Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:45 pm

I was moving yesterday, so I haven't been able to get back to this discussion till now. I have a lot of material to review here and on the Etherpad where I posted a lot of things about the Great Flood and about the Ice Age.

Gordon, are you open to the possibility, as Mike Fischer concludes, that mountain uplift and the Ice Age did not occur till a few hundred years after the Great Flood? The deaths of Arctic animals by sudden freezing, due to continental drift moving two continents near to the north pole, and causing mountain uplift at the same time, seems to require that the Flood, which deposited nearly all of the fossil-bearing strata, occurred enough time earlier for the animals to have repopulated the Arctic region while it was still warm. I know you say Noah was said to have witnessed mountain uplift, but could that have been minor hills, or conflation of stories?

Grey Cloud, I think you say cataclysms involved Venus, Mars, Jupiter and the Sun. How do you see them involved in the cataclysms? What are the main statements of myths that support your view?

Mo, what sources do you follow? Do you follow Cook's SaturnianCosmology.org material?
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby LunarSabbathTruth » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:28 pm

webolife wrote:....
2. Early comet collision theories [eg. Velikovsky] attempted to explain the sudden onset of glaciation and were built upon the unfounded assumption that comets were icy bodies... this is simply an unnecessary belief given so many other factors which could have temporarily altered the earth's stability resulting in an ice-age related cataclysm. .....


I don't think Velikovsky believed the "icy comet" assumptions or associated glaciation with them. As I understand it, he would have seen the freezing of the Mammoths being caused by a sudden disturbance in the Earth's atmosphere and axial tilt due to the presence of a passing astronomical body. This would have been around 3500 years ago, at the time of the Exodus and/or Joshua's Long Day.

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Thu Dec 17, 2015 11:22 am

LST
It's been a while since I read Velikovsky, so you may be right -- I may be remembering someone else's take on V's comet hypothesis.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:15 pm

Velikovsky theorized that the near collision with Venus caused impacts and major volcanic activity on Earth, which heated the oceans, causing extreme evaporation, which produced extreme snowfall, which became the Ice Age. He figured the axis shifted too.

Saturn Theory
Do you all disagree with any of the following from http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1998.14.txt?

Actually, even in Greek literature it is virtually impossible to separate the epic heroes from the domain of the gods. In the Iliad, the gods Zeus, Apollo, Ares, Athena, Hera, Aphrodite, and Poseidon are very much a part of the key episodes, conversing with heroes, standing beside them, falling in love with them, consorting with them. More than once, the gods themselves take part in the fighting, as when Apollo delivers the first blow to Patroclus, before the hero is struck by Euphorbus and then Hector. It was Apollo who guided the arrow that struck the "heel" of Achilles.

Agamemnon is likened to Zeus in his upper part and Ares in his lower limbs. (Those familiar with the Saturn model will have no difficulty discerning the concrete origins of the idea.) Numerous ancestors or relatives -Tantalus, Niobe, Pelops, Atreus and Thyestes, among others - were closer in character to gods than to men. Helen was the daughter of Zeus. Her mother Leda was also the mother of the "heavenly twins", Castor and Pollux. (Indeed, more than one scholar has recognized Helen as a local transcript of Aphrodite, astronomically identified with Venus). It was said that the walls of Troy were built by Apollo and Poseidon. Cassandra, foretelling the destruction of Troy, is strangely reminiscent of the ancient lamenting goddess, roaming about with wildly disheveled hair and disturbing the land. In truth, there is not a shred of historical evidence that such personalities originated as flesh and blood figures.

It is not my purpose here to merely suggest that there are archetypal themes and connections yet to be discerned by historians. Our claim must be much more explicit. There is an archetypal Universal Monarch or king of the world, an archetypal mother goddess, and an archetypal warrior hero. ALL OF THE RECURRING THEMES AROUND THESE ARCHETYPES AROSE IN RESPONSE TO SPECTACULAR FORMS IN THE SKY. THESE FORMS ARE NO LONGER PRESENT.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Thu Dec 17, 2015 4:04 pm

Lloyd wrote:ALL OF THE RECURRING THEMES AROUND THESE ARCHETYPES AROSE IN RESPONSE TO SPECTACULAR FORMS IN THE SKY. THESE FORMS ARE NO LONGER PRESENT.


Well, I'd say "most" rather than all, and "unusual" versus spectacular.
The remainder of the statements are written by historians based on minimal documentation, a far cry from first hand observation, so I can't really say I agree or disagree with any of the claims. Frankly I'm as interested as the next guy in mythology in relation to physical or historical data; there is wisdom to be gained from the reasons and principles behind a story even if it is incorrect or misguided. But so many of the Saturn claims have been made based on biased interpretations of obscure and disconnected passages from antiquity, with no way to actually verify the original documents or authors' intentions; and then these claims are offered as facts to support a proposition for which there is little present evidence to confirm.

