Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:56 am

Well Grey Cloud, I write on the Grahah Hancock forum quite regularly but mostly in the Inner Space section. Graham is very close to the truth, it is just this view that a comet caused the Younger Dryas event that irks me. What are the odds that it was an asteroid. But the comet story is definitely a Venus story yet Graham won't go there.

The desire to have Earth in it's present orbit in the past has a huge influence on our thinking. People cannot reach into the idea of the Earth wandering around whereever. But it is a wonder that it stays in it's present orbit. That is the mathematics of it. This push to have cataclysm without Velikovsky worries me. Nevertheless Graham puts a compelling case.

Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:16 am

Lloyd,

Lloyd wrote:GC: The biblical flood story is a straight lift of the Sumerian story from the Epic of Gilgamesh. Mount Ararat was not called Ararat in ancient times. Wasn't the OT Ark of equal length and width? In the Phoenician version, they, a sea-faring people, take the vessel out for sea trials before the flood and its dimensions are more realistic.
LK: No, I'm pretty sure the ark was said to be much longer than wide.

You are correct. Don't know where I got that idea.

Lloyd wrote:GC: Virgin. This is a complicated or complex subject. It can refer to the constellation Virgo and also the universe or the soul for example. E.g. the virgin mother-goddess (the universe) gives birth but remains in her original condition - think closed system.
LK: As I recall, you generally assumed that philosophy came before myth-making, whereas I think the reverse is more likely. Maybe I'll present evidence eventually.

True about the philosophy but myth is a methodology rather than a genre. Myth is just information presented in story form. The information can be philosophical, historical or astronomical for example. Anyone can remember a story, they do not have to know or understand the embedded information. The information/knowledge gets preserved regardless.

Lloyd wrote:GC: CATASTROPHISM WEAKEST POINTS. On the science side there is a necessity to accept some mainstream science whilst at the same time rejecting some. On the ancient textual side there is the infuriating lack of dates, the sheer volume and diversity of the sources and the dubious translations. I agree with Webolife that catastrophism is a paradigm rather than a theory. It makes me laugh when people call me a 'climate skeptic'. If they knew my views on catastrophe/ism they would have sleepless nights.
LK: What are your views on Catastrophism? Or don't you want anyone to be sleepless?

The sleepless bit referred to the AGW sheeple not those on this forum.
My views? Multiple catastrophes with the last major one approx 12,000 years ago. The last of the lesser approx 1200BCE. I'm more interested in the human side of things rather than the Earth/science side.

Lloyd wrote:LK: I think the Bronze Age might be post Flood and post Shock Dynamics. What years are you saying?

If there was a 'global' flood then it would have been 12000 ya. It can't have been either the MBA or LBA collapses as there were still several peoples, eg, Egyptians, Indians etc who didn't completely collapse.

Lloyd wrote:GC: With regard to the OT, are you familiar with this guy? https://www.custance.org/

Either Custance is correct about the Hebrew grammar or he isn't. I've read some of the criticisms of him and they seem to consist of straw man and ad hom attacks. Not seen one which challenges his Hebrew grammar. Custance lays out his case in the intro or first chapter.

Lloyd wrote:GC: Never yet come across an ancient text referring to Saturn as the first sun. In fact I rarely come across mentions of Saturn at all. The main actors appear to be Venus, Mars, Jupiter and the Sun (this one).
- El is the Phoenician(?) word for Lord.
LK: The Sun in the various languages initially referred to Saturn. That applies to Sol, Helios, Ra and others. And I just read today that "Cronos [or Kronos - the Greek name of Saturn] is called El by the Phoenicians." [W.A.Heidel, The Day of Yahweh, p470]. I read that in Cardona's book, God Star. And the book shows that Saturn was the main god of the ancients.

Here we have a difference of methodology. I based my statement on the ancient texts I have read, you base yours on a modern book quoting another modern book.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:37 am

moses wrote:Well Grey Cloud, I write on the Grahah Hancock forum quite regularly but mostly in the Inner Space section. Graham is very close to the truth, it is just this view that a comet caused the Younger Dryas event that irks me. What are the odds that it was an asteroid. But the comet story is definitely a Venus story yet Graham won't go there.

