The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:16 am

@Comingfrom,

You replied:
Norman wrote.
TBP reveals a narrow geocentric world view
What you are saying is,
You are a god.
And you have a godcentric view.
And mere mortal human beings like us aught to shake off the delusion created by viewing from where we are at.

No, this is your sayings :-)
They were NOT the prime ancient gods and goddesses.
So do you believe the gods of ancient mythology ARE real primal gods? (since the planets are NOT them).

I don´t believe in personalized deities at all and I believe that our ancestors named some celestial objects (star constellations and the Milky Way contours) in their own images - except from the planets which just were "wandering stars" which of course and logically cannot depict anything else but a dot of light in the Sky.
When Mars came so close to Earth that men could see the Valles Marineris and so named him Scarface, and stone hailstones were raining upon Earth, I can imagine why they thought he was a god.
When Saturn stood stationary in our sky, putting on a display of variation, I can believe people would have thought he was a god.
When Venus passed so close by she took up half the sky, trailing dendritic strands of glowing plasma and hurling thunderbolts at Earth, what were the ancients to believe?

You presuppose the speculative Science Fiction of "a polar configuration" to be the fact, but "the ancients" didn´t have any significant focus on the planets in contrary to the star constellations and the crescent and seemingly revolving white contours of the Milky Way.

Read these myths:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_(mythology)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_(mythology)

Se if all the informations really fits to planets and gendered descriptions,
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:48 am

SUBJECT: "CONFRONTING THE REDUCED MYTHICAL UNDERSTANDING IN THE TBP".

In the newsletter of April, 15 David Talbott writes:
Confronting our Doomsday Anxiety
By David Talbott
April 15, 2017
After years of ignoring the most pervasive fear in human history, it is time to examine the roots of this collective anxiety. For such a purpose, we need only call upon the appropriate rules for evaluating human testimony.

Let a comet appear in the sky. Let the “zeroes" line up on a calendar. Let the weather turn violent, a spate of earthquakes occur, or world events grow unsettled—it seems that such events invariably trigger the rise of “doomsday anxiety.” For as long as any of us can remember preachers and gurus, religious cults, and wild men have responded to earth disturbances by pointing to imminent apocalypse.

Today little attention is given to the historic origins of this cross-cultural response, and the phenomenon may seem too trivial to merit concern. But the historic nature of the anxiety does deserve attention since no archaic culture was free from recurrent memories of an overwhelming catastrophe.

Ancient ritual and magic, in combination with early mythic and religious traditions, reveal many fears, beliefs, and yearnings shared by all of the early cultures. But the experiences to which they refer appear to lie beyond the ability of accepted science and theory to explain them. Science today has no frame of reference for dealing with the collective memories that drove the early cultures.

And yet rational protocols are available for assessing ancient evidence. The assessment requires cross-cultural comparison, with attention to a vast collection of words and symbols, ancient art, and ritual reenactments.

Despite a thousand local contradictions in mythic interpretation, the points of cross-cultural agreement can serve as reliable pointers to a global experience of vast importance to all of the sciences today.

Comment:Of course catastrophic disasters have occurred in all times all over the world, causing horror and awe for our ancestors.

And catastrophic disasters still happens in our modern times, even on the academic level. When scholars cannot read a mythical text and take the full context into account for their hypothesis, catastrophic disasters of understanding cosmos and ancient myths are bound to happen with their interpretations. When the ancient Stories of Creation and it´s factual connection to the Milky Way realms and beyond is reduced to count for catastrophic planetary events only, this is catastrophic in itself.

In this way modern scholars and laymen themselves contributes by their lack of natural understanding and logics to the factual modern times of doomsday anxiety, mostly caused by human mind itself.
And yet rational protocols are available for assessing ancient evidence. The assessment requires cross-cultural comparison, with attention to a vast collection of words and symbols, ancient art, and ritual reenactments.
Despite a thousand local contradictions in mythic interpretation, the points of cross-cultural agreement can serve as reliable pointers to a global experience of vast importance to all of the sciences today.

