Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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432hz
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by 432hz » Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:49 pm

john666 wrote:
john666 wrote:-

So let us look at the topographical map of the world, to find out whether the American Cordillera and the Great Eurasian Mountain Ranges are parallel to each other, or not;

Image

No, definitely not parallel to each other.
American Cordillera has North-South orientation, while the Great Eurasian Mountain Ranges(Turkey,Iran,Afghanistan,Pakistan,Kazakhstan,Tibet,Mongolia,Siberia) have West-East orientation.

One single impact, whether it be a "Matter impact", or a "Energy impact", could not have created ALL THE VARIOUS CONTINENTAL SHAPES which we see when we look at the map of the world.

There had to be at the very least TWO MAJOR IMPACTS.
I don't know, if you look at the world like this at the time of the event, they could easily be part of the same arc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kL7qDeI05U

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by nick c » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:20 pm

The discussion of the theory of a geocentric universe is not on topic for this thread. Posts have been moved and those interested are asked to take the discussion here.

Lloyd
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:20 pm

Thanks much for keeping things on topic here, Nick.

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:01 pm

ONLINE BOOK PREP
I'm working on a paper or online book tentatively called A Millennium of Global Cataclysms 4-5k BP
at http://funday.createaforum.com/1-3 . For now the chapters are in reverse order, each in a different thread. Two threads are not part of the book. So far, I mostly just copied most of the discussion from this thread and reorganized it all to fit into the chapters listed. I don't intend to quote much of that discussion, but I want to use the discussion as an aid to writing the book. I only have about half of the book listed there so far. The rest will be mostly on myths, I think.

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:45 pm

Mammoths
Question for Gordon

The last mammoths died out just 3600 years ago
http://io9.gizmodo.com/5896262/the-last ... e-survived

That article says the last mammoths died out on Wrangel Island north of east Siberia 3600 years ago, whereas other mammoths had died out 6,000 years earlier. I think that's nonsense, because Wrangel Island was surely way too cold at that time to support any land animals. It's more likely that all of the mammoths died out about 4,400 years ago, when the supercontinent breakup event pushed the northern continents partly into the Arctic circle and floods drowned many of them, leaving some behind to die in a combination blizzard and dust storm with extreme cold temperature below -150F. I think the methods for dating the mammoths on the island and on the mainland are very inaccurate. Also, I think that island is where some mammoth tusks and bison horns were found to have micrometeorite fragments embedded in them.

Gordon, do you know how geologists came up with different dates for the Wrangel Island mammoths and the others?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:27 pm

Mammoth Datings
This article
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new ... -180955208
says: A tooth sample found on Wrangel Island is one of the most recent wooly mammoth remains found to date and is about 4,300 years old. That's better.

This site
https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index ... /2015/2018
says 5 different mammoths on Wrangel Island were dated to these ages:
1 mammoth: 4-5k
3 mammoths: 6-7k
1 Mammoth: 7-8k

Walt Brown & Kent Hovind apparently said different parts of the same mammoth elsewhere were dated to vastly different ages, over 10,000 years apart. This site
http://www.angelfire.com/alt2/digicam/mammoth.html
shows that the claim is false. They were different mammoths or even different animals.

Nonetheless, C14 dating apparently produces wrong ages, since it's highly likely that most sedimentary rock strata were deposited in a short time about 5,000 years ago and the remainder were deposited a few hundred years later.

Other Datings
Since dinosaur bones have been C14 dated to mostly between 23 and 36 thousand years ago (according to [url]http://.dinosaurc14ages.com/carbondating.htm[/url]), there must have been some C14 in the atmosphere at the time of the Great Flood, since their fossils are found in the flood strata. The amount of C14 in the pre-flood atmosphere may have been considerably less than in the post-flood atmosphere, which may explain the differences in C14 datings.