I've spent 4 decades studying claims for and against the biblical record in relation to its statements concerning earth history, and I can tell you the debate gets down to paradigms... with the current state of exploding information and the internet, a person can find/choose any facts they want to support a claim and sound pretty persuasive doing it, but if you examine the underlying paradigm, you discover the story behind the story, and then wisdom begins.

We agree on the catastrophic paradigm I'd say, but there are myriad choices of timeline, storyline, and mechanism from which to tie together the relevant factual information. I have to continually check myself and others with the questions:
"What am I trying to prove?"
and...
"What am I trying to understand?"
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:13 pm

Lloyd, regarding the Saturn Theory quote:
As I wrote before, there would have been numerous planetary encounters which would have given rise to stories about Gods interacting and then having constellations named after these interactions. I find that this has nothing to do with any Saturn System of planets, and one has to go way back to the Venus figurines to bet a hint of a previous planetary configuration.

And so the archetypal mother goddess, the warrior hero and such arose out of Velikovsky-type planetary interactions. Saturn could well have been involved but this has nothing to do with a previous configuration of planets.

And I follow nobody, especially not Jno Cook, although it has been years since I read anything by him.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:33 am

Grey Cloud, I think you say cataclysms involved Venus, Mars, Jupiter and the Sun. How do you see them involved in the cataclysms? What are the main statements of myths that support your view?


As I stated in an earlier post, a) it is very difficult and often impossible to put anything like a date to a particular mythological story and b) these days I tend to concentrate on the LBA collapse and Homer's Iliad and the Dionysiaca of Nonnus.

My reasoning:
The LBA collapse is dated by scholars to c. 1200-1150BCE and was followed by a 'dark age' lasting anything up to
400 years depending on which expert you listen to. The ancient and modern date for the Trojan War fits into the
1200-1150 time-frame, and Homer himself is dated to the 8th century (or 700-800BCE).
Nonnus of Panopolis is much later, circa late 4th to early 5th century CE. Because of this lateness he is not highly regarded by modern scholars. However, I use him because the first two books of the Dionysiaca are devoted
to the story of Typhon which among other things features a man named Cadmus. Cadmus is credited, by the ancient
Greeks, with re-introducing writing to Greece. Knowledge of writing had been lost during the catastrophe and ensuing 'dark age'. Cadmus gave the Greeks a Semitic script hence the similarities between the Greek and Hebrew alphabets, e.g. aleph/alpha, beth/beta, etc. This then puts the Typhon story into the same time-frame as the Trojan War. Typhon features in Greek mythology long before Nonnus and Nonnus also weaves into this story a story generally know as 'Europa and the Bull'.

The Iliad.
There is a lot going on in this book and it is very difficult to separate the different threads and keep them separate. The gods feature in at least three different ways: a) as (intelligent) cosmic forces working at a
universal level, b) as (intelligent) cosmic forces whose activities impact upon humans and c) as the divine aspects
of humans (for want of a better phrase). The first two are what concern us here. The simplistic god = planet
equation will not cut it.

Also as stated previously, I am not so much interested in what happened in the sky as to what humans did on the
ground as a result.

As to 'statements of myth' which support my view, there are many scattered across the world's mythologies. However, it is not sufficient to just parse ancient texts and extract a snippet here and a snippet there and then cobble together a theory. One has to consider each reference in its own context - does this incident happen before this one? Is this Greek story relating the same thing as this Mayan story? And so on.

I can expand on any of this if anyone is interested but I'll leave it there for now.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:07 am

A few comments on the Jno Cook quote.

The whole Achilles story line in the Iliad is about Alchemy, or if you prefer, Yoga.
In Greek myth various body parts have symbolic meaning. What the heel represents I do not know but it pops up in two or three stories.

Agamemnon is likened to Zeus in his upper part and Ares in his lower limbs. (Those familiar with the Saturn model will have no difficulty discerning the concrete origins of the idea.)
Agamemnon had a large chest, narrow hips and long legs. Plus hair and beard like Zeus.

(Indeed, more than one scholar has recognized Helen as a local transcript of Aphrodite, astronomically identified with Venus)
I'd like to know who these scholars are. Helene = Selene - the Moon.

It was said that the walls of Troy were built by Apollo and Poseidon.
The walls were built by Poseidon but Apollo tended the flocks or herds. This information relates to an interesting though perplexing story in the Iliad involving a conversation between Zeus and Poseidon. In the dialogue, sea flooding, river flooding (7 or 9 rivers are mentioned), the later caused by torrential rain. This will result in the eradication of the embankment and palisade built by the Greeks to the extent that future generations will not realise that it once stood on that spot.

