Kepler was wrong

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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jtb
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Kepler was wrong

http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/seasons/en/ “As Earth orbits the sun, its tilted axis always points in the same direction.”

For noon to occur approximately at the same time daily, a point on Earth's axis must continually face the direction of orbital motion as opposed to always pointing in the same direction.

The illustration in the above NASA site shows America in direct sunlight (noon) in March and in Earth's shadow (midnight) 180 degrees later in September. If the above quote is true that Earth's tilted axis always points in the same direction, that is exactly what we should experience: a 12 hour change in time every 6 months or 180 degrees: 6 hours every 90 degrees. However, the sun is overhead at noon every day throughout the year and we don't have to change our clocks.

Since Kepler, no one has questioned that Earth's tilted axis always points in the same direction. “Every planet, according to Kepler, has a magnetic axis which always points in the same direction and remains parallel to itself, just as the rotation axis of the earth does without requiring the “third motion” postulated by Copernicus.” Page 395, A History of Astronomy From Thales to Kepler, by J.L.E. Dreyer. An observer at the center (sun) viewing an object rotating on its orbiting axis (Earth) always pointing in the same direction would see a different side of the object every 90 degrees with each orbit.

The nemesis of an imaginary (metaphysical) axle is a real (physical) axle. A point on a real axle always faces the direction of motion. The point on the axle will change, depending on which direction the axle is moving. If moving forward in a straight line or in a circle, the point is on the front side of the axle. If moving up, on the top side, etc....

If Earth was rotating on a real axle, a point on that axle would always face the direction of orbital motion and noon would occur approximately at the same time daily as is our experience. What then is the explanation for the seasons? Either the sun is moving vertically up and down to create the seasons, or, Earth is doing so in its orbit around the sun.

"The proof would be quite the same if the earth stood still and the sun moved in the circle round it, as according to Ptolemy and others." This is a quote from Copernicus on page 319 in A History of Astronomy From Thales to Kepler, by J.L.E. Dreyer.

An alternative explanation for noon to occur every 24 hours on a sphere in every season is for the sun to daily orbit horizontally, and at the same time, vertically in each season around a stationary Earth.

comingfrom
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Re: Kepler was wrong

For noon to occur approximately at the same time daily, a point on Earth's axis must continually face the direction of orbital motion as opposed to always pointing in the same direction.
For noon to occur the same time daily, the earth needs to do one full rotation daily.

The tilted axis only effects noon time at extreme latitudes, and causes the seasons (longer and shorter day times).

Here is an explanation for the cause of axial tilts for you.

~Paul

jtb
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Hi Paul, thanks for the link to Miles' paper. Very interesting. It may help explain the spherical ring theory held by ancient astronomers and supports Kepler's theory of solar and planetary magnetic interaction: possibly caused by electrical forces.

Earth's tilt is not what I question however. I question the axis always pointing in the same direction rather than the orbital direction of motion like a real axle. An axis is imaginary, so to avoid going down rabbit trails and to match reality, we must imagine the axis the way a real axle behaves.

Image pushing a wheelbarrow in a circle. The front of the axle is always facing the orbital direction of motion. With the axle always facing in the same direction, a different side of the wheelbarrow would be visible every 90 degrees to an observer at the center of the circle. Apply the same concept to the Earth-sun relationship. With the axle always pointing in the same direction, noon in March would be midnight in September.

Since we don't have to adjust our clocks by 6 hours every season, Earth's axis must be continually facing the direction of orbital motion.

kevin
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Another explanation is that the so called movements are not to do with the stars and planets, but instead are the spiral phase conjugate flows of plasma( aether, consciousness , yin and yang).
That all apparent movements are the plasma spheres reacting to these flows, where all within those plasma spheres go with them.
Thus the tilts are relative to the wave amplitudes of the phase conjugate flows.
The sun, or star is then downstream of all the resistors( planets), and is a consequence of the plasma pinch point of the collective plasma spheres about each planet.
Kevin

jacmac
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Re: Kepler was wrong

jtb said:
Earth's tilt is not what I question however. I question the axis always pointing in the same direction
and
The front of the axle is always facing the orbital direction of motion.
I have a couple of questions.