There is NO "local contradictions" in the ancient cultural Creation Myths. The ONLY contradiction is the planetary interpretation instead of the broader (and correct) Milky Way interpretation.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby comingfrom » Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:15 pm

Thank you, Norman.

No, this is your sayings :-)
Yes, that was my saying.
I am saying openly what you only insinuate and imply.

I don´t believe in personalized deities at all and I believe that our ancestors named some celestial objects (star constellations and the Milky Way contours) in their own images
You're not getting what I'm saying.

In the myths they called them gods.
In your explanation, they were seeing their own images.

except from the planets which just were "wandering stars" which of course and logically cannot depict anything else but a dot of light in the Sky.
Not if the planets wandered close to the Earth.

And when they did, then they would have taken the appearances, and rained the destructions, which the myths speak of.

You presuppose the speculative Science Fiction of "a polar configuration" to be the fact, but "the ancients" didn´t have any significant focus on the planets in contrary to the star constellations and the crescent and seemingly revolving white contours of the Milky Way.
I'm allowing for it.
The Milky Way is not the mountain of the gods.

Se if all the informations really fits to planets and gendered descriptions
It fits if you allow for a Saturn polar configuration.

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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Mon Apr 17, 2017 4:28 am

@Paul,
You replied:
It fits if you allow for a Saturn polar configuration.

If you allow anything from Science Fiction and discard the factual context of the myths, you can get everything to fit :-)

When you can provide me a logical and mythical explanation of how planets can be imagined and deified in male and female genders of the creation, I´ll consider to believe in the "alien polar configuration" :-)

mand.001.atlas.jpg
The Saturnus God who revolves around the celestial pole on the northern Sky. It takes a human like figure to describe a celestial image of a humanlike god or goddess. This is logically not possible to do with planets.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby comingfrom » Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:42 pm

Thank you, Norman.

When you can provide me a logical and mythical explanation of how planets can be imagined and deified in male and female genders of the creation, I´ll consider to believe in the "alien polar configuration" :-)
Just like ships are always female, according to their captains.
And just like all evil got personalized into "the devil" by the Christians.

It isn't hard for me to imagine, that a wandering planet, that wandered out of it's orbit and came threateningly close to Earth, got personalized as if it were a god.

It is hard for me to imagine how and why they got all the characters and events we hear in the myths, just from looking at the milky way.

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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Webbman » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:01 pm

could of been shot out of the sun. I bet something like that would make for an apocalyptic story.

boom venus comes right by and keeps coming by until it loses some of its birthing energy, picks up some debris and the orbit settles.

the comet is born.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:57 am

SUBJECT: "THE ROMAN FAMILY TREE OF PLANETS”???

How do the Velikovsky perception of mytho-astronomical interpretation really fits the full context in the mythical informations? Is there a logical astronomical and mythical consistency in the Velikovsky and his followers interpretations?

The Roman Pantheon Family Tree. From - http://www.tribunesandtriumphs.org/roma ... y-tree.htm

Roman Pantheon Tree.jpg

The Twelve major gods of the Roman Pantheon (Pantheon: Collective major gods of a people) were called Dii Consentes and were especially honored by the Romans. The gods and goddesses of the Dii Consentes were Jupiter, Juno, Minerva, Vesta, Ceres, Diana, Venus, Mars, Mercury, Neptune, Vulcan and Apollo.

Hold on a minute: Juno, Minerva, Vesta, Ceres, Diana, Vulcan and Apollo? What planetary connections have these names?

The most important Dii Consentes were Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva, known as the Capitoline Triad, and Mars who was the tutelary (patron) god of the city of Rome. The Roman Gods Family Tree charting the sons and daughters of Saturn and Jupiter is as follows:

Roman Gods Family Tree
The Roman Gods Family Tree is quite complex and explains the relationships between various Roman gods and goddesses.

The king and father of the Gods was Jupiter. Jupiter was the son of Saturn and Opis. Saturn was born from Uranus (heaven). He was the only child of Time who had complete sway over both mortals and immortals. The mother of Jupiter was Opis (aka Ops).

