Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by webolife » Fri Mar 10, 2017 12:35 am

I think your sights may be set too low in grasping the meaning of the "global deluge".
We're not [at least I am not] talking about floodwater everywhere all at the same time; this is a cascade of events which began [likely] with the close encounter of a large body that became tidally interlocked with the earth for a "short" period of time. The fallout [matar] of this interplanetary interloper impacted [either physically/seismically or figuratively/electrically?] the face of the the earth. The crust ruptured leaving in evidence the ocean rift believed by some posters to have been scoured out by an EDM or plasma arc/stream [which I don't buy...yet ;) ]. It initiated an immediate collapse of the atmospheric structure, which formerly kept the earth blanketed in warmth from pole to pole; and resulted in torrential downpours for a few weeks. If you've kept up with other posted descriptions of my model, you will remember that for me these downpours were not the main cause of the deluge to follow. In my model, the onslaught of the matar continued for a period of a few months, during which the ruptured supercontinent spread and pieces of the continental crust slid away over the mantle. While the mantle spewed out of the rupture zones, the separating continents collided with the oceanic crust on the opposite side of the globe, compressing their leading edges into the mountainous [and island arc/trench] formations seen around the Pacific Rim [and horizontally in the lower northern latitudes]. The ongoing seismic and volcanic activity associated with these "leading edge" plate conditions has given rise to the plate tectonics model being disputed here. While the continental masses were moving the sea was washing into the newly created basins, and flooding over the topographically low lying land, destroying the doomed creatures that lived there, and leaving their remains either to rot on or be washed off the surface or be buried and fossilized in the sedimentary strata alleged in the standard framework as the geologic "column". That the matar continued during this shifting and flooding of the continents is evidenced by the finding of major astroblemes associated with all the major sequences. Different parts of the continent would naturally show different types of geologic evidence. For example, the Grand Canyon was carved out of the uplifted plateau that formed "behind" the rising boundary mountains, but the outwash of flood water that occurred there need not be in evidence everywhere or anywhere else, the midwest to east coast of the Americas was inundated by the Atlantic waters for part of this time, as were also lowlands of China and surrounding regions. In the polar regions the catastrophic climate change brought about a sudden cooling which turned the torrential downpours into snowfall and the rapid accumulation of glaciers. The few surviving animals spread from an area in the middle east across the globe. Some continental movement was still occurring, but at a greatly slowed rate. Animals were able to cross land bridges and swim or raft across narrow channels that existed before the meltback of the glaciers made these crossovers impassable. During this period, Fischer [and Lloyd] hypothesizes that the continental drift episode occurred, but obviously in my model that event has passed. However, after this main part of the cataclysm was eneded, other "aftershocks' so to speak, continued to shape the landforms, including volcano building, glacial meltbacks [and dam breaks, eg. Lake Missoula and the coulees of Washington], further climatic adjustments, etc. The repopulation of the world by surviving flora and fauna, and people, ensued. Enter the beginnings of civilization as we know it, birthed from the seeds of an antediluvian "golden age" which in my model has no remaining physical evidence. Evidences from archaeology in my model are entirely postdiluvian. So, finally, little "local" floods, such as the Iraqi valley floods that are credited to Noah's time by the OEC group and other secular archaelology groups do not hold a candle to the cataclysm being discussed on this thread, at least as I'm seeing it.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by sketch1946 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:02 am

I think the Grand Canyon is primarily a uplifted tectonic rift valley through which a river now flows...

This is longish, I hope people are interested... :-)

"The ubiquitous low-angle tilt and patchwork distribution of the Supergroup raises questions about its history since all sediments are considered to have originally been deposited as a blanketing of material on a generally flat surface. "

Sedimentation originally on flat surface...

(Now a bit of fairy story stuff from Gulliver's travels: Lilliput, Laputa, Balnibarbi, Luggnagg, Glubbdubdrib, Laurentia...) :-)

"During Unkar Group deposition, Laurentia collided with fragments of continental material (now fixed to South America and Africa) along its southeastern margin (Blakey and Ranney, 2008 and Timmons et al., 2012). Collisional uplift induced erosion that shed copious amounts of detrital sediment westward.

Back-arc extension thought to be associated with the culminating Grenville Orogeny, an extensive collisional mountain building event <....> along the North American continent’s northeastern margin likely thinned continental crust regionally, forming large rift basinsthat would ultimately fail to split the continent.

However, thinning of the continental plate probably caused the Grand Canyon region to sink and aided flooding by a shallow seaway.

The Cardenas Basalt and related diabase dikes and sills intruding older, underlying Unkar Group rock units formed at the close of Dox Formation deposition, mark outpourings of flood basalt lavas and their subterranean feeder system commonly produced during such rifting.