1) Do you agree that the end (either end) of the axis of rotation of the earth always points to the same place in the sky, as defined by the stars. Yes or no ? I think yes. The axis of rotation of the earth is always parallel to its previous position(s) in the solar year. The "pointing in the same direction" is being done by the END of the axis.

2) What is the "front" of the axle of the wheelbarrow?

Also, check out the difference between the Solar day and the Sidereal day.
With the axle always pointing in the same direction, noon in March would be midnight in September.
https://community.dur.ac.uk/john.lucey/ ... olsid.html

jtb
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Re: Kepler was wrong

jacmac wrote:1) Do you agree that the end (either end) of the axis of rotation of the earth always points to the same place in the sky, as defined by the stars. Yes or no ? I think yes.
Yes, the end of the axis points in the same direction if Earth is a stationary sphere or a flat plane. Place a flashlight (axis) in the middle of a spinning lazy Susan (orbiting universe). The light remains in the same place in relation to the fixed ceiling (stars).

No, if Earth is an orbiting sphere the end of the axis varies position continually. Move the flashlight to the edge of the spinning lazy Susan and the light on the fixed ceiling moves.

To which of these scenarios does the evidence point?
jacmac wrote:2) What is the "front" of the axle of the wheelbarrow?
A "point" on the axle facing the direction of circular or orbital motion.
jacmac wrote:Also, check out the difference between the Solar day and the Sidereal day.
A solar day is a complete rotation of an object on its axis. A sidereal day is one complete rotation of an object about the center of its orbit. If Earth was the sun, the moon would have a perpetual solar day: its not rotating on its axis. However, it would have one sidereal day.

jacmac
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Re: Kepler was wrong

jtb said
A solar day is a complete rotation of an object on its axis. A sidereal day is one complete rotation of an object about the center of its orbit.
You are misusing terms.
A solar day is a complete rotation of the earth(on its axis) relative to the sun, high noon to high noon, for example.
A siderial day is a slightly different complete rotation of the earth(on its axis) relative to the STARS.

A body in space is said to rotate about its axis and orbit around another body(in this case the sun). A body does not rotate about the center of its orbit, it orbits the center of its orbit.
Also,
Move the flashlight to the edge of the spinning lazy Susan and the light on the fixed ceiling moves.
Although you are correct on a very small scale, the expression "always points in the same direction" means that if you put your ceiling a few billion miles away, the flashlight always points to the ceiling. That is all it means.

jack

jtb
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Re: Kepler was wrong

jacmac wrote:A solar day is a complete rotation of the earth(on its axis) relative to the sun, high noon to high noon, for example.
Earth's rotation observed from the center: sun.
jacmac wrote:A siderial day is a slightly different complete rotation of the earth(on its axis) relative to the STARS.
Earth's rotation observed from a fixed distance: a star.

Location, Location, Location. The former observer is located in the center; the latter at a fixed distance, both observing the same object at the same time. Both see a different aspect of the same object: rotating Earth.

Dad, an observer at the center of a merry-go-round sees only one side of Junior mounted on the horse. Mom at a fixed distance away, sees all sides of Junior once per orbit. Both see Junior at the same time but from a different perspective.

jtb
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Re: Kepler was wrong

I stand corrected. In other words, I'm wrong. I have to apologize to Kepler and thank those that challenged me, otherwise I would have gone on believing a lie and wasting people's time. A point on an axis continually facing the direction of motion, or orbit, means it is somehow attached to the center of orbit. An axis always pointing in the same direction means it is somehow attached to a force external to the center of orbit. Regardless of how the axis is connected, noon in March should be midnight in September.

http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/seasons/en/ The illustration in the NASA link shows America in direct sunlight (noon) in March and in Earth's shadow (midnight) 180 degrees later in September. If Earth is orbiting the sun and making one complete rotation daily, that is exactly what we should experience: a 12 hour change in time every 6 months or 180 degrees: 6 hours every 90 degrees. However, the sun is overhead at noon every day throughout the year and we don't have to change our clocks.

