Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:32 am

Seasmith, interesting. Charles figured that extreme pressure causes electrons to get squeezed out of atoms, thus causing substance to become plastic or elastic. That seems to be true in the Kola borehole at a depth of 7 miles. So if we know the pressure there, we can possibly figure out how much pressure was needed to fold rock strata in mountains. Looks like it must be less than 10 GPa, maybe 6 or so. Next I need a formula for velocity and mass of the strata in collision and how that relates to pressure. Since p=F/A, I guess it's also momentum/Area/time, and I guess momentum is mass times velocity.

Oops, I didn't notice Charles replied too. Looks like he's agreeing that horizontal pressure from colliding plates could squeeze out enough electrons to soften and fold strata.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:46 pm

I'm with Charles' comments above.

Having personally watched solid ground rippling [without cracking] during Seattle's March 1964 earthquake, I am also gratified to see that amazing seismic footage from the satellite's eye view.

I can't confidently deny Fischer's time scale for the plate drift and boundary mountain folding, it simply doesn't match my framework for the deluge. I know you, Lloyd, want to have a second cataclysm after the deluge to account for an upper region of strata. Here's what I can say for that: I count all the strata including Cenozoic as elements of the deluge event sequence, but see the Pleistocene and to some extent Pliocene events as related to after-movements and post-deluge drainage from the "newly" uplifted plateaus and mountain watershed zones. Additionally, I see the glacial period as having been triggered by the deluge events, most importantly the cascading collapse of the atmospheric greenhouse structure that is evidenced by the global climate change that occurred, from the worldwide pre-deluge sub-tropic biomes to the macro- and micro-climate zones of the post-deluge world. We're still in that glacial period, and while the the atmosphere is and has been rebounding [global warming] for the last several millenia [eg. El Nino and La Nina events evidence this rebounding], critical levels of melting in the arctic regions, particularly the tundra, have released in the past decades and century huge amounts of previously frozen [greenhouse gas] methane which has added to the alarmed perception of some environmentalists that somehow we're causing global warming by anthropogenic CO2 emissions. Excuse the tangential rant on AGW... different topic, hold it... same topic exactly!
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:31 am

Lloyd et al,
I have no problem with either hours or months. Perhaps there would be a period of 'rumblings' lasting hours/days/weeks/months then WHOOMPH - up they go, followed by another period of rumblings and settling?

What about subsequent erosion? If there was a lot of torrential rain and high winds, would erosion proceed at an accelerated rate? I'm thinking of the effect on conventional dating here - would the acceleration be enough to affect the dating?
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:00 am

GC, the rumblings likely would not have lasted an hour before a mild jolt occurred, then the drifting, but I suppose rumbling would have continued to occur during the drift too. There seems likely to have been flooding on the west coasts of the Americas just before mountain ranges formed there. Erosion would have occurred with the flooding etc. I'll discuss more below.

