The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby seasmith » Wed May 10, 2017 12:40 pm

GC wrote:
This is another 100 years old book. The period of a couple of decades either side of the beginning of the 20th century is not a good place to get one's information. Scholarship is polluted with all sorts of theories which have long since been discredited - not least the Solar school.

Yes, and some of those turn-of-the-century popular theories are actually quite humorous to read now, given archeology's many discoveries since.

There were also the equally popular 'polar origins' theories, African Egyptian racial dogmas, Martian colonist conjectures and a host of other now long-since discarded ideas.
It's just an inherency of Myth, that any number of interpretations can be made plausible.

[No personal judgement of TBP is implied here]
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed May 10, 2017 1:20 pm

seasmith wrote:
GC wrote:
This is another 100 years old book. The period of a couple of decades either side of the beginning of the 20th century is not a good place to get one's information. Scholarship is polluted with all sorts of theories which have long since been discredited - not least the Solar school.

Yes, and some of those turn-of-the-century popular theories are actually quite humorous to read now, given archeology's many discoveries since.

There were also the equally popular 'polar origins' theories, African Egyptian racial dogmas, Martian colonist conjectures and a host of other now long-since discarded ideas.
It's just an inherency of Myth, that any number of interpretations can be made plausible.

[No personal judgement of TBP is implied here]

Yes plus the racism, cultural superiority, Pan-Hellenism and the Greeks invented or discovered everything and spread it everywhere.
I appreciate that DT was wrinting in the 70s but we have had 40-odd years of discoveries and scholarship since then. Has any of this supported a Saturn theory of any flavour?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby David Talbott » Wed May 10, 2017 3:52 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:
seasmith wrote:
GC wrote:
This is another 100 years old book. The period of a couple of decades either side of the beginning of the 20th century is not a good place to get one's information. Scholarship is polluted with all sorts of theories which have long since been discredited - not least the Solar school.

\I appreciate that DT was wrinting in the 70s but we have had 40-odd years of discoveries and scholarship since then. Has any of this supported a Saturn theory of any flavour?


Grey Cloud: When did the fact that I started my life-long research more than 40 years ago become a detriment? Also, your suggestion that more contemporary "reviews" of world mythology and symbolism have surpassed the quality of the more original and substantial work a hundred years ago is complete bunk.

This conversation is getting increasingly silly. I do not see any original research from you or any attempt to address the fundamental argument we've presented. For that you only need to show that we've named archetypes that don't exist. And if you can't do that the burden is on you to show that these archetypes would be expected under our present sky. And if you can't do that the burden is on you to show that these archetypes would NOT be predictable under the reconstruction we've offered.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby David Talbott » Wed May 10, 2017 6:03 pm

seasmith wrote:
GC wrote:

There were also the equally popular 'polar origins' theories, African Egyptian racial dogmas, Martian colonist conjectures and a host of other now long-since discarded ideas.
It's just an inherency of Myth, that any number of interpretations can be made plausible.

Yes, that's the fundamental challenge, and it poses the question we've asked from the beginning: Is a fully rational approach available to us, one that can lead to reliable conclusions? In the course of numerous presentations we've highlighted the underlying ground rules of an investigation that has worked. In considering ancient testimony, nothing counts as ground floor evidence except the points of concrete agreement between widely dispersed cultures.

The value of this explicitly stated approach is that it brings to light an underlying cross-cultural accord. Unless one can show that this accord is imaginary—or that it could have been achieved under today's sky—the inescapable first principle is that THE SKY HAS CHANGED. And in truth, every cross-cultural tradition, when followed back to its earliest contexts, affirms that very conclusion. Every culture on earth remembered a "first time," when our world was a much different place.