"....the remaining blocks of Supergroup rocks now found in the Grand Canyon are closely related to adjacent normal faults (Figure 2). The faults are suggestive of rifting, and indicate extension of the earth’s crust by tectonic forces that are credited to the breakup of the supercontinent Rodinia during Late Proterozoic time. In brief, the sedimentary rocks of the Supergroup are believed to have accumulated in a NE-SW elongated basin within Rodinia created by back-arc Grenvillian extension, then became faulted and tilted in the Neoproterozoic as the western landmass of Rodinia (a combined Australia, Antarctica, and China) fragmented from the North American landmass. Although the Grand Canyon region lay to the east of the rift zone, continental crust in the area was stretched generally east-west and fractured along extensive NW-SE oriented normal faults (Figure 2)."

"The eastern transgression of the sea is inferred from the western accumulation of the carbonates and deep-water mudstones, and the eastern formation of stromatolites and accumulation of the shallow-water mudstones. Mudcracks, ripple marks, and oxidized shales suggest subaerial exposure associated with periodic marine regression (Hendricks and Stevenson, 2003). Timmons et al. (2012) describes a relatively low-energy, tidal-dominated environment during the later time of the Bass Formation that resulted in an influx of mudstone and sandstone that transitioned into Hakatai Shale. "

"The Hakatai Shale is informally divided into three members. The lithology of the lower two are fractured clay-rich mudstones and shales of gentle-to-moderate, granular slopes, indicating a low-energy, mud flat environment. The upper member is composed of medium-grained quartz sandstone of ledgy, cliff-forming beds, suggestive of a higher energy, shallow-marine environment (Hendricks and Stevenson, 2003)."

Some violent stuff has gone on...

"...suggesting that the sediments were not fully lithified but still soft and pliable when disturbed by tectonic activity associated with a series of northwest-trending, high-angle, reverse faults during the deposition of the Hakatai Shale (Hendricks and Stevenson, 2003; Timmons et al., 2012). The sandstone columns formed when fluidized sands were partially injected upward into overlying muds."

"...The abundance of thick beds contorted by fluid evulsion in the upper part of its final member, representative of the mobilization of water in saturated sandstone by earthquake tremors, is suggestive of tectonic activity, but the specific faults relating to these features remain unidentified. However, this speculation is supported by similar contorted beds occurring in the Apache Group of Central Arizona, and even led to the credence of more widespread seismic activity (Timmons et al., 2012)."

Some layers were deposited in the midst of volcanic events....

"...the overlying Cardenas Basalt is conformable and even interfingering in some locations. Evidence proves that the sediments of the Dox Formation were still depositing when the first eruption occurred. In places, Dox sediments are mildly baked at contact with Cardenas lava flows; and there are thin, discontinuous deposits of basaltic lavas in the upper Dox Formation, including small folds and convolutions suggestive of soft sediment deformation. And quite uniquely, there is even a rounded mass of igneous rock (less than 3.3 feet in diameter) entirely covered in a thin layer of siltstone of Dox lithology and set in the lowest basaltic flow (Hendricks and Stevenson, 2003)."

"Thin, discontinuous flows, sandstone interbeds, and broken basalt weathered to nodules are preserved within this unit despite its extensive weathering. Roughly two-hundred and thirty feet above the base of the Cardenas Lava, the basalt becomes more massive and less altered. A high sodium and magnesium content combined with depletion of potassium, all indicate a spilitic alteration which could have occurred with rapid quenching in the sea or brackish water. The sandstone interbeds likely occurred during periods of volcanic inactivity involving flowing or ponded water on the surface of the lava ..."

"...the volcanic pile accumulated more quickly than the basin could subside to accommodate it. The evidence begins with an autoclastic breccia directly above the continuous layer of sandstone and is followed by a fan-jointed unit, ropy lava, and finally a lapillite unit at the 754-foot level. On top of the lapillite lava, a continuous sandstone layer sits upon a planar surface. This was interpreted as the result of volcanic activity ceasing temporarily following generation of the lapillite event, smoothing of the surface by erosion, and subsequent subsidence of the igneous rocks."

"This process prompted by the temporary cessation of volcanic activity is believed to have been repeated at least two more times within the upper member. Overall, the Cardenas Basalt was erupted in phases, allowing time for the deposition of interbedded sandstones. Eventually, volcanic activity concluded, the Unkar Group was tilted gently to the northeast (possibly due to tectonic movement...."

"The sills have been measured at thicknesses ranging from 75 feet in Hance Rapids to 985 feet in Hakatai Canyon. The fine-grained, chilled margins of the sills indicate that the magma was highly fluid and very hot (upwards of 2200 °C) when it intruded into the sedimentary rocks...."

"Hendricks and Stevenson (2003) believe that the relationships between the sills, dikes, and Cardenas lava flows reflect a single, albeit prolonged, volcanic event."

"...The ocean, which was located to the west in Unkar time, transgressed eastward across a gently undulating terrain as far as the eastern Grand Canyon, but likely much further..."

"...Tectonic activity along northeast-trending, high-angle reverse faults mark the end of Hakatai Shale deposition and ensuing uplift and/or marine regression resulted in a period of erosion prior to the deposition of the next formation ..."

"..The remainder of its deposition altered between marine and nonmarine environments with the sporadic accumulation of the lava and continued subsidence of the land, though the lava flows eventually accumulated more rapidly. Following the extrusion of more than 985 feet of lava, the area experienced tectonic uplift..."