There is an archetypal Universal Monarch or king of the world, an archetypal mother goddess, and an archetypal warrior hero.
Correct(-ish) but it should be ladies first:
Mother-goddess = the Universe = Chaos (unordered not disordered) = zero = negative = darkness = silence = stillness.
Creator-god = the Universe working according to the Logos = Cosmos (order) = one = positive = light = sound (harmony) = movement (vibration).
Warrior = Man. The Hero's journey is the path of Alchemy or Yoga to enlightenment/illumination. This is what Gilgamesh is doing in the eponymous epic; Achilles is doing in the Iliad; and in more detail, Odysseus in the Odyssey to name but a few.

ALL OF THE RECURRING THEMES AROUND THESE ARCHETYPES AROSE IN RESPONSE TO SPECTACULAR FORMS IN THE SKY. THESE FORMS ARE NO LONGER PRESENT.
This statement is nonsense caps or no caps.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:12 am

LunarSabbathTruth,

This would have been around 3500 years ago, at the time of the Exodus and/or Joshua's Long Day.
I disagree with your dating here. Joshua is early Iron Age is he not? Certainly after c. 1500 and probably after 1200.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
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The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:20 am

Webolife,
We agree on the catastrophic paradigm I'd say, but there are myriad choices of timeline, storyline, and mechanism from which to tie together the relevant factual information. I have to continually check myself and others with the questions:
"What am I trying to prove?"
and...
"What am I trying to understand?"
I agreed with all of your post but thought this summed up things very well.

Don't know if you've seen this or are interested:
UCSD Exodus Conference
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLz_l3D ... TT-uPs7VNO
This is scholars talking to scholars not pap for the masses. I'm still wading through them.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
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The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:26 am

Moses,
As I wrote before, there would have been numerous planetary encounters which would have given rise to stories about Gods interacting and then having constellations named after these interactions. I find that this has nothing to do with any Saturn System of planets, and one has to go way back to the Venus figurines to bet a hint of a previous planetary configuration.
Agreed, with the caveat that the Venus figurines are nothing to do with Venus. The term is generic and covers a whole host of styles and shapes, many of which are nothing like the Willensdorf Venus with the exaggerated hips and bust.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
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The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:45 am

Grey Cloud wrote: What the heel represents I do not know but it pops up in two or three stories.


GC,
Have you come across this little tale from Sumer, which pre-dated Troy by a millennium or so ?

The Sumerian poem Ninurta and the Turtle (ETCSL 1.6.3) describes how Enki [Kronos /Saturn] created a turtle from the clay of the abzu to help him recover the stolen tablet of destinies, which controls humanity's future. The tablet was stolen by an evil bird-like demon named Anzu, but the hero Ninurta [son of Enlil /Mars] won it back. Ninurta, however, decided to keep it for himself rather than return it to Enki. Yet the ever-cunning Enki thwarted Ninurta's ambitions by creating a turtle that grabbed Ninurta by the heel, dug a pit with its claws and dragged the overambitious hero into it.


If one has ever seen livestock being "hamstrung", it is immediate and disabling.
For man, likely a metaphor for moral weakness, hubris, etc. in a part him (near the sole) that did not receive the childhood benefit of the sanctifying and edifying 'holy waters' of the Abzu, (where also dwelt Enki and the earliest Seven Sages).
I think a Turtle is often the post-diluvian emergent 'world mound' ?
Just one interpretation...

http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/et ... t=t.1.6.3#

http://oracc.museum.upenn.edu/amgg/listofdeities/enki/


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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:57 pm

"The simplistic god = planet equation will not cut it."
Simplistic?
I guess I'm unqualified to discuss then.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:52 pm

Lloyd,
If it is god = planet full stop/period, then how come there are 12 Olympians but only 7 planets? This numerical discrepancy applies to other pantheons too.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:30 pm

Hi Seasmith,
Interesting little story, though I'm not buying the Enki = Saturn equation. The Tablets I would equate with the Logos; the Anzu bird with Tiamat of the Babylonians (Heb. Tehom); Ninurta would appear to be something to do with Man and his being in the material universe. I'll go with the Turtle and mound and perhaps with the ankle part though I see the ankle as being something to do with Earth or earthly part of man, it being next to the part which touches the ground. As you probably know the turtle features in Indian mythology also, not to mention Terry Pratchett's Discworld (where the gods live in a place called Dunmanifestin).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld_gods Very clever guy Pratchett ;)

BTW thanks for the two links. Most useful as I've lost a lot of mine through various digital disasters and computer catastrophes.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
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