It is this simple and verifiable truth of the matter that raises the ancient archetypes to the highest priority in any attempt to understand the origins of ancient thought. The archetypes exist, we didn't invent them, and hundreds of archetypes have been verified beyond any reasonable doubt. Hence, a meaningful investigation of early myths and symbols must first confront the surprising reality posed by these global patterns, every one of which speaks forcefully for a changing sky.
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Cargo » Wed May 10, 2017 9:10 pm

<LOUD, STANDING, APPLAUSE!>
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu May 11, 2017 3:13 am

Cargo wrote:<LOUD, STANDING, APPLAUSE!>

Care to attempt a properly contructed sentence?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu May 11, 2017 7:35 am

David Talbott wrote:
When did the fact that I started my life-long research more than 40 years ago become a detriment?
I didn't say it had. My point was that as you were writing in the 70s you only had access to the
material which was available then.
Also, your suggestion that more contemporary "reviews" of world mythology and symbolism have surpassed the quality of the more original and substantial work a hundred years ago is complete bunk.
I didn't say that either. I said that we have had 40 more years of scholarship since then and theories have come and gone. Are you suggesting that none of the late C19th and early C20th material has been superceded by more modern scholarship and research? Cumont's Mithraic theory is one example which springs to mind. Cumont's theory was overturned by Ulansey in the late 70s(?) and Ulansey's theory itself has since been abandoned.
I notice that you ignored the question I asked in the last sentence of that post: Has any of this [post 70s scholarship] supported a Saturn theory of any flavour?

This conversation is getting increasingly silly.
That is because you are trying to steer it away from your evidence by introducing straw-men and making false accusations against me.

I do not see any original research from you or any attempt to address the fundamental argument we've presented.
I do not need to present any original research. We are looking at your sources and your evidence to see if there is anything to support your Polar Sun theory. I consider sources and evidence as fundamental to any theory.

For that you only need to show that we've named archetypes that don't exist. And if you can't do that the burden is on you to show that these archetypes would be expected under our present sky.
Another straw-man. Thus far in the PS chapter you have not mentioned archetypes; I am looking at your sources and your evidence; therefore I do not have to consider archetypes.

I am suprised you have not yet invoked 'the comparative method' and my failure to embrace it.

I have challenged your evidence and your theory, the onus is on you to defend your evidence and your theory. Show where a stationary and solitary Saturn is evidenced in your sources. Show where I have failed to mention it.

It is not difficult to see why Ninurta, or Ningirsu, though identified with the planet Saturn in the astronomical texts, came to be confused with the solar orb. “Ningirsu, coming from Eridu, rose in overwhelming splendour. In the land it became day.”144


144 Albright, “The Mouth of the Rivers,” 165-66.
'The third day of the month shown. Ningirsu, coming from Eridu, rose in overwhelming splendor. In the land it became day; the Eninnu rivaled in brilliance the child of Enzu.' Ningirsu is here the sun, offspring of the moon, Samal mar Sin, who ascends each morning from the underworld.

https://ia801601.us.archive.org/11/item ... 528616.pdf

Saturn, as Ningirsu, is “the god who changes darkness into light.”145

145 Jastrow, The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria , 57.
The temple sacred to him at Girsu was called E-ninnu, and also by a longer name that described the god as the one 'who changes darkness into light,' the reference being to the solar character of the god Nin-ib with whom Nin-girsu is identified.

https://ia800204.us.archive.org/2/items ... stuoft.pdf

The priests of Lagash invoke him as “King, Storm, whose splendour is heroic.”146

146 Hildegard Lewy, “Origin and Significance of the Mâgen Dâwîd,” 335. I was unable to find this article but I did find this:
There is no reason to assume that it was used for any purposes other than decorative. Theories interpreting it as a planetary sign of Saturn and connecting it with the holy stone in the pre-Davidic sanctuary in Jerusalem (Hildegard Lewy, in Archiv Orientální, vol. 18, 1950, 330–65) are purely speculative.
[Mâgen Dâwîd is the shield (star) of David. It is also an alchemical symbol]
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/magen-david

This unexpected quality of the planet led Jensen to designate Saturn as a symbol of the “eastern sun” or “the sun on the horizon,” though he offered no explanation for the proposed connection.147

147 Die Kosmologie der Babylonier, 115-116, 136ff. Another German language publication (from 1890).

The sunlike aspect of Saturn prevails from the earliest astronomy through medieval mysticism and astrology.“Saturn with its rays sends forth transcendent powers which penetrate into every part of the world,” wrote an Arabic astrologer of the tenth century.148