Here are some approximate C14 dates for various items:
(1) 38k “Charcoal” in Cretaceous clay
(2) 50k Carbonized wood in Cretaceous limestone
(3) 44k Coalified wood
(4) 43k Unfossilized wood, 36 m depth
(5) 3k Wood from mammoth burial site
(6) 5k Collagen from mammoth ivory
(7) 46k mummified wood
(8) 53k mummified wood
(9) 38k Mammoth CO3 of bioapatite
(10) 23k Mastodon CO3 of bioapatite
(11) 43k Lignite lens
(12) 45k Fern tree wood in Cretaceous clay
(13) 20k Soil surrounding Triceratops femur
(14) 46-52k Amber from Triceratops burial site strata
23k Rhinoceros
29k Rhinoceros
- Here's their main page: http://www.dinosaurc14ages.com

Dinosaurs & Man
This site mentions "Ashley bone beds of Charleston SC. containing Hadrosaur, mammoth, marine bones and human bones together" at http://genesispark/grave.htm . That link doesn't work for me and I don't see mention of that bone bed anywhere else online. This may refer to the same bone bed though: http://blog.everythingdinosaur.co.uk/bl ... dersi.html

Finally, I found this at http://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/fossils/graveyards:
One of the most fascinating fossil graveyard of all is located in the southern United States. The Ashley Beds is an enormous phosphate graveyard that contains mixed remains of man with land and sea animals, notably dinosaurs, pleisosaurs, whales, sharks, rhinos, horses, mastodons, mammoths, porpoises, elephants, deer, pigs, dogs, and sheep. This catalogue of fossils from the phosphate beds was given in the records of Major Edward Willis who displayed them at multiple expositions (Willis, “Fossils and Phosphate Specimens,” 1881.) Professor F.S. Holmes (paleontologist and curator of the College of Charleston’s Natural History Museum) described the fossil graveyard in a report to the Academy of Natural Sciences: “Remains of the hog, the horse and other animals of recent date, together with human bones mingled with the bones of the mastodon and extinct gigantic lizards.” There can be little doubt what extinct gigantic lizard he referenced for he pictured a hadrosaurus on the front of his 1870 book The Phosphate Rocks of South Carolina and captioned it: “Skeleton of a Fossil Lizard eighteen feet in Length.” Fossil Graveyard - Moreover, on page 31 he wrote, “It was in this Post-Pleiocene age, the period when the American Elephant, or Mammoth, the Mastodon, Rhinoceros, Megathereum, Hadrosaurus, and other gigantic quadrupeds roamed the Carolina forests, and repaired periodically to these Salt-lakes”… (p. 31.) The mixing of these remains was pell-mell throughout the roughly 40 square mile area of this deposit around Charleston, South Carolina. By one estimate, bones made up 65% of the extraordinary phosphate deposits in the region of the Ashley River basin before it was largely mined out. (Keener, J.C., The Garden of Eden and the Flood, 1901, p. 244.) Evolutionists have cast about trying to propose a credible mechanism for mixing creatures from Cretaceous to Holocene in this stratum, but none has been satisfactory and the matter has been expunged from current references to this site. (Watson, John Allen, Man, Dinosaurs, and Fossil Graveyard Photo, Mammals Together, 2001, p. 7.)

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by webolife » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:47 am

Lloyd wrote:Mammoths
Question for Gordon

The last mammoths died out just 3600 years ago
http://io9.gizmodo.com/5896262/the-last ... e-survived

That article says the last mammoths died out on Wrangel Island north of east Siberia 3600 years ago, whereas other mammoths had died out 6,000 years earlier. I think that's nonsense, because Wrangel Island was surely way too cold at that time to support any land animals. It's more likely that all of the mammoths died out about 4,400 years ago, when the supercontinent breakup event pushed the northern continents partly into the Arctic circle and floods drowned many of them, leaving some behind to die in a combination blizzard and dust storm with extreme cold temperature below -150F. I think the methods for dating the mammoths on the island and on the mainland are very inaccurate. Also, I think that island is where some mammoth tusks and bison horns were found to have micrometeorite fragments embedded in them.