Reconsidering Gordon's Version
Gordon, what do you think of the following scenario? Baumgardener figured that tsunamis 2.5km high laid down the sedimentary rock strata during the Great Flood. That's about 8,000 ft high. This seems to suppose that the Supercontinent did not have hills or mountains over that height. The average depth of the present strata is nearly a mile. He seemed to suggest that the cause of the tsunamis was a large body possibly on an eccentric orbit around the Earth, so that a megasequence of strata formed during each close approach, with disconformities between megasequences due to some erosion. Does that also seem right?
- Getting some ideas from Mike Fischer, it seems that the biggest impact broke up the supercontinent, but before that several other big impacts occurred, e.g., the Chixilub impact in Mexico, the Hudson Bay impact in Canada, a Siberian traps impact etc. These impacts produced glass spherules etc under the KT boundary, then the biggest impact off east Africa produced the Iridium layer on top of the spherule debris. Do you buy that as plausible?
- Due to the biggest impact the supercontinent broke up and the continents moved to near their present locations in about 26 hours with orogenesis in the first hour or two and again in the last two or so hours. Do you now consider that time frame plausible? If it took weeks or months for continental drift to occur, I don't think there'd be enough horizontal pressure in plate collisions to fluidize and fold strata into mountains. Do you?
- At the end of the rapid continental drift most of the mammoths etc were washed off of Siberia onto the continental shelf in the Arctic Ocean. Extremely cold air, dust storms and blizzards with rock ice soon froze to death the remaining mammoths and other mammals etc. Dinosaur bone beds were laid down on Alaska's North Slope. Do those contain mammal bones too, like the bone bed in South Carolina, which also had human relics? Walter Brown said some streams in the Arctic are frozen solid with frozen fish and a herd of frozen cattle in swimming position with the frozen heads above the solid ice stream, again showing almost instant freezing.
- Mike Fischer thinks the main rock strata lithified into harder strata because they contained more lime because the impacts removed at least half of the atmosphere, which reduced air pressure on the oceans, which allowed more CO2 to degas to form the lime. He thinks the Cenozoic strata above the main strata formed from sediment that contained much less lime, which is partly why he thinks that occurred centuries later. Why do you think the upper strata are so much more crumbly than the main strata?

Fluidized Impacts
This supports what we concluded yesterday, that great pressure fluidizes rock by squeezing out electrons, which allows rock strata to fold without cracking.
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-38019604
Chicxulub Crater ... off Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula [took about ten minutes to form 30km deep by 80+km wide from an asteroid 15km wide moving about 20km/s.] ... When the asteroid struck the Earth, the rocks it hit also behaved like a fluid. "These rocks must have lost their strength and cohesion, and very dramatically had their friction reduced," said Prof Morgan. "So, yes, temporarily, they behave like a fluid. It's the only way you can make a crater like this [with waves]."

Flood Basalts from Asteroids?
Gordon, could flood basalts have been formed from basaltic asteroids that melted on impact? Here are 3 maps of world flood basalt.
World Flood Basalt Maps
- http://www.colorado.edu/geolsci/Resources/WUSTectonics/CRFB/jerram%20world%20cfb.JPG
- https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/history-of-geology/files/2011/09/BRESSAN_LIP_map1.jpg
- https://www.geolsoc.org.uk/~/media/shared/images/misc/map.jpg?la=en
- The last one shows the most detail, but it's a smaller map.
- 6% of asteroids are said to be basaltic and orbit a little over 2AU from the Sun, just past Mars. Vesta is the biggest one. I see that some near-Earth asteroids are also basaltic, according to the following.

Physical Properties of Near-Earth Objects
http://www.lpi.usra.edu/books/AsteroidsIII/pdf/3048.pdf
General taxonomic and spectral links between the main belt and near-Earth populations have been proposed since the beginning of substantial studies of NEO properties (Mc-Fadden et al., 1984, 1985). Unique taxonomic classifications and mineralogic interpretations do show evidence for specific ties to main-belt sources. Most notable among these is the E-type object 3103 Eger, which appears both compositionally and dynamically related to the Hungaria region (high-inclination objects) of the inner asteroid belt (Gaffey et al., 1992). These authors also argue for a connection to the enstatite achondrite meteorites. Basaltic (pyroxene-rich) NEOs having V-type taxonomies and good spectral matches to both the howardite-eucrite-diogenite (HED) classes of meteorites and Vesta were found by Cruikshank et al. (1991). The existence of numerous main-belt asteroid fragments apparently excavated from Vesta (Binzel and Xu, 1993; Thomas et al., 1997) and the dynamic viability of their delivery into the inner solar system (Migliorini et al., 1997) provides an additional specific link between the main belt and NEOs. Perhaps the objects of most practical interest (from the hazard-assessment and resource-utilization points of view) among the NEOs are the M-types that may be highly metallic in composition (Tedesco and Gradie, 1987). The most notable case among NEOs, confirmed as metallic by virtue of its extremely high radar albedo, is (6178) 1986 DA (Ostro et al., 1991). Nevertheless, confirmed M-types and (presumably) highly differentiated, olivine-rich A-types are relatively rare among the NEOs.