This stuff is always assumed to happen over very long periods of time, but recently there has been evidence of major uplifting or faulting that happens very quickly, like the Indian Ocean fault induced tsunami...

"...and rapid transportation, information used by Timmons et al. (2012) to suggest that these sediments likely travelled westward from mountainous highlands in the southeast via a large river system. Timmons et al. (2012) believe that the Hazel Formation in west Texas, a coarse apron of sediments that records an impressive mountain building event, was likely transported from the Grenville Mountains, and thus correlates to the Dox Formation. The Hazel Formation records an impressive mountain building event referred to as the Grenville Orogeny. Evidence stretches from the southwest to the northeast of the United States, as well as on every current continent. This impressive continental plate collision...."

"...A high percentage of sediments were transported from the continental scale Grenville Mountains and deposited in this basin as the sea experienced an overall eastern transgression punctuated by minor variations in sea level due to subsidence and basin filling. Fifty eight-hundred feet of sediment accumulated before the Cardenas lavas erupted onto the wet surface of the Dox Formation, adding more than 985 feet of igneous rock. After the eruptions ceased, the Unkar rocks were tilted slightly northeast, eroded, and the deposition of the overlying Nankoweap Formation commenced ..."

Imagine all this being laid down as part of a huge series of catastrophes, rather than the usual uniformitarian slow deposition that is always assumed....

"...and truncated at the top by the Great Unconformity and overlying Tapeats Sandstone. The sequence displays Martian-like colors and the entirety of the group is approximately 6800 feet thick; although thickness varies east-west across the north-trending Chuar Syncline which parallels the Butte Fault since the sediments were deposited as the syncline developed (Dehler et al., 2012; Ford and Dehler, 2003). Dehler et al. (2012) reports this group to be nearly 85 percent mudrock, with interruptions of meter-thick sandstone and dolomite beds. The strata are fossiliferous, unmetamorphosed, and the contacts between formations are gradational and determined by the presence or absence of the carbonate beds ..."

"...The unit differs from the lower two members in that it is characterized by a significant component of sandstone beds in addition to the presence of the carbonate and shale beds of the lower members. Sandstone layers are typically not more than a few feet thick, but form a grand total thickness of 1546 feet within the unit. The carbonate beds are 3 to 6 feet thick ..."

"...suggest that this rifting could be the second recorded attempt to breakup Rodinia, their first “record” having been deleted by the erosion surrounding the Nankoweap Formation. Evidence of the rifting of Rodinia and similar syntensional deposits to the Chuar Group are found in British Colombia, Utah, and California. A possible scenario is an intracratonic rift, where the basin would trap the sediment."

"...cyclical changes of low-energy, coastal marine environments resulting in the deposition of shales, carbonates, and sandstones in a tectonically active basin during a Neoproterozoic rifting event..."

“horizontal laminations, small- to large-scale planar tabular and trough cross-stratification, and wavy and lenticular bedding.” They also identified coarsening- and fining-upward sequences in the central Grand Canyon. Trace fossils and body fossils are abundant in the Bright Angel Shale, and Blakey and Middleton (2012) report that the fossils record a “major proliferation of invertebrate fauna.”

"In the western section of the Grand Canyon, dolostones overlie the Muav Limestone to a thickness of over 400 feet..."

"The upper, coarser sections exhibit thick, planar tabular cross-stratification, often with abrupt changes in the dip of foresets that likely formed by migration of sand waves, dunes, and ripples associated with stronger tidal and storm-wave generated currents. Fining-upward sequences typically overlie an erosive base. They begin with pebble conglomerate or sandstone and grade into interbedded fine-grained sandstone and mudstone. The coarse basal layer is representative of high-energy deposition during storm-induced currents capable of transporting coarse material. Symmetric ripples and a high amount of laminated mudstone occur at the top of these sequences. They are marked by a diverse array of trace fossils representative of post-storm resettling of muds and sands..."

"...of course, these rocks wouldn’t have been preserved if not for the self-generating nature of passive continental marginal tectonic settings, creating accommodation space for the sediments to accumulate through subsidence (a mere rise in sea level could not account for the thickness of material preserved). Finally, these Middle Cambrian rock units also portray the amazing proliferation of life on planet earth at this time, located in the middle of a very short (geologically speaking), 150 million year time stream in which life went from nothing more advanced than single-celled organisms in the late Proterozoic, to evolve the most complex phyla found on earth today...."

And then there are the 'unconformities' where the layers are ignorantly out of place in the 'proper' sequence...

"...the strata are truncated eastward by the Temple Butte. These unnamed layers do appear to conform with deposition of the Muav Limestone, and Korolev and Rowland (1993) have correlated the undifferentiated dolomite layer in the Grand Canyon to the Banded Mountain Member of the Bonanza King Formation of Nevada, which is thought to be of late Middle Cambrian age. Where the Temple Butte is in direct contact with the Muav Limestone, the unconformable surface is identified by the considerable relief created by channels and depressions up to 100 feet deep. However, there are areas where the channels are absent. The result is a planar contact of gray dolomite from the Temple Butte and the Muav Limestone, making the unconformity difficult to locate..."