Gordon, do you know how geologists came up with different dates for the Wrangel Island mammoths and the others?
I don't doubt the dates for the Wrangel mammoths; those dates are well within the good correlation window for C14. I am more inclined to doubt the popular 10,000 BP dates for the end of the glaciation, for reasons discussed extensively elsewhere. But when it comes down to it, there's not a huge amount of distinction or disagreement between a 3600 BP date and a 4000 BP date as far as dating methodologies go, and it's possible that atmospheric mixing is variable between lower and higher latitudes... Ingestion of C14 by these Wrangel mammoths may have been higher because they survived, whereas those that died earlier would have been ingesting less of it. This last claim is based on my frequently noted premise that prior to the cataclysm that resulted in the glacial period, C14 mixing in the lower atmosphere was at a much lower level. This lower level results in dates that measure increasingly too distant as you "rewind the tape" past about 5000 BP. To summarize, I would say that it is possible that the "older" mammoths died possibly just decades or a century or so before the Wrangel mammoths, and also conjecture that there may be a "micro-climate" type distinction in the atmospheric mixing of C14 at that high latitude.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:03 pm

Thanks, Gordon. I take it then that the conventional dating of the mainland mammoth fossils is done by C14 dating.

Strata Folding
Reading through earlier discussions in this thread, I noticed that your reason for supposing that continental drift, mountain-building and volcanism occurred during the Great Flood, instead of some decades or centuries later, seems to be that you think the rock strata that were folded in mountain formation could only have been folded without cracking etc when the sediments were still wet and soft. But someone else, I think it was Charles Chandler, said those strata were likely folded without cracking by heat. Have you considered that possibility? Do you know how to test which process is likely correct? Do you know what temperatures hard strata would need to reach in order to fold that way? The Kola borehole is 7 miles deep and the drilling was quit because the rock became too plastic and kept closing in on the drill pipe. I guess that was due to a combination of the heat and pressure. The strata in mountains would be under much less pressure, so they would probably require more heat to bend, I suppose, than what's needed 7 miles deep. Actually, come to think of it, the strata would have been under a lot of horizontal pressure due to the initial impact and then due to collision with the Pacific plate or the East Pacific Rise. What do you think? Are there ways to tell how hot or wet the strata were when they folded?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:47 pm

Lloyd (or anyone else),
Am I correct in thinking that rock can become plastic during earthquakes? If so, then could this be third option along with 'fresh' and heat?
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by webolife » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:58 pm

How hot or wet, ie. at what stage in the compaction/cementation process were the strata at the time they were being folded into mountains?

I rephrase the question because the answer depends upon the paradigm. Mine [and yours] is a catastrophic earth history, rather than the uniformitarian view. Therefore, in order to bend the strata in short order, rather than millions of years, requires the layers be not fully formed, ie. only partly lithified. The amount of heat or pressure applied depends on this hardening question. Pressure, as you noticed, is applied horizontally as well as vertically, as soon as the collision and frictional pressures begin to vertically distort the initally horizontal strata, additional gravitational pressure kicks in. Then heat from melting --> magma formation, intrusion and country rock metamorphism starts to take place. Another question to ask would be: To what degree might other factors play a part in the plasticizing of rock, such as seismic waves and telluric currents...

This same question of the hardening of the rocks applies to the catastrophic carving of canyons, eg. the Grand Canyon, as well.

Now, is there a way to determine exactly how hard or how hot or wet the sediments were at any particular stage during the deluge period. Maybe not. It's beyond my level of understanding at this point, anyway. :o

Just saw Grey Cloud's earthquake comment. Looks like GC and I are in the vibe! ;)
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by GaryN » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:45 pm

In a fully electric universe, more appropriate mechanisms should be considered. Stratification can also be produced by microwaves, when water is present, which it will be during such catastrophic events. Around 24 Ghz should be the most effective for dielectric heating I think, as it would be effective down to perhaps 3 or 4 kilometres, and could well explain the existence of the Deccan and Siberian and other traps, where no source vents for the huge volumes of material present have been identified. Again, we must think BIG, really big.

