If that much energy came quickly then it would wipe the whole Earth of life. So I think we have to consider Earth and Venus in a planet-moon type arrangement for a while.

So then lots of tidal forces, but the polar regions would get warmer too from these. And the temperature of the ocean water would rise slowly. So there are problems with the model.

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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby johnm33 » Fri May 05, 2017 11:25 am

I was thinking more of the translation of kinetic energy. You could say all the water between 30N and 30S is travelling east at 900mph, that between there and 60N/S at 750 mph. Obviously its not that simple because the water can move and shed some of that energy, the land can't and would heat up just as much, so wherever there's water it will evaporate and cool it's source. The effect would be real but less pronounced further north/south but from 60deg N/S the flooding would proceed at an incredible pace, a large fraction of 750mph! Forcing arctic waters far to the south, and carrying arctic species into the aral, black and caspian seas, possibly even to lakes baikal and balkash.
Meanwhile Venus depleted of electrons passes by raising an incredible amount of dirt into the sky as unimaginable cascades of lightning course across the planet, and the very dirt explodes to release it's electrons.
Now all the heating and evaporative cooling has passed, then the reverse happens and the previously cooled areas begin to lose heat to the reverse effect of heat translated to kinetic energy as the earths spin returns, and as the waters are now accelerated south on a different path they constantly cool until they are all frozen, even as far as 45degN/S. And once again then it snows/ rains [for 40 days and nights?]
This explains [to me] why so much permafrost is frozen seawater with just the salt missing, why beneath it and permeating it there are forests and sea creatures even now being converted to ch4, why whenyou look at sections through it where it's melting it's never just flat but full of wave formations. Why the equatorial lakes have such low biodiversity, and why there are arctic seals in lake baikal and arctic belugas in the black sea, and how the mammoths caught up in the vast floods, and swimming south were flash frozen as the sea water they were in turned in an instant to ice.
It's no wonder they tried to warn us.
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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby johnm33 » Fri May 05, 2017 12:17 pm

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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby moses » Fri May 05, 2017 6:24 pm

johnm33,
clearly there would have been a lot of water movement, but this producing the ice at the poles seems extremely unlikely.
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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby johnm33 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:26 pm

Mo I didn't think i'd be the first person with this idea, here's a short from Michael Stienbacher, i've been working my way through some of his ideas, and those of Andy Hall. Anyhow this is about the Missoula flood what really got my attention was his idea for the sudden cooling. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULuA1vVZhak
from https://www.youtube.com/user/michaelsteinbacher
Andy Hall https://thedailyplasma.blog/?wref=bif
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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby allynh » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:54 pm

The current cold weather along the East coast is an example of what I posted up thread.

- You can have an Ice Age with mild warming.

The cold Arctic air flowing over the Great Lakes causes the massive snowfall shutting down cites. That same cold Arctic air moving down the coast converts the moist ocean air to snow.

- The bad weather now is limited by how much water the Arctic air flows over.

If the Arctic ice disappears, the water from the Arctic ocean will fall as snow and rain, killing billions.

Winter Storm To Hit East Coast Could Shatter All-Time Cold Temperature Records
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/wi ... e5a7a96471
By Nick Visser and Willa Frej
Winter storm Grayson began bearing down on parts of the southeastern United States on Wednesday, bringing frigid temperatures, snow and ice to parts of the country that rarely see such weather.

The National Weather Service has warned that a “bomb cyclone” will bring “bitterly cold temperatures” as far south as the Florida panhandle, affecting the coast all the way up to Maine.

The agency’s local outposts released a slew of winter weather warnings beginning Wednesday. Cold temperatures earlier in the week had already left several people dead, with The Associated Press reporting at least a dozen deaths and Reuters reporting eight deaths.

Flurries fell from the sky early Wednesday, and ice had already begun to form in Georgia’s McIntosh County and near Tallahassee, Florida. The Weather Channel said temperatures in the Florida capital were lower than those in Anchorage, Alaska. Tallahassee hasn’t seen “measurable snow” since 1989, said Ricardo Humphreys, a National Weather Service meteorologist. A portion of Interstate 10 in northern Florida shut down due to the extreme conditions, also causing both the Charleston International Airport and the Savannah/Hilton Head International Airport to close down.