"...Temple Butte strata truncate older rocks from west to east across the Grand Canyon region. The disconformity at the base of this formation marks a significant stratigraphic break in the Grand Canyon’s Paleozoic sedimentary sequence..."

"However, the convergence of an oceanic plate with the North American plate in latest Devonian-Mississippian time resulted in the Antler Orogeny to the west in central Nevada (Beus, 2003). The colliding Antler arc shoved strata deposited in deep water over the continental shelf to form the Antler highlands (Blakely, 2014). The weight of the thickened crust caused eastern Nevada and western Utah to subside in a forearc basin and thick Upper Devonian and Lower Mississippian strata formed there. Farther east, thinner deposits accumulated on a broad carbonate shelf over much of the Western Interior (Figure 16a). The Grand Canyon sat on the periphery of orogenic activities, and was affected by them only indirectly (Beus, 2003). A broad, but gentle forearc bulge probably enhanced subaerial exposure in the Late Mississippian and helped induce channel incision on the karstified landscape (Figure 16b). Localized uplift also occurred as faults shifted the crust due to the contractions associated with the Antler Orogeny. For example, following the deposition of the Redwall Limestone and prior to the Surprise Canyon Formation, an anticline caused by east-west compression and reactivation of a buried fault was responsible for the truncation of the Horseshoe Mesa member of the Redwall Limestone in the Tanner Trail area of the eastern Grand Canyon."

"Composed almost entirely of pure carbonates, often “pelleted and locally skeletal or oolitic wackestones and packstones,” it is also accompanied by iron oxides and less than 2 percent of gypsum. It is deposited in thick beds, ranging 2 to 4 feet thick, and is dominated by fine-grained limestone in the west and dolomite in central and eastern Grand Canyon. The Whitmore Wash unit spans an area from about five miles beyond the western edge of the Grand Canyon at a thickness of approximately 200 feet to Iceberg Ridge in the east, thinning to around 100 feet. Due to extensive dolomization, fossils are rare in the Whitmore Wash member. Its upper contact is conformable and easily distinguished from the alternating dark chert and light carbonate beds of the Thunder Springs member. The initial deposition of the Whitmore Wash began as a major transgression resulted in oolitic shoals created by high energy currents..."

"...the third and thickest member, Mooney Falls, also thickens from east to west, ranging from around 200 to 400 feet. This member forms the sheer wall plastered in oxidized muds that inspired its name. It is characterized by pure limestone with thin beds or lenses of chert towards the top, but is locally dolomitized. The limestone is thickly bedded, micritic, and accompanied by carbonate grains including oolites, pellets, and skeletal fragments. Invertebrate marine fossils are also abundant in the Mooney Falls member and include solitary and colonial corals, spiriferid brachiopods, and crinoids. The top third of the member in the central and eastern Grand Canyon is also characterized by large-scale, tabular-planar cross-bedding...."
http://www.geo.mtu.edu/KeweenawGeoherit ... dding.html

"....The presence of imbricated cobbles provides evidence for a unidirectional, westward flowing, fluvial current. Conglomerates grade upward into quartz sand or siltstone or carbonaceous shale. The sandstone facies is “yellow to dark reddish brown or purple,” flat-lying, characterized by trough cross-strata or ripple lamination, and contain Lepidodentron log impressions (Beus, 2003). The shale facies is dark and plant fossils have been found in the unit. Beus (2003) reports that this lower unit preserves “a record of continental and fluvial conditions changing to intertidal conditions as the sea transgressed eastward into the estuary and began to trap and rework clastic sediments..."

"...Paired with the abundance of marine invertebrate fossils, the bimodal current is suggestive of an estuary environment dominated by flood tides..." mmm floods...

"...although the Antler Orogeny to the west likely caused sporadic upwarping of the crust, aiding the occasional exposure event and production of unconformable surfaces within the Redwall-Surprise Canyon sedimentary rock sequence..."

More 'unconformities':

"...Deposited prior to the Supai Group during the Mississippian Period is the Redwall Limestone, with the Surprise Canyon Formation sandwiched in discontinuous patches between the two. Following the deposition of the Supai Group is the Hermit Formation, also of the Permian period, and often associated with the Supai Group because of similarities in sediment type and inferred origin even though an unconformity separates the two rock units..."

I wonder what evidence a megatsunami would leave, especially if tides were global and 2 or 3 km high...?