The desire to have Earth in it's present orbit in the past has a huge influence on our thinking. People cannot reach into the idea of the Earth wandering around whereever. But it is a wonder that it stays in it's present orbit. That is the mathematics of it. This push to have cataclysm without Velikovsky worries me. Nevertheless Graham puts a compelling case.

Cheers,
Mo


Hancock's theory is a revamp of Clube and Napier's. Does it really matter whether it was a comet or an asteroid? They are just labels to me.
(As I see it) Venus and Mars were definitely involved in the LBA collapse as were Jupiter and the Sun. Homer makes this clear. Whether Venus was involved in any of the previous incidents is hard to say partly because it is difficult to know in which time period a story takes place.
I don't understand why you are upset about Velikovsky not getting credit. He didn't invent catastrophism or even modern catastrophism
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:44 pm

This any use to anyone?

Nanodiamond-Rich Layer across Three Continents Consistent with Major Cosmic Impact at 12,800 Cal BP
http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/677046
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:02 pm

Lots of comments and questions to reply to here, not sure where to start...

I've studied Old Earth creationism at some length and don't mind commenting on it if there are some questions.
For starters, OEC accepts the big bang, radiometric dating, the flood as a local [mid east] event; and among other things regarding Adam, argues that all hominids [incl. Neanderthals] except Homo sapiens sapiens were not human. They present several theories for interpretation of Genesis, including days=ages, gaps [eg. between Gen.1:1 and 1:2], and progressive creation to fit in the geologic column, which is generally accepted as presented in standard geology. It is not a Catastrophism compatible viewpoint.

As far as the biblical record goes, the KJV is not great, but contains well documented passages, and is suitable for supplying a reasonable framework for catastrophic earth history. I refer to a concordance in the original languages and read the plain rendering of Genesis chaps. 1 - 4 to indicate several key things about the early [pre-flood] earth:
1. Low topography -- the main rivers proceeded from a single stream and separated, like a delta, as a opposed to merging tributaries in a watershed; Psalm 104 [lit: "the mountains they go up, the valleys they go down"] also adds that the boundary mountain ranges went up after the flood, making a barrier against a future catastrophic flood.
2. Single land mass is implied by the reference to a single ocean.
3. Warm climate worldwide -- no seasonal weather until after the flood, primordial seasons based on astronomy
4. No matar, and no rain -- the initiating factors of the flood were not in effect, suggesting a greenhouse climate.
5. Humans and all animals were contemporary.
6. Several factors [eg. atmospheric] contributed to longevity of lifespans for all organisms, incl people.

The sending of the matar initiated the flood event.
For the mountains to have risen, as they were witnessed to have done at the end of the flood [second half of the flood year], what we understand as continental drift must have occurred during the first half. Running the tape backwards, so to speak, the "fountains of the deep" [now mid-ocean rifts] would have been faults originally through the middle of the one-land mass. So the fountains indicate the beginning of the crustal displacement and seafloor spreading which cascaded into all of the other factors of the flood, ending in the boundary mountains and subsequent formation of volcanic chains and island arcs.

Therefore, in catastrophic flood geology the sedimentary strata belong to the flood era, not before [except the variously metamorphosed Pre-Cambrian groupings], and only some following. These later deposits would have been in conjunction with the melt-back of the glaciers and rising sea levels in the few centuries following the flood. There is no macro-evolution in this picture, and all the fossils are a result of the flooding, as their sedimentary resting places affirm.

So the SD events [if accepted] must have been in conjunction with the early flood era, not an event of centuries later.

I don't really care if the matar resulted from the earth's passage through the asteroid belt, or if the asteroid belt resulted from some interplanetary event that coincided with the bombardment of earth, or if it was Venus, Mars or some other large planetoid that interacted with the Earth. The least exotic view seems to be a single body passing by and interacting for a time [a la Velikovsky] with the earth. I think the evidence is sparse for most versions of what caused the bombardment, so I base my timelines on the evidence left behind. There are major astroblemes associated with every major sedimentary stratum [what the standard modelers think of as epochs], so I take it also as a plain reading of the biblical record that the start and stop of the matar bookend the first 150 days of the flood event, and this further supports that the "geologic column" resides in that time frame.