“Bomb cyclones” form when a weather system rapidly drops in pressure and quickly intensifies ― a process called bombogenesis, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association.

“Reinforcing shots of arctic air will continue across much of the Eastern half of the country through this week keeping afternoon highs as much as 10 to 20 degrees below normal,” the agency said Tuesday.

The Washington Post notes the storm will “in many ways resemble a winter hurricane” and said the event could be one of the region’s most intense in decades.

Forecasters also warned of near-blizzard conditions in Boston, freezing rain in Charleston, South Carolina, northern Florida and southern Georgia, and snow near Jacksonville, Florida. An area stretching from north Florida to southeastern North Carolina is at risk of ice accumulations of one-tenth to one-quarter inch through Wednesday.

The entire state of Maine is susceptible to blizzard conditions, The Weather Channel notes, as are parts of southern New Hampshire and eastern Long Island.

Winds in some areas are expected to blow between 30 mph and 50 mph, and will be especially strong over the ocean, where they’ll approach hurricane force.

Mashable’s Andrew Freedman notes the storm could pull bitterly cold air down from the North Pole to parts of the Eastern Seaboard. Temperatures could drop low enough to shatter some records, Freedman writes:

“The cold weather that will result is going to be more frigid than anything that residents of the Midwest and East Coast have experienced so far during what has been an unusually intense and long-lasting cold snap. Instead of breaking daily temperature records, as dozens of cities have been, all-time cold temperature records will be threatened on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.”

The weather should warm up by early next week, but the ongoing frigid temperatures could make the start of 2018 one of the coldest on record.

Bomb Cyclone
https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/bombogenesis.html
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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby johnm33 » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:22 pm

Going back to yahyamsy' point, since sirius does not precess as other stars do, it's likely that it follows us on a similar trajectory, unless someone has an idea that makes more sense. So perhaps we only need to keep an eye on sirius, from which we could assess whether there's any synchronicity in the variation, and thus the speed of the transmission of the 'force' that feeds both. http://binaryresearchinstitute.com/bri/ ... 24x530.jpg
My own veiw is that the sphinx was originally a dog, it is after all a dogs pose it sits in, and perhaps it was aligned with the heliacal rising of sirius, if it's still close it would suggest that it's not precessing in the long term either.
On the sudden catastrophic cooling subject, given the amount of heat that would be expressed by the earth simultaneously ceasing to spin and slowing to a wider orbital path, once the seas had ravaged the surface in it's passage east and poleward, the rocks of most of the crust would become red hot and malleable, and move in thier turn. Then with the return of spin the oceans would rush to the equator cooling and fracturing the rocks in passing, evaporating filling the atmosphere with vapour, doubling or more it's volume, then venting the heat at the top of the atmosphere a deep frozen hail falls to earth and this in a constant cycle until the rocks cool enough to halt the process. This process adding to the deep freeze caused by the reverse effect, where saturated ground was kept cool by evaporation during the slowing, only to flash freeze when spin returned.
So mountains formed as waves from fluid rock, salt settles out beneath the permafrost as oceans pass over supercooled ground, permafrost will contain both ex-seawater with the salt alone removed some areas of deep frozen cleaner water reflecting the ionic content of the catastrophic atmosphere as witnessed by the hail, plus some areas where rain/snow fell levelling out the surface as it froze in it's turn. Perhaps the northern ocean was rather larger than it is now and we have yet to recover from the cooling aspect of the cataclysm.
One last thought is that perhaps the cooling which the ancients record before the catastrophy was caused by Jupiter slowly catching up with the sun proir to it's capture, usurping the suns share of the energy from galaxy central, until they met.
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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby allynh » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:56 pm

Snow falls in Sahara desert for third time in 40 years
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 49226.html
Samuel OsborneWednesday 10 January 2018 16:46 GMT
Snow has fallen in the Sahara, covering desert dunes in a layer up to 40cm deep.

Snow started falling on the Algerian town of Ain Sefra in the early hours of Sunday morning, giving children an opportunity to race each other down the slopes. Rising temperatures meant it began to melt later in the day.