Basalt Melting by Localized-Microwave Thermal-Runaway Instability
This paper presents an experimental and theoretical study of the thermal-runaway instability induced by localized microwaves in basalt stones. This effect leads to the inner melting of the basalt core, and further to its eruption similarly to a volcanic burst. The experiments are conducted in a single-mode cavity at 2.45 GHz, 0.9 kW. The microwave-induced miniature volcano exhibits hotspots, bursts and eruption of lava, and solidification of lava flows to volcanic glass (obsidian), similarly to real volcanic phenomena. The numerical simulation, taking into account the temperature dependence of the basalt properties, is compared to the experimental measurements. The results may lead to the development of new means for mining and construction in basalt, as well as for demonstrating volcanic phenomena in laboratories, schools and museums.
https://www.eng.tau.ac.il/~jerby/Jerby_ ... oc_PDF.pdf

It must be considered that the planets and moons are born of purely electro-magnetic processes, and that they are periodically resurfaced by such forces.
Am I going a little overboard with the Electric Universe idea, ya think? :D
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:35 pm

KISS/Occam's Razor: We know from 'everyday' experience that quakes can make rock act like a liquid in a relatively short time. We have no direct experience of that amount of heat over such a large area (and over what timescale?).
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:17 pm

How to Bend Rock Strata
Okay, Gary on microwaves & GC & Gordon on earthquakes, I looked up microwave effects and earthquake ground waves etc. GC, the time scale for orogenesis in my model is a few hours and in Gordon's a few weeks or months, I believe. Gary, what would produce the microwaves?

Microwaves drill ceramics
http://www.nature.com/news/2002/021018/ ... 14-11.html
Silent, dust-free drill melts mini-holes in glass and concrete.
A microwave drill can bore through materials such as concrete and glass, silently and without creating dust. By heating a target to nearly 2,000 ºC, the microwaves soften it up enough for a small rod to be pushed through.
... the microwave drill costs little more than a mechanical one.
... The drill bit is a needle-like antenna that emits intense microwave radiation. The microwaves create a hot spot around the bit, melting or softening the material so that the bit can be pushed in.
... the device works fine on rocks and concrete. In fact, the heat may even strengthen holes' walls in ceramics by welding together the fine grains in the material.


Video: Gigawatt Microwaves Can Cause Earthquakes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB6YJVc5OiA

Best Video of Earthquake Ground Waves So Far, doesn't say where, posted 2006
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19fMs633Td4

Video: Aerial View of Ground Waves Even with Small Quakes
http://blogs.agu.org/tremblingearth/201 ... long-beach

Charles on Strata Elasticity
Charles Chandler's Earthquakes paper says at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=9981
... One of the major mysteries about earthquakes is that they produce a series of waves, sometimes lasting for minutes. The inelastic rock shouldn't oscillate like this. As proof, an experiment was once conducted, involving the detonation of a 1 megaton nuclear bomb, 1 km below the surface. This successfully caused a surface fault about 1.2 km long. But it did not create a series of seismic waves. The second wave had only a small fraction of the energy of the initial shock front, and the elastic reverberations died out quite quickly.20 Without elasticity, what causes sustained seismic waves?
- In an EM context, we'd call this a form of sputtering. The electric currents flowing through microfractures turn them into plasma discharge channels. These can get very hot, very fast, and the pressure can quickly become enormous, and this is the force that ultimately causes the rupture. (In other words, with its low thermal conductivity, the crust is not subjected to general ohmic heating, resulting in expansion. Rather, extreme heat in micro-channels generates the hydrostatic pressure.) The amount of force that this can generate should not be underestimated. Consider the following report of what one lightning strike did to a large chunk of rock.21:150,22:72
- In Fetlar, one of the Shetland Islands, a solid mass of rock 32.0 m long, 3.0 m broad, and in some places more than 1.2 m high, was in an instant torn from its bed by lightning and broken into three large and several small fragments... [One fragment], 8.5 m long, 5.2 m broad, and 1.5 m in thickness, was hurled across a high point of rock to a distance of 46 m. Another broken mass, about 12.2 m long, was thrown still farther, but in the same direction, and quite into the sea...."
- This is an unusual occurrence, and understandably so, considering the normal resistance of granite. Clearly the discharge found its way through the rock by following fractures. And though there is no theoretical limit to the amount of ohmic heating that can be applied to matter, there is no back-pressure on the current — conductivity increases with temperature. Once the current found a way through the rock, the current and the pressure on the surrounding rock increased together, eventually exceeding the tensile strength of the rock.