Post-flood results:
1. Mountainous topography, resulting from the drift event of the flood
2. Separated continents
3. Seasonal weather, from the "new" tilt of the earth, multiple climates world-wide, and a global wind system that was not in effect during the early greenhouse -- also a gradual global warming trend following the glaciation
4. Rain as a regular event
5. Humans and animals preserved and speciated from the few survivors of the flood event [another thread topic]
6. Decreasing longevity over the centuries
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:40 pm

Grey Cloud,
not a comet or an asteroid but a thunderbolt from a close planet. Actually it does not matter much to me which it was. The point about it being a comet is that there are all sorts of ancient references to comets and they are not being attributed to Venus.

I don't care about Velikovsky, now days it is just a name that means random orbits for planets. He may not have invented this idea but he is the main man now.

Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:38 pm

I favor the idea that planetary orbits are stable and geometrically orderly, and that space is naturally "crystalline".
I don't find plausible that the current orbits were achieved by any kind of chaotic process [or acquisition of Saturn, which has a very stable nearly circular orbit as does Earth]. I do find plausible the idea that an intruding body temporarily upset that order or caused damage to the original design. I don't think Bode's rule is a coincidence, nor that the arrangement of planets in our solar system is insignificant to the survival of life on Earth.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Mon Dec 14, 2015 3:37 am

Webo,
we have found hundreds of other planets going around stars and nothing orderly applies. It has become clear that the Solar System formed in a chaotic manner, divinity steering this not withstanding.

If you can see something upsetting the orbits of the planets, surely you cannot think that they went back to where they were before the disturbance. Of course this would depend upon the power of the disturbance.

Bode's law tells us that there is an electrical interaction between the planets that stabilises the orbits.

One wonders if Earth is very special especially when we find these other star systems with planets unlikely to produce life. Of course this depends on the distance of such a star from Earth. If light bends towards the Sun then those stars could be thousands of time closer to the Earth. But I am into divinity having an influence on the production of our planet. Just see things in the bible different to you.

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:08 am

We may be not as divergent on this matter as you think, Mo...

The realization of unsuitability of other stellar planetary systems for life strikes me as a statement for the orderly design of our own solar system, in addition to the unique conditions here on Earth. I believe the earth was upset by the "intruder", and left with a precessing pole to show for it. Have you ever played with a gyroscope? Try wobbling it when it's at full speed -- it rather quickly resumes a stable rotation; however, if the rotation is slowed a bit as a result of the disturbance, it will begin to precess. I think it is quite possible [although unnecessary to my storyline] that Earth had an even less eccentric orbit than it has today, an ellipse with about a 3 million km semi-major axis variance, and this present condition may be due to the same pole rocking disturbance. Bode's rule tells us nothing of an electrical connection, simply that the planets are patterned in their distance from the sun. The exact relation is even more striking if the semi-major axis is applied rather than average distance. The electrical or electri-gravitic connection is a matter of paradigm, which I believe we also share. On your objection to the intruder being a "comet" I believe there are several relevant considerations:
1. What is a comet anyway? Increasing data shows it is just an ordinary planetoid experiencing electrical stress.
2. Early comet collision theories [eg. Velikovsky] attempted to explain the sudden onset of glaciation and were built upon the unfounded assumption that comets were icy bodies... this is simply an unnecessary belief given so many other factors which could have temporarily altered the earth's stability resulting in an ice-age related cataclysm.
3. Who can say how large the planetoid was? It need not be Mars or Venus-sized to affect the earth significantly. I understand that recent tsunami-producing earthquakes in Indonesia and Japan knocked Earth's axis off a few cms.
4. Perhaps Cruithne or some other earth-resonant planetoid or asteroid cluster had a close encounter with us. Future discovery, exploration or observations of the earth-resonant asteroids might even show that they were derived from a single larger body, perhaps remnants of the "intruder" we're conjecturing about.