"...It consists of three types of sandstone containing “very fine- to medium-grained quartz grains to ooids, abraded fossils, and peloids” (Blakey, 2003). Units are typically held together with calcite, and the “more limey” sections are accompanied by Jasper (red chert). According to Blakey (2003), the first sandstone is cross-stratified and comprised of trough, planar, and compound bed sets, in thicknesses ranging from 1 to 30 feet. Within these strata are found climbing translatent strata. Supporting an interpretation of eolian deposition for the unit are thin laminae that show reverse grading while each lamina records the migration of a single wind ripple. The geometry of the strata leads geologists to suspect deposition at the forward base and between dunes, on eolian sheets of sand (supported by the horizontal to very low angles of sediments), and due to migration of the eolian dunes (supported by the climbing strata). The second sandstone is described as having “horizontally laminated to very low-angle, cross-stratified, fine-grained, calcareous, and silty units up to 20 feet thick”

"...its lithologic components are exceedingly similar to that of the Manakacha. This sheet-like body of sand expands across the Grand Canyon and the western Mogollon Rim region while maintaining thicknesses from 100 to 200 feet. In the central Grand Canyon and western Chino Valley, sandstone is the dominant facies, while mudstone increases in the east and limestone to the west of Chino Valley. The Wescogame Formation is informally divided into an upper slope unit and a lower cliff unit. In addition, three north-east-trending facies belts have become associated with this formation. The easternmost belt is the redbed facies, located near the Hermit Basin and spanning to the western Verde Valley. The middle belt is the sandstone facies, extending west from the eastern belt through the Shivwits Plateau region. Finally, cross-stratified limestone and limey sandstone composes the limestone facies of the westernmost belt..."
http://www.indiana.edu/~geol105/images/ ... ctures.htm

"...and compression generated by plate collisions along the southern and southwestern edge of the North American plate penetrated far inland to form the Ancestral Rocky Mountains (Blakey and Ranney, 2008). Erosion of the Uncompaghre Uplift, a western extension of the Ancestral Rockies in western Colorado and eastern Utah, generated copious amounts of sediment that accumulated to vast thicknesses on the eastern Colorado Plateau..."

"Interruptions were again caused by fluctuations in sea level coupled with fluvial activity, eventually transitioning to fluvial conditions as the eolian supply diminished...

"...the Kaibab Limestone is composed primarily of limestone (Wuerthner, 1998), which can reach a thickness of anywhere from 300 feet and, in northwestern Arizona where it is thickest, an excess of 500 feet thick (Hopkins and Thompson, 2003). The Kaibab overall was likely deposited in a subtidal, shallow-marine environment where minor fluctuations in sea level could abruptly change the water depth and corresponding depositional environment ..."

Abrupt changes in water depth...

"...it consists of “sandstone and dolomite with a rich [marine] fossil assemblage” (Fillmore, 2000). As Fillmore explains, “The gamma member was laid down as the sea advanced eastward across Utah and Arizona….”, and just as with the Toroweap, as marine waters advanced eastward, deeper water conditions would help to deposit the overlying beta member."

"...The Fossil Mountain Member is described by Fillmore (2000) as being a “massive, cliff-forming cherty limestone” that was deposited when sea level was at its highest. This member typically contains abundant and diverse marine-fauna such as brachiopods, bryozoans, crinoids, sponges, and solitary corals. However, as your location within the member moves eastward, the fauna changes to suggest more restricted conditions and the member becomes more siliciclastic-dominated, indicating yet again that the water source lay to the west (Hopkins and Thompson, 2003)."

"As the member thickens westward it can become up to 300 feet thick; and though the Kaibab Formation as a whole is largely known for its limestone composition, the Fossil Mountain Member is “75 percent sandstone or sandy dolostone” with scattered chert, dolomite, and limestone throughout (Hopkins and Thompson, 2003). The Fossil Mountain was likely deposited on a shallow “Kaibab Sea” that regularly experienced sea level rises and falls, extending eastward into the Grand Canyon area during transgression and receding westward toward the continental margin during regression (Fillmore, 2000). The difference between the beta member of the Kaibab Formation and the beta member of the Toroweap Formation is that, during the time of Fossil Mountain deposition, water covered nearly all of Utah, Arizona, and most of southern New Mexico..."

"...These repeated “shifts” in depositional environments due to sea level change can be observed throughout the Grand Canyon region with the regular alterations between carbonate, siliciclastic, and evaporite deposits. The Harrisburg Member in particular consists of an array of gypsum, dolostone, sandstone, redbeds, chert, and minor limestone ..."

A region wide unconformity...

"The Moenkopi Formation is believed to have been formed during the Early (and possibly early Middle) Triassic Period, while it is inferred that Chinle deposition occurred during the Late Triassic (Reppening and Cooley, 1969), the two rock units being separated by a significant region-wide unconformity."

"...The initial shifting of tectonic plates during the Triassic affected “western North America only indirectly because the region was far removed from the rifting margins of the breakup” (Fillmore, 2011). Yet the shifts still had some impact on the Colorado Plateau region as continental masses split apart to form constricted seaways that ultimately grew to form ocean basins, and marine transgressions and regressions came and went across the landscape, leaving their mark as the sedimentary rocks of the Mesozoic..."

"...while the volcanic arc surrounding the westernmost side of the Chinle basin would “episodically” erupt to leave evidence of its activity in the form of copious volcanic ash within some of the rock unit’s members..."