Saturn and Opis were of the race of Titans, who were the children of Earth and Heaven who sprang from Chaos the mother of the Titans. The Titans consisted of six sons and six daughters, the one-hundred-armed giants (Hecatonchires) and the one-eyed giants, the Cyclopes.

The brothers of Jupiter were Pluto and Neptune. The sisters of Jupiter were Vesta, Juno and Ceres. Jupiter and his brothers rebelled against their father Saturn and the Titans; vanquished them and imprisoned some of them in Tartarus, inflicting other penalties on others. Atlas was condemned to bear up the heavens on his shoulders.

Jupiter was the brother and husband of Juno. Jupiter was the father of the following Roman gods and goddesses:
Vulcan was the son of Jupiter and Juno, husband of Venus. Venus was the daughter of Jupiter and Dione, wife of Vulcan and the mother (by Mercury) of Cupid, god of love.

Minerva was the daughter of Jupiter and Juno. Apollo was the son of Jupiter and Latona. His twin sister was Diana. Diana was the daughter of Jupiter and Latona.

Mercury was the son of Jupiter and Maia who was the daughter of the Titan Atlas.
Bacchus was the son of Jupiter and Semele. Mars was the son of Jupiter and Juno. Proserpina was the daughter of Ceres and Jupiter.
----------

Immanuel Velikovsky got his thoughts about “Worlds in Collisions” from reading the Roman myths, for instants about the Roman goddess Venus as “daughter of Jupiter”, assuming planet Venus to once have been ejected from planet Jupiter.

The ancient knowledge of planets (wandering stars) included Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. When reading of the family tree of the Roman Pantheon, several other “family matters” are stated, for instants:

1. Jupiter was the son of Saturn and Opis.
2. Venus was the daughter of Jupiter.
3. Mercury was the son of Jupiter.
4. Mars was the son of Jupiter.

If taking these mythical information’s as astronomical explanations of planets, as in “the logics of Velikovsky and his followers”, planet Jupiter was once ejected from planet Saturn and not just planet Venus, but also planets Mercury and planet Mars supposedly also once should have been ejected from planet Jupiter.

When taking the mythical informations of Venus and Jupiter literary as astronomical facts, these mythical informations also should be dealt with astronomically by “the Velikovskians”.

It is very easy to assume planet Venus to have been ejected out from planet Jupiter, but what then about the other planetary matters? What about Jupiter being a son of planet Saturn? What about Saturn and Opis belonging to “the race of Titans”? Which planetary connection have the Titans? Which planet is named “Opis”, “Saturns wife”? And what about all the other names and objects besides the known planets mentioned in the Roman Pantheon? Were they also planets or what?

My conclusion have long been clear: Velikovsky and his followers were/are fooled by the Roman Empire deification of the planets when the empire abandoned their old Pantheon of Gods and Goddesses when adopting Christianity and named some planets in remembrance instead.

The Roman Pantheon and its connected mythical texts and symbols have nothing to do with planets. They are all Milky Way matters.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Webbman » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:41 am

how would they even see the planets as most were likely not visible.

seems to me that the names of the gods were given to the planets, not the other way around.

besides the sun and moon you might catch a glimse of mars and venus maybe with the naked eye. Certainly they would of needed to be much closer than they are now to get named.

even mars is just a dot in the sky.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:06 am

Webman wrote:
how would they even see the planets as most were likely not visible.
Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn were and are known as the 'visible plaents' precisely because they are visible with the naked eye.
seems to me that the names of the gods were given to the planets, not the other way around.
Correct. Ergo the concept of gods pre-dates the current planetary names.
Certainly they would of needed to be much closer than they are now to get named.
The seven Pleiads are all named and they are much further away than the planets.
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The great Way is simple
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby GaryN » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:13 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Webman wrote:
...
Certainly they would of needed to be much closer than they are now to get named.
The seven Pleiads are all named and they are much further away than the planets.

Or everything appeared to be closer?
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby kevin » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:57 am

GaryN wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:Webman wrote:
...
Certainly they would of needed to be much closer than they are now to get named.
The seven Pleiads are all named and they are much further away than the planets.

Or everything appeared to be closer?


Everything spirals, so when anything spirals closer, it will appear as if it is closer, but that actually depends upon how our eyes operate( if We view along spiral outward and return routes?)