There are other conjectures you make which I don't share, but I suspect we're closer than you imagine.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Dec 14, 2015 2:33 pm

The Sun in Ancient Myths Was Saturn
Velikovsky seems to have been not so good at figuring out ancient myths, though he figured out the Saturn myth somewhat, but Cardona and Talbott seem to be much better. Here's some of the evidence that myths about the Sun etc were usually about Saturn etc, which comes from Cardona's book, God Star. There's quite a bit more material for me to go through in the book, but this is a good start.

The Disturbing Body
First I just want to comment that Webb and GC may be right, that the solar system may be fairly stable, but you guys seem to acknowledge that an intruding body seems to have caused cataclysms a few thousand years ago. The Saturn Theory could still be true. The Earth, Mars and Venus may have been in stable alignment behind Saturn as it entered the solar system and Saturn, on a highly elliptical orbit, may have gotten as close as Earth's orbit, where the 3 planets separated from Saturn, while Saturn then went back out past the orbit of Jupiter and then stabilized there. That would remove the problem of having Earth go from Jupiter's orbit to the present orbit through very cold space. This assumes that Saturn would have been able to provide Earth with enough heat and light when Earth was still in the Saturn system.

Sun = Saturn
-p.67 Farnell said: *"What is normal in nature and society rarely excites the myth-making imagination, which is more likely to be kindled by the abnormal, some startling catastrophe, some terrible violation of the social code."* [209 L.R. Farnell, "The Value and Methods of Mythological Study," Proceedings of the British Academy XX, p.47].
-p.54 Aristotle said <"ancient thinkers"> said the <"heavenly bodies are gods">. [155 Aristotle, Metaphysics, 12:8:19].
-p.63 In the language of Sumer, "as in that of the Egyptians, the word ... for 'god' and 'star' was one and the same - * - ... the very picture of a star." [199 Langdon, Semitic Mythology, p93].
-p.24-5 But "an in-depth study" shows that "except for the fact that Ra shone brightly in the sky, the characteristics, and even motions, attributed to Ra do not fit the role of the Sun."
-"Ra was often lauded as <"Lord of the Circles"> and as <"he who entereth [or liveth in] the Circle."> [77 Budge, The Gods of the Egyptians, V2p339].
-He was described as <"the sender forth of light into his Circle"> and as the <"Governor of [his] circle."> [78 same, p339-40].
-"A hymn to Ra states: <"Thou hast made heaven and earth bright with thy rays of pure emerald light."> [79 Idem, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, p250].
-"Sebek-Tum-Ra, this sun was the" <"radiant green disk"> [81 Mackenzie, Egyptian Myths and Legends, p236-7] and was lauded <"Hail Green One"> [82 Budge, Osiris & the Egyptian Resurrection, p.355].
-p.26 David Talbott said regarding morning and evening *"the texts always reverse the directions expected by the solar interpretation."* [86 Talbott, The Ship of Heaven, Aeon I:3, p86].
-*"When sailing in his ship, or boat, Ra is said to move down at dawn"* [87 Pyramid Texts, Spell 1133] *"and upstream at night"*. [88 Coffin Texts, Spell 136].
-p.120-1 "Diodorus Siculus, sometime in the first century BC" said: <"But above all in importance, they [the Chaldeans] say, is the study of the influence of the five stars known as planets...the one named Cronus [the same as Kronos, i.e. Saturn] by the Greeks...is the most conspicuous"> [1 Diodorus Siculus, Bibliotheca Historica, II:30-34].
-"To the Greeks of Diodorus' time, Helios was the Sun."
-"Why would the Babylonians have referred to the planet Saturn as the star of the Sun?"
-"[RC] Thompson translated [another Babylonian name for Saturn] as <"[the planet] Saturn is the star of the sun"> . [10 RC Thompson, The Reports of the Magicians and Astrologers of Nineveh and Babylon, Vol.II, plxiii].
-p.121-2 "Eratosthenes of Alexandria, [before 200BC] ... [who had measured] Earth's circumference, identified the planet Saturn as the star of the Sun, as so did several other Greek writers." [11 A. Bouche-Leclercq, L'Astrologie Grecque, p93].
-"Down to the 6th century AD" neo-Platonist "Simplicius ... called Saturn the star of the Sun." [12 same].
-"The [Roman] Latin writer Gaius Iulius Hyginus ... referred to [Saturn] as the star of Sol ... the Latin word for 'Sun'". [13 Hyginus, De Astronomia, II:42:6-10].
-p.122-3 The Babylonian astronomers used a common phrase <"When Shamash stands in the halo of Sin">.
-Shamash is normally translated Sun and Sin, Moon, but Morris Jastrow concluded: *"Since this phenomenon can only occur at night, [Shamash] cannot of course be the sun."*.