Mix of terrestrial and marine fossils:

..Fossils within the Moenkopi formation represent “a mix of terrestrial and marine taxa,” such as plants, brachiopods, fish, reptiles, amphibians, and reptile footprints (Sprinkel, et al., 2003). This mix of terrestrial and marine fossils within the members of the rock unit..."

"...The Chinle Formation overlies the Moenkopi Formation, however, “the contact between the Lower Triassic Moenkopi and the Upper Triassic Chinle Formation is an unconformity marked by the absence of Middle Triassic strata”, an erosional surface which “represents an omission of up to 10 million years” (Fillmore, 2011). The top of the Moenkopi contains distinctive northwesterly oriented furrows, presumably cut by stream erosion and into which the initial deposition of Chinle material occurred. This missing information in the rock record is the reason why it is difficult for scientists to determine if Moenkopi deposition continued into Middle Triassic time, because the geologic history needed to determine this simply isn’t there."

"Fossils within the Chinle Formation include petrified wood (which is the most abundant), as well as fossils of fish, bivalves, amphibians, dinosaurs, and dinosaur tracks” (Sprinkel, et al., 2003); all indicative of a terrestrial setting. The rock unit’s sediments are inferred to be composed of “varying amounts of fluvial and lacustrine interbedded sandstone, mudstone, claystone, siltstone, limestone, gritstone, and conglomerate”

Pretty much like what would be left after a tsunami, or continental tidal type flooding event,
and associated vulcanism: :-)

"...The Shinarump Member primarily consists of relatively high energy stream-channel deposits.."

"...throughout the Utah area, the Shinarump can largely be characterized as having trough cross-bedded sandstone, siltstone, and mudstone, as well as having fragments of petrified wood (as most of the members in the Chinle do) (Sprinkel, et al., 2003). However, the Shinarump also contains “volcanic-derived pebbles,” indicating that the volcanic arc associated with the ongoing Sonoma Orogeny that developed during Moenkopi deposition continued through Shinarump time..."

"An interesting sedimentological feature of this member, along with all of the petrified wood that it contains, is the fact that it also contains bentonite. “Bentonite, or montmorillonite, is a type of clay produced from the decomposition (devitrification) of volcanic ash. .."

"...This member also contains abundant fossil wood, and huge logs (some 6 feet in diameter and 90 ft long) have been found (Sprinkel, et al., 2003). These huge logs (as well as coal deposits)..."

Another unconformity:

"Between the Moenkopi and Chinle Formations there is an erosional unconformity..."

If such long periods of time weren't asserted, all this Grand Canyon formation and sedimentation would seem pretty violent and catastrophic..

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by sketch1946 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:21 am

From 'MrGamma' on scienceforums.net:

"...Searching the USGS earthquake database I found the following information regarding the total amount of earthquakes having been recorded since the seventies. The grand canyon has by far the greatest ocurrances of earthquakes which suggests it has the greatest potential for tectonic movement.

The Grand Canyon
300km radius 936 quakes
500km radius 9860 quakes

Red Rock Canyon Alberta
300km radius 82 quakes
500km radius 334 quakes

Bryce Canyon
300km radius 77 quakes
500km radius 242 quakes

Black Canyon
300km radius 733 quakes
500km radius 4013 quakes

Kings Canyon
300km radius 117 quakes
500km radius 388 quakes

Nahanni Four Canyons
300km radius 218 quakes
500km radius 269 quakes

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/3280 ... ft-system/

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by webolife » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:04 pm

Call me a geology nerd, but I found that to be a great little summation of Grand Canyon sedimentology and seismic geology. Minus the obligatory references to geologic ages, these evidences show an extremely active seismic, orogenic and deluvial event [ie. series of related events]. It is understood [by the catastrophist perspective] that the uplifting of the Kaibab was attended by much faulting, that this faulting presented a less resistant substrate for the floodwaters to cut through the plateau as they drained, and that this was aided in its rapid rate by the "softness" of the recent and not yet fully cemented sediments of the rising basin. "Plate" movement seems to be an adequate driver of the pressures involved in producing the crustal deformations and regional uplift we see in the Grand Canyon.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:36 pm

Gordon, I listed on page one or two of this thread Jonathan Gray's evidences of artifacts of civilization found within sedimentary rock layers in a number of locations, esp. in the U.S. Some were found in coal seams. I don't recall any having been found in basement or Precambrian rock, but it seems that's where it should have been. I don't understand how pavement tiles, walls etc could have been built during the Great Flood, but it seems that's possible evidence of earlier civilization. Do you have any insights about that?

GC, the first thing that needs explaining in geology is how the sedimentary rock strata were deposited. As I've stated, there cannot have been thousands of years in which only sand was deposited over nearly continent-wide areas and then thousands of years of only clay deposited and then thousands of years of only calcite. Experiments show that normal extreme flooding automatically sorts all sediments into separate strata. Conforming strata cannot have laid exposed for thousands of years to weathering without getting severely eroded, in which case the strata then would not be conforming. Unconformities that are smooth can probably only have been smoothed by sheet erosion, i.e. huge flooding. As for mammoths, Fischer did the calculations on population and showed that a few million would be living within 3 centuries if there were abundant plantlife, like grasses. A female reproducing every 2 years would have ten offspring in 20 years, etc.