These greeks knew about spiral timings.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:19 am

@Webman, Grey Cloud & GaryN,

Thanks for your replies :-)

GaryN wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:Webman wrote:
...
Certainly they would of needed to be much closer than they are now to get named.
The seven Pleiads are all named and they are much further away than the planets.

Or everything appeared to be closer?

Agreed on the ancient naming of the Seven Pleiads. And surely other significant star constellations also were named by our ancestors.

No matter how close or distant from Earth a planet is, it still is just a single white dot in the Sky. It has no form which can be ascribed to gendered and archetypical creation myths and human-like attributes. The myths of planets are non sense.

Regarding the proximity of celestial objects and its eventual ancestral naming, this of course also depends of the size of the actual object. The largest size of a celestial object on the night sky is of course the white crescent figure of the Milky Way, which seemingly is revolving around the Earth celestial axis. As the largest figure observable on both hemispheres, the mythical and ancestral description of the Milky Way logically and naturally belongs to the mytho-cosmological Giants. (Jotun´s in Norse Mythology).

As I cited above:
Saturn and Opis were of the race of Titans, who were the children of Earth and Heaven who sprang from Chaos, the mother of the Titans. The Titans consisted of six sons and six daughters, the one-hundred-armed giants (Hecatonchires) and the one-eyed giants, the Cyclopes.

Roman Pantheon Tree.jpg

Remark: Titans are not "the children of the Earth", but of the "primordial soil" of creation. Here scholars and authors confuses the mytheme of the "primordial soil" with the Earth itself because they don´t connect the story of creation to the primordial formation in our Milky Way and its giant figure on the Sky.
mand.001.atlas.jpg

Saturn, i.e. the prime god Saturnus in the Roman Pantheon, resembles the vaulting and seemingly revolving crescent white Milky Way figure on the northern sky. Saturnus. This white/light God is the real "polar configuration" but this prime figure of creation is mythically and astronomically reduced by Immanuel Velikovsky and his followers to deal with planet Saturn, causing all kinds of science fictive ideas which have no firm grounds in natural logics.

Of course anyone can pick usefull sentenses out of the ancient myths and use these in their mytho-astronomical hypothesis, but the entire text should stand the test of natural logics, which it doesn´t in the Velikovsky and TBP interpretation.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Norman » Sun Apr 23, 2017 7:49 am

SUBJECT: "THE MEETING OF MYTH AND SCIENCE"

David Talbott writes in the TBP Newslettter of April 22, 2017 this article: "The Meeting of Myth and Science" about his work:
--------------
Is it possible to summarize, in a few words, a life’s work exploring the substructure of ancient mythology and symbolism? Though it’s always a challenge, I did offer a best effort at Ben Davidson's recent Suspicious0bserver’s conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

I guess it is very difficult to summarize the numerous cultural Ancient Myths and its astronomical and cosmological implications in a few words. :-)
All of my work is about extraordinary natural events in the ancient sky. Though the events are not happening today, the human experience reverberated across thousands of years into our own time.

Yes, the assumed ancient celestial evidences have left the "scene of crime" and today we don´t observe the electric charges and discharges which supposedly should have juggled planets and their moons forth and back in the Solar System. (If this ever happened)
The emergence of civilization itself can be traced directly to the remarkable celestial dramas that shaped human consciousness, catalyzing human thought and feeding an explosion of commemorative practices. Every early culture exhibited a relentless urge to remember and to reenact events of a “first time,” when towering gods were said to have ruled the world.

Correct.
Perhaps the greatest mystery is posed by the early astronomers’ insistence that the ruling celestial powers were planets.

I don´t think "ancient astronomers" held the inferior planets to have a major powers. They must naturally have known that the Sun was the governing force and not planets. And our ancestors weren´t certainly that stupid to ascribed human like attributes and genders to the dotted planets.
It was ritualistic, magical repetition that held the collective memory in place—a memory of spectacular formations in the sky and planets in celestial combat close to Earth. In truth, the self-identification of every ancient culture depended on things actively remembered, things not to be forgotten, but with no connection to our natural experience today. All told, that is a vast mystery which must have an explanation.