Help me out. The only other explanation I can think of is the sun daily orbiting horizontally, and at the same time vertically in each season around a stationary Earth.

jacmac
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Re: Kepler was wrong

jtb said
http://spaceplace.nasa.gov/seasons/en/ The illustration in the NASA link shows America in direct sunlight (noon) in March and in Earth's shadow (midnight) 180 degrees later in September. If Earth is orbiting the sun and making one complete rotation daily, that is exactly what we should experience: a 12 hour change in time every 6 months or 180 degrees: 6 hours every 90 degrees. However, the sun is overhead at noon every day throughout the year and we don't have to change our clocks.
You need to learn the difference between a Solar day and a Siderial day. The small daily difference is causing the change of clock problem you are having. We all use the Solar time and length of day. (by "day" we mean 24 hours)
The siderial day is about 4 minutes shorter than the solar day. Thus, every 15 days the solar/siderial time difference is about one hour. to get 12 hour difference it takes 180 days(12x15).

The sun is overhead at noon every day because that is what we call a "DAY'. But, the solar day is about 4 minutes longer than one complete turn(on its axis) of the earth BECAUSE THE EARTH HAS MOVED IN ORBIT and has to keep turning(the 4 minutes) to get the sun directly overhead again.

An observer VERY FAR AWAY would say the earth made one complete turn about its axis every 23 hours and 56 minutes. This is what is meant by siderial time. One siderial day equals 23 solar hours and 56 solar minutes.
In your quote above you were thinking siderial, but using solar time.

Also, you said:
Dad, an observer at the center of a merry-go-round sees only one side of Junior mounted on the horse. Mom at a fixed distance away, sees all sides of Junior once per orbit. Both see Junior at the same time but from a different perspective.
I suggest that is a bad analogy because junior is fixed to the merry-go-round, not spinning on his axis.

Jack

Ps. The picture in the NASA link above was meant to illustrate the season changes due to the tilt of the earth axis.

jtb
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Re: Kepler was wrong

I'm a simple guy. A simpleton you might say. Before I can understand more complicated things I first must understand concepts in their most simplest form: how only two objects interact: one stationary (sun); the other rotating and orbiting (Earth).

One rotation/orbit: left side of Earth is facing the sun. 180 degrees, or 6 months later the right side is facing the sun.

Ten rotations/orbit: left side of Earth is facing the sun. 180 degrees, or 6 months later the right side is facing the sun.

365 rotations/orbit: left side of Earth is facing the sun. 180 degrees, or 6 months later the right side is facing the sun.

It's like Junior on the merry-go-round rotating on the pole (axis) through the horse's back. Observer at the center first sees his left side, than his right 180 degrees later, regardless of the number of times he rotates about that pole.

Help me out. We don't experience this 180 degree shift in time. The only alternative I can think of is that the sun is actually orbiting Earth.

john666
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Re: Kepler was wrong

jtb wrote: Help me out. We don't experience this 180 degree shift in time. The only alternative I can think of is that the sun is actually orbiting Earth.
You are of course correct.

All the stars have 1 year cycle orbit around the Earth.

Orbit around the Earth.

Astronomy has for the most part became pseudoscience, precisely because of atheist materialist reasons. Namely, we do not accept what our own eyes tell us, and as a consequence of that we get Kepler's pseudoscience, and the Big Bang pseudoscience, and the black hole pseudoscience, and the string theory pseudoscience...

You have nothing to apologize for, because you are correct.

comingfrom
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Re: Kepler was wrong

One rotation/orbit: left side of Earth is facing the sun. 180 degrees, or 6 months later the right side is facing the sun.
One rotation/orbit: left side of Earth is facing the sun... for half the day, right side the other half of the day.

180 degrees, or 6 months later the right side is facing the sun... for half the day, left side the other half of the day.

Since the earth is rotating daily.

From the center of your merry-go-round you would see all sides of junior every day (if he is daily rotating the pole), even though it takes the merry-go-round one year to put junior in the starting position again.

2 sides, times 365 days, equals 730 side viewings per year.

The Sun is orbiting the earth, relative to the earth.
That is, if you take earth to be your rest point.

~Paul

jtb
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Re: Kepler was wrong

Thanks, Paul. Not only am I a simpleton, I'm a dumb simpleton. I figured this out the other day and still got confused and wrote my last response. john666, thanks for the support but I was wrong.

comingfrom
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Re: Kepler was wrong

I wouldn't say that, jtb.

You simply had a misconception that was confusing you.
I wasn't even sure what your difficulty was, and I hoped just saying something might help.
~Paul

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