148 Klibansky, Panofsky, and Saxl, Saturn and Melancholy , 129 (-30).
The spleen occupies the same position in the body as Saturn in the world. For Saturn with its rays sends forth transcendent powers which penetrate into every part of the world. Through these, forms adhere to, and remain in, matter. Even so goes forth from the spleen the power of the black bile, which is cold and dry and it flows with the blood through the veins into every part of the body, and through it the blood coagulates and the parts adhere to one another.

https://monoskop.org/images/8/82/Raymon ... t_1979.pdf

This is alchemy related sympathetic medicine. The quote is attributed to a member of the Pure Brothers (aka Brethren of Purity) who I would guess were Sufis. In Europe this was part of Hermetic Philosophy.
This section of the above book deals with all the planets in a similar vein. Other than the book is primarily about Saturn, the section does not assign any pre-eminence to Saturn.

When the alchemists, inheritors of ancient teachings, spoke of Saturn as “the best sun,”149 it is unlikely that they themselves knew what to do with the idea. But that the tradition was passed down from remote antiquity is both indisputable and crucial.
Alchemists knew exactly what to make of Saturn as the best sun. They knew and know what 'sun' means in the context of alchemy; and they knew and know which sun it is best for what.
Brief but informative:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suns_in_alchemy

149 Schwabe, Archetyp und Tierkreis, 492
Another German language publication. Sadly not translated into English, I wouldn't mind reading this.

So another slew of sources and still nothing to indicate Saturn alone or anywhere other than where it is now.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Location: NW UK

Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby David Talbott » Thu May 11, 2017 10:47 am

Grey Cloud, the word salad you've dumped onto our Forum above goes nowhere. In seconds of due diligence you could find dozens of my articles posted from 1997 to 2004:
http://othergroup.net/thoth/

Plus: Five full-length documentaries linked from our website (http://www.thunderbolts.info); plus 28 episodes of Discourses on an Alien Sky linked from the same website.

When someone is not willing to investigate an idea, what is his value as a critic? All we're left with is an uninformed word game.

David Talbott
http://www.Thunderbolts.info
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu May 11, 2017 11:38 am

Once more you attempt to steer us away from what is at issue here, namely your sources and your evidence in the Polar Sun chapter of The Saturn Myth. I have hardly written anything of my own so how I can be accused of dumping a 'word salad' I don't know. Kettles and pots here surely? You are the one who has posted several grandiloquent, multi-paragraph posts without any attempt to address the subject of your sources or your evidence or my objections to them.

Another attempt to discredit the witness. You know damned well from our previous exchanges over the years that I am familiar with the various Saturn configs, the writings yourself and the others and have watched the documentaries.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby David Talbott » Thu May 11, 2017 1:21 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:You know damned well from our previous exchanges over the years that I am familiar with the various Saturn configs, the writings yourself and the others and have watched the documentaries.

Grey Cloud wrote: You know damned well from our previous exchanges over the years that I am familiar with the various Saturn configs, the writings yourself and the others and have watched the documentaries.


Truth is, I've seen no indication that you've given appreciable attention to ANY of the material, since the issues you raise have no grounding in fact, and our presentations are filled with easily verified facts. To prove otherwise, or to show that you possess knowledge of the archetypal themes that we've cited by the hundreds, I'd have been satisfied if you would have simply offered a believable fact-based explanation for just a handful of archetypes, and you could have chosen which ones.

Or conversely, you could have listed a few the archetypes we've cited and shown that they are inaccurately stated in our published material. Or, that they would not be expected in the light of the reconstruction. Anyone can check out the Saturn Myth chapter on the Polar Sun; anyone can check out our available documentaries and numerous articles subsequently published in the THOTH newsletter; and anyone can follow the facts presented in the ongoing Discourses. The vast majority of readers and video viewers are genuinely interested. Why would I give preference to one who shows no interest and simply wants to throw up more words leading nowhere? This exchange has now arrived at the definition of "wasting someone else's time."
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Re: The Mythical Interpretations in the TBP

Unread postby Cargo » Thu May 11, 2017 10:01 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:
Cargo wrote:<LOUD, STANDING, APPLAUSE!>

Care to attempt a properly constructed sentence?


I find the use of 'word salad' to be so appropriate that it begs to be enshrined in the Halls of Science.

<EXIT STAGE LEFT>
<VERY LOUD STANDING APPLAUSE! To: Mr.Talbott who does not get enough of them in person!>
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