Sketch, your material would likely have been better in table form with a lot fewer words. It doesn't seem to consider catastrophism much. The supposed transgressions and regressions, I believe, are meant to suggest that the continents rose and fell numerous times in order to get the seas to deposit sediments. Instead of the continents rising and falling, it's much simpler for megatsunamis to have moved sediment-laden ocean waters over the originally low altitude continents.

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by sketch1946 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:37 am

G'day Lloyd,
Lloyd wrote:Sketch, your material would likely have been better in table form with a lot fewer words. It doesn't seem to consider catastrophism much.
The point I was trying to emphasise was by extracting long age suppositions from
that article, the evidence shows what would be catastrophic if it was all a series of
much shorter events... I agree the evidence points to huge flooding events over much
shorter time scales
ie the evidence seems to show catastrophic flood deposition
rather than long age sedimentation...

I still remember that article about a guy whose co-worker was washed off the
highway in a flash flood event, her car was buried in mud, in a few minutes....
it makes you wonder about how that would be interpreted geologically by
experts in stratigraphy....

In that article huge trees are transported from miles away and buried in presumably
a similar event... same with the fossils, especially the mashed up fossil beds...
sketch1946 wrote:"...This member also contains abundant fossil wood, and huge logs (some 6 feet in diameter and 90 ft long) have been found (Sprinkel, et al., 2003). These huge logs (as well as coal deposits)..."
Sorry about all the words, but I didn't want to change the original too much, I just selected the
bits relating to extreme flooding, tectonic, and volcanic events
by lifting them out of their uniformitarian matrix of suppositions, but left the overall sequence intact....
then at the end I provided the link to the original which was much longer
so people could read for themselves the full article :-)

The authors in fairness are not suggesting catastrophe or major tsunami or flood events,
I added a couple of interjections here and there to try to point out how the catastrophes
are embedded in the evidence, but are always explained away by assertions of
long time periods, and also showing how many inconsistencies are embedded in the
interpretation of the geological evidence

ie when there should be some evidence for thousands of years in the current model
of expected layers, the layer is just 'missing', sometimes there is a conjecture that no rain fell for a few centuries, and wind blew all the evidence away, or simply left as an unexplained 'unconformity'.. :-)

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:48 am

Question for Gordon

Gordon, this Wikipedia image shows the locations of the Yellowstone hotspot from its start till now:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... te2013.JPG.

Do you think that shows the North American plate movement toward the end of the continental drift event? If so, it looks like as North America was moving westward it finished by moving southwestward. Would you agree? Also, it looks like the eruptions started as the Pacific plate edge reached SE Oregon and continued to erupt at equal intervals for 4 or 5 hundred miles till the plates came to rest.

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by webolife » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:30 am

I mused about this same question a few years ago while visiting and studying the Craters of the Moon Monument region west of Idaho Falls. A more likely cause of the northward shift is the way the mountain "roots" pushed into the hot underlying aesthenospheric magma pool, diverting it toward the north. For a confirmation of this I'd want to see seismic studies of the magma basin relative to the Rocky Mountain mass to see how deeply they impinge into the mantle, and in the Idaho region, how that may have affected the magma plume now energizing the Yellowstone caldera. That said, there's possibly no way to tell how much the crustal plates "wiggled" so to speak as they were drifting... relative to the approx 5000+km alleged westward movement of the N Amer plate, that few-hundred-km northward diversion of the hotspot is just a "wiggle".

Regarding eruptions along the boundary as the Pacific plate encountered the west coast, there are a number of interesting aspects to consider, not necessarily in their order of occurence here:
1. Interbedding of oceanic basalt [often the pillow type] and sedimentary structures along the Coastal Ranges, from Alaska down to California
2. Compressional melting of the "granitic" continental edge as it was bulldozing its way westward which resulted in plumes of andesitic lava erupting all along the Cascadian corridor, which continues to the present
3. Overlapping [or maybe "interlapping" is better] of the oceanic crust with the continental edge resulting in the eruption of "oceanic" basalts inland, ie. the Columbia river basalts and related features extending into northern California
4. The extension of this inland process into the Rocky plateau regions via the shifting magma plume/hotspot
5. The presence of coal beds paralleling the Cascadian Cordillera on both the west and east sides of the range, assisted, in my opinion, by methane plumes through weak/faulting areas of the uplifting mountain range
6. ...and many more interwoven geologic events...
All the aspects of Pacific Northwest geology must be incorporated into the catastrophic model in order to get the full picture of the events that occurred here toward the end of the deluge [and subsequently]; this must be contextualized with the entire Pacific Rim, since the regions are all correlated; since that extension incorporates spreading rift zones, the entire catastrophic geology of the world, with all its peculiar regional complexities must eventually fall into place. This has been the focus of my catastrophic earth history model since the mid '70s.
Last edited by webolife on Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:41 pm

Thanks, Gordon. That's a lot of info to incorporate.