How the Americas Formed
In the maps above notice that some of the flood basalts (colored red) occur at about 4 points on opposite shores of the Atlantic Ocean. It looks like these were caused by impacts that weakened that part of the supercontinent and then, when the biggest impact broke the supercontinent apart, the Americas were able to split off of Africa and Europe due to the fracturing. It looks like the flood basalts were pulled apart like chewing gum as the continental drift event occurred, since the basalts are stretched out along the lines of movement. One line connects Greenland to Iceland to Europe north of Britain; one connects Spain to Main; one maybe connects Panama and the Caribbean to west Africa near Senegal; and the last maybe connects southern Brazil to Angola, Africa.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:08 pm

Going off memory here but I used to have an article from New Geology(not sure of the publication title but it's been mentioned by others on this thread or forum - Australian maybe) which involved plasma. I think: pressure forced electrons(?) into micro-fissures in the rock; after sufficient build-up of electrons and or pressure the electrons turned into plasma or arced or did something which caused the earthquake thus releasing/relieving the pressure.

Sorry it's bit vague but if anyone knows the journal I'm talking about it might be possible to track down the article.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:15 am

GC, Steve Tassos had a theory like that, involving electric currents going through microfractures in rock, related apparently to earthquakes. Charles used the microfractures idea or maybe fact in his own models for earthquakes and for meteoric airbursts. But CC's model involves, uniquely I think, electric double layers in the Earth's interior and extending to the ionosphere, I think, as the source of electric currents, earthquakes and volcanism. It occurs to me that, if the rock is plastic starting about 7 miles down, then there shouldn't be any microfractures below that depth. I'll have to ask him about that.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:22 am

GC, Steve Tassos had a theory like that, involving electric currents going through microfractures in rock, related apparently to earthquakes. Charles used the microfractures idea or maybe fact in his own models for earthquakes and for meteoric airbursts. But CC's model involves, uniquely I think, electric double layers in the Earth's interior and extending to the ionosphere, I think, as the source of electric currents, earthquakes and volcanism. It occurs to me that, if the rock is plastic starting about 7 miles down, then there shouldn't be any microfractures below that depth. I'll have to ask him about that.

By the way, Mike Fischer just answered me saying he thinks the Siberian flood basalt is too extensive to be from basaltic asteroids. And I think he's saying that none of the flood basalts are from basaltic asteroids. But he doesn't give a strong case for that, IMO, so I'll hold with that theory until I find strong evidence against it. Maybe Gordon has such evidence. Like knowing the precise composition of the Earth's flood basalts and the basalt of the NEOs, versus the Earth's seafloor basalt, should provide evidence for or against.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:00 am

Lloyd wrote:CC's model involves, uniquely I think, electric double layers in the Earth's interior and extending to the ionosphere, I think, as the source of electric currents, earthquakes and volcanism. It occurs to me that, if the rock is plastic starting about 7 miles down, then there shouldn't be any microfractures below that depth. I'll have to ask him about that.

In my model, the primary charge separation is between a forced positive charge below the Moho (which averages 35 km below the surface), and a layer of negative charge above the Moho, made up of the electrons that were forced out, and thereafter are clinging to the positive layer below by the electric force. The Moho occurs at the threshold for forced charging, and varies depending on the chemical composition, since different chemicals have different ionization potentials. But the prime mover is gravitational loading, which creates the pressure for forced ionization. Then, as the gravitational loading shifts during the tidal cycle, the pressure threshold for forced ionization shifts. At high tide, the pressure at depth is relaxed, allowing charge recombination. At low tide, the pressure at depth is restored, forcing charge separation. The pressure threshold only shifts about 1 meter during the tidal cycle, but interestingly, since the tidal cycle is pretty much the same every time, it's the same meter that is getting forcibly ionized and then neutralized, 4 times a day. So there's a lot of ohmic heating in that layer. I'm convinced that the heat has built up to the point that the entire 1 meter has been converted to plasma. Thus the tectonic plates aren't moving on the basis of the plasticity of the rock, because there isn't the energy for that -- the plates are sliding on a frictionless layer of plasma.