-The earlier phrase that "Thompson translated as 'Saturn is the star of the sun,' Jastrow ... [said] a more accurate translation would be" <"Saturn is the sun-star">. [22 M. Jastrow Jr, "Sun and Saturn", p163-4].
-"Another translation given by Jastrow is" <"the planet Saturn is Shamash"> [the Sun]. [24 same, p163].
-So the phrase <"When Shamash stands in the halo of Sin"> [25 same] means "When Saturn stands in the halo of Sin".
-"As I will indicate in a future work, Sin did not always stand for the Moon." [28 Idem, "Shamash and Sin," Chronology and Catastrophism Workshop 1992:2, p16-7].
-p.125 "Shamash means 'to be brilliant'" which suggests "that Saturn was once believed to have been as brilliant as the Sun".
-"The Sumerian planetary god Ninurta also shared this dual characteristic" meaning both Sun and Saturn.
-"The epithets [for Ninurta, Saturn] should ... read" <"the most furious[?] light"> and <"King, Light whose brilliance surpassed (all other gods).">
-p.127-30 "Nimrod has also and often been claimed to be an alias for Ninurta." [49 H. Lewy, "Origin and Significance of the Magen Dawid," Archiv Orientalni, 18:3, p337-8].
-"The cuneiform characters which spell nin, ur, ta can also be read nim, ru, ud" [Nimrod].
-Nimrod and "all of the [other] Saturnian deities were revered as" ... <"the very first king"> and <"the first of the gods"> [55 G. Rawlinson, The Seven Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World, Vol. I, p87], apparently *"the very first god ancient man had recognized"*.
-"The cuneiform sign for 'god', 'planet', ... 'king'" and "the Saturnian deity", An or Anu, were all the same sign, an 8 pointed star or asterisk.
-Ninib/Ninip was called <"the light of heaven and earth"> and explicitly as <"he who, like the sun, the light of the gods, irradiates the nations">. [59 G. Rawlinson, same].
-"George Rawlinson himself found these epithets *"very difficult to reconcile with the notion that, as a celestial luminary, [Ninip] was Saturn"*.
-Jastrow concluded that Ningirsu was also the planet Saturn. [80 M. Jastrow, same, p173].
-It was said of Ningirsu, <"he changes darkness into light">.
-p.137-40 The ancients could not have believed that Saturn, as they saw it, was a Sun in their time, but they apparently believed that it once was a Sun, since they continued to refer to it as a Sun or like the Sun for many centuries.
-p.139 "As Hodder estropp and Staniland Wake had concluded long before Jastrow on studying ancient symbolism, as far as the ancients were concerned, Saturn was the first irradiator of light." [128 H. Westropp & CS Wake, Ancient Symbol Worship, p64].
-"As far as [Boll] was concerned, the Greek Helios and the Latin Sol were originally the names of the planet Saturn. [129 F. Boll, "Kronos-Helios," Archiv fur Religionwissenschaft, XIX, p344].
-p.143 "The Egyptian god Atum ... was honored as a sun of night." [1 EAW Budge, Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, Vol.1, p65 & 104].
-p.204 Aurelias Augustinus said <"the ancients considered the planet Saturn as the god of the Jews."> [23 Index to E.Hoffman's edition of Augustine's De Civitate Dei].
-"Throughout the Middle Ages, the Jews were largely known as the People of Saturn" [24 H.Lewy, "Origin and Significance of the Magen Daeid," Archiv Orientalni 18, pt.3, p370], "(as so, incidentally, were the Scythians [25 I.Velikovsky, "On Saturn and the Flood," KRONOS V:1 (Fall 1979), p10]).
-"Even the Roman historian Tacitus (c. A.D. 55-117) described the Jews as worshipping the planet Saturn as their god." [26 Tacitus, The Histories, V:iv].
-p.217 "In his evaluation of the Greek Helios and other so-called ancient sun-gods, E.A.Butterworth also came to the conclusion that this luminary" *"is not the natural sun of heaven, for it neither rises nor sets, but is, as it seems, ever at the zenith...."* [129 D.N.Talbott, The Saturn Myth, p49].
-p.227 "The circumpolar stars were alluded to as Kokkabe 'El (the stars of El). [59 W.F.Albright, Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan, p141].
-"The throne of El was considered to be" *"the pole of the universe"*. [60 A.J.Wensinck, "The Ideas of the Western Semites Concerning the Navel of the Earth", Afdeeling Letterkunde XIX:2,p55].
-Thus, "El could only have resided in the north celestial pole."
-*"The religions of all ancient nations ... with a marvelous unanimity ... associate the abode of the supreme God with the North Pole, 'the centre of heaven', or with the celestial space immediately surrounding it."* [62 W.F.Warren, Paradise Found, p50-1].
-p.225 "The god An and/or Anu was a personification of the planet Saturn."
-*"Cronos [or Kronos - the Greek name of Saturn] is called El by the Phoenicians."* [38 W.A.Heidel, The Day of Yahweh, p470].
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Mon Dec 14, 2015 4:23 pm