Charles' model says volcano heat originates at the Moho, which is only 30 or 40 km below continental surfaces usually, so it looks like mountain roots formed as the plates came to a stop. The Moho appears to be the surface over which the continents slid with little friction. So I guess the roots formed as friction built up toward the end of the movement.

I mentioned in the thread about his model that he now says seamounts form in chains starting at "subduction" zones because the magma comes from the Moho and each successive eruption moves the magma channel beyond the previous eruption site where the Moho is closer to the surface, I think. Do you think that's any better explanation than your model regarding the Hawaiian chain?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by webolife » Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:56 pm

The Sandwich Islands are of a different nature than the island arcs that typify the Pacific Rim volcano chains.
The Sandwich [Hawaiian] isles are basaltic shield cones apparently forming over a moving [dare I say "convecting"?] hotspot which surfaced/plumed first in the environs of Midway and has moved eastward from there, or alternately/equivalently the oceanic crust slid westward over this mantle plume, perhaps in consequence of the east Pacific rise [rift?]. Not far from Hawaii the crustal plate measures a "thin" several kms thick. By stark contrast, the island arc chains from the Aleutians on south to Indonesia and New Zealand are generally stratovolcanoes [eg. andesitic lava] formed over [ie. in association with or parallel with] relatively thick continental "roots", in a similar manner to the Cascadian volcanoes of the east Pacific [PNW of the US]. The "bulldozing" effect of Asia [Asia wasn't moving directly eastward] against the Pacific crust is hardly remarkable compared to that of the relatively westward movement of the Americas, so the continental shelf seas that characterize the east Asian coastline contrast with the coastal ranges of the US. Nonetheless, the west Pacific trenches are quite remarkable, and if those regions indicate "subduction", that's where I would look for evidence of that model. (Broken record alert: I'm not a strong proponent of subduction.)
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:08 am

Webolife wrote:
I'm not a strong proponent of subduction
Disclaimer: He tried it once at college but didn't inhale. :shock:
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I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by webolife » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:54 pm

Yep that's me.
I still hold to the possibility and feasibility of the dense ocean crust underthrusting an advancing less dense continental crust, but there is not a mounting bag of predicted evidences in its favor. I have for decades believed that the available evidence supports a bulldozing of the boundary mountains that brought the drifting continents to a near halt after a rapid episode of seafloor spreading, regardless of subduction. There is plenty of mountainous and plateau uplift on the continents to account for the amount of spreading that is purported to have occurred due to upwelling of the mid-ocean rifts, and plenty of seismic activity to evidence the collision model.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by perpetual motion » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:06 pm

http://www.geo.cornell.edu/geology/clas ... t_age.gif/

Pay no heed to the math magicians imaginative numbers on this page. What I am looking into is the
north american continent, as far south as Mexico, that seems to have over ridden this pacific ridge
as far north as Alaska and over to northern Siberia. This most likely is from massive continental
movement that had to happen within days or weeks which just flattened this pacific ridge under
sheer weight, which is why this rocky mountain range came to be.
Then don't forget about these massive lava, magma fields came in to play. There is a lot of these
remnants left over, clear over to Yellowstone Park as to some of these lava tubes were uprooted
and placed vertically for miles, and to our surprise, given these imaginative years there is very,
very little erosion.
Magma instantly pored out from this massive pressure. But from 18000 to 20000 feet down? This is
going on present day depth elevations, they have no idea of these elevations or depths were at
the time. Neither do I.

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by sketch1946 » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:57 am

Haha, yes the mechanics are very speculative, but imagine a scenario like
a close approach of a planetary kind, say Venus-size, at a distance approx 100,000km,
doing a gravity assist manouvre...

Earth's continental crusts in this situation would be significantly lighter, they would weigh less and be lifted relative to the spinning core and denser oceanic seafloor lithosphere...

...Concentrating only on the Americas, imagine the Earth is rotating in an easterly
direction, possibly at a faster rate than current, the core of the Earth literally drives the heavier Pacific Ocean seafloor basalt layer with it's spreading faults right under the Rockies, and Andes... they pile up
in the west, the whole previously lower flatter landscape is crumpled up and now sits
on top of the previous ocean bed,

This sliding of the crust could happen in quite slow motion, if the planets were moving slowly relative to each other,
or maybe over a few days of the interaction... the mountain building, orogeny, could happen from the
Himalayas, with the twisting and crumpling visible as a huge band of mountains from Southern China
to the northwest of Pakistan, where the maximum twisting happens, down through the Caucasus to the Swiss and Spanish Alps

You can do a simple experiment, put a flat ply board on the table top, cover it with a table cloth so that the tablecloth covers half the board. The table cloth will have a tendency to stick to the board. then slide the board slowly laterally under the table cloth, and watch the fold mountains appear.... :-)

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:15 am

Sketch and Perpetual, have yous seen the videos and read the explanations of mountain building and continental drift at http://NewGeology.us? Can you see that the model there explains practically all of Earth's major features?


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