Moving toward the topic at hand -- most of the electric current flows laterally, within the Moho itself. At low tide, when electrons at being expelled from rock at depth, there is also a demand for electrons 1/4 of the way around the globe, where it's high tide, and electron uptake can occur because the pressure was relaxed. So the electrons flow from the supply to the demand, following the plasma in the Moho. Since the conductivity of plasma is high, the current can flow easily, and ohmic heating helps maintain the high temperatures in the Moho. But 1/4 of the way around the globe is a long way to go, and if there is an alternate path for the current, at least some of it might go elsewhere. For example, the Earth's crust at the water table is an excellent conductor, and would make an excellent charge sink. If microfractures open up in the crust, the resistance goes way down, enabling vertical currents between the Moho and the surface water. Once a current starts flowing, ohmic heating increases the conductivity, making it the preferred channel for subsequent currents. In volcanoes, this is the heat source that sustains the temperatures in the magma tubes, which otherwise would freeze due to heat loss into the surrounding rock. In earthquakes, crustal buckling relaxes the pressure at depth, driving an electric current that neutralizes rock that had been forcibly charged. The buckling also opens up microfractures, which enables electric currents. And those two factors create a runaway feedback loop -- the electric current heats the crust, which increases the lateral pressure, which increases the crustal buckling, which drives a more robust electric current. If the runaway feedback loop creates pressure that exceeds the traction between two plates, a rupture occurs (i.e., an earthquake).

Now to finally address Lloyd's question -- if the crust is plastic below 7 miles (11.25 km), what keeps the microfractures open below 11.25 km? That would seem to be a problem if the Moho is 35 km below the surface, leaving 33.75 km of high-resistance rock that should prevent electric currents. But the Moho is only 5~10 km below the ocean floor, meaning that the microfractures can extend all of the way to the Moho. So we can expect more volcanoes and earthquakes in or near the ocean basins, which of course is the case. Inland volcanoes and earthquakes require rifts, where lateral tensile stress opens up the microfractures, at least enough to get the current flowing.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:50 am

Inland Earthquakes Etc
Charles, according to the first two maps below, it looks like earthquakes occur mostly at plate boundaries and along only some continental margins. The northern boundary of the Indian plate seems to be shown by earthquake locations in the area of the Himalayas. It seems that the collisions of plates formed some kind of vertical channels in such places that make earthquakes frequent in those regions. I suppose friction from plate collisions could melt such channels around plate margins. Would daily tides keep those melted channels molten and keep producing very small unnoticeable tremors that only progress to earthquakes rarely, as ratcheting progresses?

Cause of Plate Motions
In the third map the movement of tectonic plates is shown. The most earthquakes seem to occur where the plates are moving the fastest. Do you think the faster plates are being ratcheted? The Pacific plate is said to be moving 9 cm/yr to the northwest, running into or under east Asia. The Australian plate is moving nearly as fast to the northeast along with the Indian plate running under southeast Asia and maybe under the Pacific plate. The southeast Pacific plate is running under South America it seems. Do you think the Pacific plate could be ratcheting the Australian plate under it?