Lloyd,
except for the 'pole' quotes the rest could be explained by the double layer around Saturn being lit up electrically in a green colour. This would be the circle with the planet Saturn residing within it. Then stories about the pole in the same general era do not suggest a Saturn System to me. Any saturn System would be way back in time from this.

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Mo
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:10 pm

Webo,
I'm all for our Solar System being designed for life on Earth. I just see how this happened very differently to you. I think that the more interactions that occurred the easier it would be for divinity to design it.

I'm sure that the Earth was left with a precessing pole due to interactions. Probably lots of interactions.

Without the electrical interactions between the planets in orbits about where they are now, there would not be a Bode's law. The patterning occurs due to the electrical interaction.

Comets are all about Venus. Believe it. Venus is a comet now but it's tail is not visible. Is it so hard to see it being visible in ancient times, and the sight would have been a doozy. It is just that simple.

Ok, there are important things that we agree on. Generally people argue in an addictive manner. Ego and conditioning reign supreme. I do feel passionately about some things, and we disagree on some of those things. I just have to make sure I don't swear!

Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:08 am

Hi Lloyd,

Re Sun=Saturn. We are back to methodology again. You have presented a dog's dinner of sound-bites from all sorts of secondary and tertiary sources. I'm not going to do a blow-by-blow response but here are some observations.

"What is normal in nature and society rarely excites the myth-making imagination, which is more likely to be kindled by the abnormal, some startling catastrophe, some terrible violation of the social code."* [209 L.R. Farnell, "The Value and Methods of Mythological Study," Proceedings of the British Academy XX, p.47].

This is true in a limited sense. Not all myths are related to, for example, catastrophic or divine events. Myths,
generally speaking, record events which are import to a people as a people, i.e. events which have contributed to
making them what or who they are.

Aristotle:
"Our forefathers in the most remote ages have handed down to their posterity a tradition, in the form of a myth, that these bodies are gods, and that the divine encloses the whole of nature. The rest of the tradition has been added later in mythical form with a view to the persuasion of the multitude and to its legal and utilitarian
expediency; they say these gods are in the form of men or like some of the other animals, and they say other
things consequent on and similar to these which we have mentioned. But if one were to separate the first point from these additions and take it alone-that they thought the first substances to be gods, one must regard this as an inspired utterance, and reflect that, while probably each art and each science has often been developed as far as possible and has again perished, these opinions, with others, have been preserved until the present like relics of the ancient treasure. Only thus far, then, is the opinion of our ancestors and of our earliest predecessors clear to us."