Charles might have to explain the elasticity of rock strata in earthquake waves a little more clearly. I think during plate collisions that lead to strata folding and mountain formation, there must be a lot of piezoelectricity, but also vertical telluric currents that spawn earthquakes and volcanism as Charles explains. And electric tidal forces also seem likely involved and the electric charges on asteroids and meteors. So the EM heating and pressure that Charles describes above seem possibly capable of bending solid rock strata when under horizontal pressure.

Here's where Charles and I were discussing earthquakes a little 4 years ago, mainly regarding Tassos' findings on microfractures for electric discharges, which led to Charles' model: http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/v ... =60#p72730

Any comments, folks?

Gordon, do you agree that, if heat, pressure etc could bend rock strata, that continental drift and orogenesis could have occurred decades to centuries after the Great Flood, allowing time for mammoths and other mammals to repopulate before the next cataclysm that produced the weaker Cenozoic rock strata?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by seasmith » Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:04 pm

Lloyd wrote:... lot of piezoelectricity, but also vertical telluric currents that spawn earthquakes and volcanism as Charles explains. And electric tidal forces also seem likely involved and the electric charges on asteroids and meteors. So the EM heating and pressure...
Yes, Piezoelectricity is the right term for the naturally reversible material transform:
shock-crystal deformation-electric charge or
electric charge-shock-crystal deform.
It's common practice at millimeter scale where a crystal is used as a seismic probe or an electric signal is transformed by a crystal.

What the OP suggests is to an exponent of scale. A shock so powerful that whole crustal partitions (including layering) vibrate violently and instead of slow "heating and pressure", there is an impulsive 'shock', producing heat times pressure HxP.
The jolted material doesn't have time for gradual phase-change and crystallization (slower = smaller crystal size);
instead it is a direct transition, similar to ablation from solid to gas phase, but here the Coulombic reaction is from solid (rock layers) into liquid / gas phases.
Sudden but temporary of course because the 'shock waves' pass at speed.

The question then is not feasibility, but more specifically what is the intensity of strike or spark required for a phase shift,
and where did all those layers come from?
;)

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:12 am

Lloyd wrote:Charles might have to explain the elasticity of rock strata in earthquake waves a little more clearly.
I quoted a study that found the rock to be inelastic, meaning that a series of earthquake waves cannot be considered elastic reverberations. So I'm saying that each earthquake wave has its own electro-mechanical energy source -- a new spark each time.

But I don't see how that relates to folded strata.

It's well known that rock at depth is plastic; it isn't well known why. Part of my model includes plasticity at depth due to forced ionization -- if you put enough pressure on the rock, electrons get expelled, which weakens the crystal lattice, enabling plasticity. This figures significantly in several aspects of the model.

But I still think that it takes more than just plasticity to get folded strata -- you still need a lateral force, and the onset has to be faster than other forms of compensation could occur. So I think that this is a good case for a catastrophic event. I don't buy into every tenet of the Shock Dynamics model, but I think that Fischer has the right basic idea -- mountain building and folded strata cannot be the result of very slow processes.
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