It is the third time in nearly 40 years the town, known as “The Gateway to the Desert”, has seen snowfall.

sahara-snow2.jpg
Ain Sefra has seen record lows of -10.2C in winter (Hamouda Ben Jerad/via REUTERS)

In 1979, a snowstorm lasting half an hour stopped traffic. Two years ago, snow settled for around a day, and the town saw snowfall again last year.

Sahara snow

Snow in the Sahara is “unusual but not unheard of”, a spokeswoman for the Met Office told The Independent

“It seems like the snowy pictures were taken across the higher areas in the north of the region, towards the Atlas regions, so it’s not surprising that the area would see some snow if the conditions were right.

“With the setup over Europe at the moment, which has given us cold weather over the weekend, a push southwards of cold air into that region and some sort of moisture would bring that snow.”

What it’s like to cycle across the Sahara

Ain Sefra, which was founded in 1881 as a French garrison town, sees average high temperatures of over 37C in summer and has seen record lows of -10.2C in winter.

More about:
Sahara
Algeria
Ain Sefra
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Re: Ice Age - EU practical experiment thought

Unread postby allynh » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:21 pm

This is the type of thinking that will get us killed.

If the Arctic Ice is allowed to melt, if there is no geo-engineering solution in place before, then there will be no time to develop and use it once the Arctic Ice melts. Six billion dead, within one bad year of snow and rain.

I highlighted the key paragraph. This is like plugging you ears and saying, nah-nah-nah, to drown out hearing the concept. HA!

Chemical sunshade to slow warming may not be feasible: U.N. draft
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-clim ... SKBN1FF1CD
OSLO (Reuters) - The idea of spraying a haze of sun-dimming chemicals high above the Earth as a quick way to slow global warming faces so many obstacles that it may not be feasible, a leaked draft U.N. report says.

FILE PHOTO: People watch the first sunrise on New Year's Day at a beach in Tokyo, Japan, January 1, 2018. REUTERS/Toru Hanai/File Photo
The U.N. review of a planetary sunshade, mimicking how a big volcanic eruption can cool the planet with a veil of debris, is part of a broad study of climate technologies ordered by almost 200 nations in the 2015 Paris Agreement.

Proposals by some scientists to spray chemicals such as sulfur high in the atmosphere from aeroplanes have won more attention since Paris as a relatively cheap fix, costing perhaps $1 billion to $10 billion a year.

But such geo-engineering may be “economically, socially and institutionally infeasible,” according to a draft obtained by Reuters covering hundreds of pages on risks of droughts, floods, heat waves and more powerful storms.

The draft, by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) about ways to limit warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius (2.7 Fahrenheit) above pre-industrial times, is due for publication in October. It could still change substantially, the IPCC said.

Problems involved with “solar radiation management” include testing and working out rules for a technology that could be deployed by a single nation, or even a company, and might disrupt global weather patterns.

FILE PHOTO: A man walks over a bridge as smoke rises from chimneys of a thermal power plant in Shanghai February 23, 2015. REUTERS/Carlos Barria/File Photo

And it “would result in an ‘addiction problem’; once started, it’s hard to stop,” the draft says. A halt after several years could lead to a jump in temperatures because greenhouse gases would continue to build up in the atmosphere.

David Keith, faculty director of Harvard University’s Solar Geoengineering Research Program which is working for a tiny outdoor experiment to dim sunshine, said there was a misguided “taboo” against examining the technology.

“We need a serious research effort to understand its risks and potential benefits. Then we will be able to write informed assessments,” he wrote in an e-mail.

But many scientists are skeptical.

“To deploy it safely ... would take many decades,” said Myles Allen, a professor of geosystem science at Oxford University. He said it was “completely misleading” to suggest it could be an easy short-cut to slow warming.

Given the long time needed for research, it would be better to focus on ways to limit greenhouse emissions, he said. Allen said he was giving his personal views, not of the IPCC draft of which he is an author.

The draft also says rising temperatures could breach 1.5C by mid-century unless governments take unprecedented action. The Paris Agreement has been weakened by U.S. President Donald Trump’s plan to withdraw.

Editing by Richard Balmforth
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