Aristotle Metaphysics 12.8

Diodorus of Sicily:
"But above all in importance, they say, is the study of the influence of the five stars known as planets, which they call "Interpreters"57 when speaking of them as a group, but if referring to them singly, the one named Cronus58 by the Greeks, which is the most conspicuous and presages more events and such as are of greater importance than the others,a p451they call the star of Helius, whereas the other four they designate as the stars of Ares, Aphrodite, Hermes, and Zeus,59 as do our astrologers. 4 The reason why they call them "Interpreters" is that whereas all the other stars are fixed and follow a singular circuit in a regular course, these alone, by virtue of following each its own course, point out future events, thus interpreting to mankind the design of the gods."

So, Diodorus is not using 'conspicuous' in the sense of visibly the most obvious and he says that these 5 planets
are important because the move around and are not fixed. Planets = planetoi = wanderers.

To me, all this Saturn=Sun thing depends upon the definition of 'sun'. What Egyptian, Sumerian, Greek, etc, word is being translated as 'sun'. For a similar example see above. The Greeks didn't have a clear-cut differentiation of
stars and planets as we do. Planets were wandering stars (cue Lee Marvin). comets were anything which wasn't a
wandering or fixed star, i.e. not asteroids, planetesimals or whatever. The Greeks word translated as gods is
usually 'theoi' which can be translated as 'disposers'. (as in an orderly disposition rather than get rid of.). Egyptian 'Neter' and Indian 'Deva' are not direct equivalent words for 'god'.

The God of the Jews. There is a whole raft of issues here. Are we talking Hebrews, Jews or Israelites? Scholars are
are still trying to figure out who were the Hebrews.

Tacitus and Augustine are both noted for their anti-semiticism.

That Saturn features somehow in Hebrew/Jewish/Israelite religion is not rocket-science since their holy day is
Saturday. Constantine was a votary of the Sol Invictus cult hence Christians have Sunday and there are all kinds of
solar motifs in the Jesus story. Islam has Friday from Freya who is the Norse goddess of love and fertility. Freya
is the equivalent of Aphrodite, who is the equivalent of the Near Eastern mother-goddess hence the green crescent
of Islam.

Scholarship has moved on since the sources quoted by Talbott and Cardona etc. Theories have come and gone and
practically everything to do with the ancient eastern Med and NE is still hotly debated in academic circles.

Celestial Pole. The celestial pole is not a fixed position. It is the spot in the sky which an imaginary extension
of the Earth's axis points to (either N or S). Due to precession this changes over time. Hence we are currently
moving away from Pisces (Polaris) to Aquarius. The pole star always refers to one of the 'fixed' stars in a
constellation not a planet.

The aside about the Scythians from the KRONOS quote is pure fantasy as far as I can make out. The first known person to document the Scythians was Herodotus (5th century BCE) and his account gives no mention of anything resembling Saturn/Chronos. Modern scholarship agrees with Herodotus that the main deities were equivalents of Ares, Poseidon and a mother goddess.

Two golden rules: Source discrimination and always get your information from as close to the horse's mouth as is
possible.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:16 am

Moses,
Just to clarify: I read it that something entered the solar system and disturbed Venus and Mars from their regular orbits. That's at least for the LBA collapse, though according to the Iliad Ares/Mars has previous.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:53 pm

Grey Cloud,
I would say that the late bronze age collapse was initiated by some sort of planetary interaction. This would be at the end of a long period of planetary chaos. What initiated this chaos seems certain to have come from beyond the Solar System, although a galactic wave or galactic current are just as good bets as an intruding star or planet.

Whatever it was, it electrified the Solar System so that the double layers around planets moved into glow mode, thus making Saturn, for instance, appear thousands of times larger. Then there were all the very bright planetary interactions that were seen from Earth and inspired the constellations and a lot of the myths. One has to go back in history a long way before one finds the really interesting stuff.

Cheers,
Mo
moses
 
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