Global Earthquake Locations
http://www.bgs.ac.uk/discoveringGeology/hazards/earthquakes/images/dia_world_eqs.jpg

Global Earthquake Depths
http://www.physicalgeography.net/fundamentals/images/world_seismic1975_95.gif

Tectonic Plate Motions
http://xenon.colorado.edu/spotlight/kb/gps_tectonics/PearsonPrenticeHall.jpg

Deep Earthquakes
In your Earthquakes paper you said: "Buckling of the crust can affect the pressure theoretically all of the way to the core (though the difference will relax with the square of the distance from the buckle). The reduction in pressure allows electron uptake, motivating electric currents through micro-cracks in the rocks. Hence rock at a depth of 700 km might be too plastic for a rupture, but it might still be vulnerable to the explosive effects of electric currents."
Can you explain the mechanism of such explosions? Would they be thermonuclear? Or something else?
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby CharlesChandler » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:53 am

Lloyd wrote:Would daily tides keep those melted channels molten and keep producing very small unnoticeable tremors that only progress to earthquakes rarely, as ratcheting progresses?

In my model, a vertical channel that stays open isn't an earthquake in the making -- it's a volcano in the making. An earthquake takes a runaway feedback loop involving crustal buckling, fracturing, and electric currents driven by tidal forces.

Lloyd wrote:Do you think the faster plates are being ratcheted?

In my model, ratcheting occurs at subduction zones -- the overlying plate that buckled before the quake then lies back down, re-establishing traction with the lower plate. But then the upper plate starts to cool, which means that it's going to shrink, which means that it's going to drag the rest of the plate toward the subduction zone. Since the cooling occurs over a much longer period of time than the runaway feedback loop that created the lateral pressure just before the quake, the net force on the entire plate is a pull instead of a push or a break-even. This restores the momentum necessary to create the next quake, and might be responsible for the faster plate motions converging on subduction zones.

Of course, this "ratcheting" required a prime mover, so what initiated the plate motion in the first place? For that, I look to Shock Dynamics.

Lloyd wrote:Do you think the Pacific plate could be ratcheting the Australian plate under it?

I'm not sure.

Lloyd wrote:Can you explain the mechanism of such explosions? Would they be thermonuclear? Or something else?

Actually, I guess that "explosion" isn't the most accurate word here, because I don't think that anything is going on inside the plasma discharge channels to cause them to "explode", the way a chemical reaction in TNT produces an explosion. Rather, I'm just talking about hydrostatic pressure developed by ohmic heating. It gets its "explosive" nature due to the runaway feedback loop, which rapidly increases the hydrostatic pressure, faster than crustal buckling can accommodate the pressure, and resulting in a fault rupture. So it's like a TNT explosion, but without any internal processes leading up to it.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:37 am

The journal I was wittering about may have been this:
http://www.ncgt.org/newsletter.php
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby kevin » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:51 am