The ancient world view included the Sun, the Moon and the 5 planets. It also included stars and star constellations and even the seemingly revolving white crescent figure of the Milky Way contours.

Yes, "the vast mystery must have an explanation". By reducing the ancient world view to deal with planets only, this vast mystery only can be explained by the lack of mytho-cosmological understanding - and even by the avoidance of some written texts which points to the real explanation of "this vast myth".

Just read of the Egyptian goddess Hathor who specifically is connected to the MIlky Way and as Hathor is equal to the Greek goddess Aphrodite and to the roman goddess Venus, the ancient Venus archetype cannot represent planet Venus. Goddess Venus and all the connected texts and attributes subsequently and logically belongs to the Milky Way mythology in the Roman Pantheon of creation.

This is the "vast mystery"! Some scholars and authors are fooled be the Roman Pantheon naming of the 5 ancient known planets, thus theoretically placing the planets instead of star constellations and of the imagery of the Milky Way contours. The mystery is that there is no mystery - only mytho-astronomical misconceptions. The ancient imagery of the Sky is very much the same as present - when the correct myth is connected to the correct celestial objects and motions.

The article title: "The Meeting of Myth and Science" is otherwise very interesting and I´m sure the ancient myths can be read and interpreted as real scientific informations of the creation. But this demands quite another universal perspective than in the planetary interpretation in the TBP.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby comingfrom » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:32 pm

Thank you, Norman.

I look at your language.

I don´t think "ancient astronomers" held the inferior planets to have a major powers.
The inferior planets?

Inferior to what?

And our ancestors weren´t certainly that stupid to ascribed human like attributes and genders to the dotted planets.
Modern people still believe in God, and give Him a gender.
And Earth is still looked upon as Mother Earth.

That some of the ancient myths identify some features, such as Mars' scarred face, tells us that the planets were not always just little dots.
And if they came close enough to see features, they would also have exhibited "major powers".
Like shaking the Earth, and throwing thunderbolts and hail stones at her.

The article title: "The Meeting of Myth and Science" is otherwise very interesting and I´m sure the ancient myths can be read and interpreted as real scientific informations of the creation. But this demands quite another universal perspective than in the planetary interpretation in the TBP.
Could your gods in the Milky Way have thrown some thunderbolts at the Earth, as the myths recount?

Just read of the Egyptian goddess Hathor who specifically is connected to the MIlky Way and as Hathor is equal to the Greek goddess Aphrodite and to the roman goddess Venus, the ancient Venus archetype cannot represent planet Venus. Goddess Venus and all the connected texts and attributes subsequently and logically belongs to the Milky Way mythology in the Roman Pantheon of creation.
In her terrible aspect, Venus rained terrible destruction upon the world, according to the myths.
Logically, such destruction couldn't come from the Milky Way.

~~~
At the time denoted by the myths, the planets were not known with periodicities. Their periodicities were recorded at a later time in history. Even then, they were recognized as being the gods of old.

And since the visible planets were the gods, so newly discovered planets and moons were also named after gods,
for it seemed fitting.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:58 pm

comingfrom wrote:
Modern people still believe in God, and give Him a gender.
And Earth is still looked upon as Mother Earth.
The Abrahamic god isn't thought of as a planet. Brahman, Tao and Nirvana are gender neutral and beyond gods. Earth is not a dot in the sky (from our perspective).

That some of the ancient myths identify some features, such as Mars' scarred face, tells us that the planets were not always just little dots.
Example(s) please.

In her terrible aspect, Venus rained terrible destruction upon the world, according to the myths.
Example(s) please of Venus' 'terrible aspect and raining destruction.

At the time denoted by the myths, the planets were not known with periodicities.
What time was that? What evidence do you have that the periodicities were not known?
Their periodicities were recorded at a later time in history.
Evidence please.
Even then, they were recognized as being the gods of old.
Evidence please.
And since the visible planets were the gods, so newly discovered planets and moons were also named after gods,
More planets and moons were not discovered until the mediaeval period, surely?
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