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:30 pm

Whew.
Lloyd, I think you over simplify some geologic processes, and that becomes confusing to the discussion, especially as I think you are trying to meld three different views without sufficient acknowledgment of what may be known from the "fourth" view of standard geology. I'll try to tackle just a few points here, because so many ideas you have are somewhat tangential rather than fundamental to how I see things:
1. I've spoken quite a bit about Fischer's Shock Dynamics, what I like and dislike about it, but I've repeatedly claimed that his timescale is too short, and I stick by that at this point. Yes I do certainly think there is plenty of horizontal pressure built in a scenario that has the continents "flying" apart [albeit perhaps in bursts] at 30-50 km per day!! The hair-growth paced movement claimed by standard geology makes sense only from the presumption of uniformitarianism, and even given that, doesn't explain the rocks we see in my opinion.
2. Charles' view of the plasmic Moho... at this point I can take it or leave it for several reasons, among which are: he's way smarter than me about working out all the details of why the Moho should become a frictionless plasma, gravitational loading, ohmic heating, the formation of a double-layer; and I'm highly cautious of thinking anything close to "frictionless" to the extent required by "shock dynamics"; and given what appears to be increasing evidence for mantle blocking [which may be working like the "ratcheting" you referred to], it may be unnecessary...
3. Charles' gravitational loading and ohmic heating do make a lot of sense, I'm just very uncertain as to how much would result from that process. The "not-quite prime" mover for me when it comes to explaining the formation of the present continents and their attendant [plate-]boundary ranges is horizontal pressures from separation at the rift zones which produces "bulldozing" vertical pressure zones forcing the gravitational loading, etc. Tidal pressures do play several parts in my scenario for the catastrophic deluge [see point 5], and I think Charles has been very thoughtful about this contribution, just may attribute more to it than do I.
3. For me, what needs a "prime mover" is the initial breakup of the supercontinent. Here I am not hesitant to invoke an astronomical body of planetary proportions coming into close enough contact with the earth to interact with it over a period of up to several weeks... I would claim that the tilt and precession of the earth's axis began at this time. Large asteroid-sized pieces accompanying that body would have crashed through the crust, and/or discharge events of proportions almost unimaginable today occurred, either way the crust [which would have been [not uniformly] thinner everywhere due to the isostasy of a lower topography continent, ie. one with no mountains as we know them today, see point 4 for more on that] was dramatically disrupted, and weaker areas opened with rebounding and eruptive events that began the spreading from these rift zones.
4. The tsunami action I envision would not have had to invoke km-high crests, but may have been a few hundred meters deep in places, since the hills of the primordial continent are not evidenced to have been more than a few hundred feet high. Also there is no evidence of or call for the continental surface all being covered at the same time. I believe there was probably three or four "bursts" of high water over about a five month period.
5. Tidal effects must have been tremendous. So in addition to seismic sea waves, I believe tidal action played a large part. I appreciate CC's tidal heating mechanism of the "solid" earth, just unsure where it would lead in terms of the electrification of the Moho. Local liquidization of the crust is something that intrigues me, due to my personal experience, just don't have enough technical expertise to speak to it at this time.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:02 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:The journal I was wittering about may have been this:
http://www.ncgt.org/newsletter.php

- Thanks, GC. Looks like the people who contribute to that journal accept conventional dating methods, so that's disappointing. But they do seem to have some original ideas. Earth expansion seems to be promoted by several of their authors, but some don't accept it. I don't either. Some of the authors favor Elec.Univ. ideas.
- I looked through the titles of the first 65 issues and put underscore marks before the ones that seem most interesting to me. I made a more readable Table of Contents for the journal at this link:
http://funday.createaforum.com/improve/1-18

Thanks, Kevin, too. I'll put your link in a bibliography for this thread. I just skimmed the page briefly so far.

Gordon, thanks for comments.
1 & 2. Did you notice that I was considering your ideas as possibly better than Mike's? It might help though if you can explain why continental movements could not have exceeded 50 km/da when fluidization apparently allows long runout landslides to reach 80 m/s or 290 km/hr. Anyway, after rethinking as I mentioned before, it seems now that the SD impact that split up the supercontinent could have perhaps more likely occurred in the late stages of the Great Flood event. Is it plausible that the earlier impacts produced the glass spherules etc that underlie the iridium layer and that the iridium was produced by the SD impact (during the flood)?

3. Could the weaker areas of the Americas section of the supercontinent have been weakened by 4 basaltic asteroid impacts, leaving behind the flood basalts in 4 areas of the Atlantic?

4. Wouldn't the tsunamis have needed to be higher than the sedimentary strata that they deposited on the supercontinent? It seems to me the nearly mile-thick sedimentary layer might have needed quite a bit more tsunami height than that of that layer, especially for megasequences that covered much of the supercontinent. Maybe that's why Baumgardener estimated 2.5 km high tsunamis. Aren't there 5 megasequences? And wouldn't each one have been deposited probably a few weeks apart?

5. What local liquidization of the crust intrigues you? It might intrigue some of us too.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:14 am

Rebuttal of Schoch from the Tusk team:

Comet Research Group responds to Robert Schoch

http://cosmictusk.com/comet-research-gr ... #more-9320
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