Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

[Brigit Bara]

Yes, it is Romanian. Who better to retrieve their own history? If I posted the wrong one, he produced one with subtitles.

"There is a lot of nationalistic stuff coming out of SE Europe lately. Doesn't mean the claims aren't true - just approach with salt cellar in hand."

All history must be taken with a grain of salt. But better salt from the people who live there than these outright falsehoods from UNESCO and the extreme biases introduced by Greece and Rome. Although, Terry Jones is fond of the Classical Greeks you will find.

[Brigit Bara]

'Important if true” was the phrase that the 19th-century writer and historian Alexander Kinglake wanted to see engraved above church doors. It rings loud in the ears as one reads the latest book by Graham Robb, a biographer and historian of distinction whose new work, if everything in it proves to be correct, will blow apart two millennia of thinking about Iron Age Britain and Europe and put several scientific discoveries back by centuries.

Viewed in this light, the ancient texts of the Italian conquerors begin to reveal sidelong secrets about the people they supplanted. Piece by piece, there emerges a map of the ancient world constructed along precise celestial lines: a huge network of meridians and solar axes that served as the blueprint for the Celtic colonisation of Europe, dictated the placement of its settlements and places of worship, and was then almost wholly wiped from history. We are, to put it mildly, unused to thinking like this about the Celts, whose language is defunct and whose reputation was comprehensively rewritten by those who succeeded them.

From Grey Cloud's link:
The Ancient Paths: Discovering the Lost Map of Celtic Europe, review
Tim Martin has his eyes opened by an enthralling new history that argues that Druids created a sophisticated ancient society to rival the Romans

[Brigit Bara]

And the historians all have this clever way they date everything using Greek references.

It's perfectly self-fulfilling prophecy, because then they can say the other cultures were emulating and borrowing from the Greeks.

The fact is, they date everything produced by another culture so that it follows after what the Greeks were producing.

[seasmith]

BB wrote:

All history must be taken with a grain of salt. But better salt from the people who live there than these outright falsehoods from UNESCO and the extreme biases introduced by Greece and Rome.

Sounds like you've taken history with a dollop of vitriol.


Unless one can state confidently how long Was that spell of time, between the Adam and the (final) Deluge, we will just have to accept That history as mystery.
Safe to say that humanity had by then, pretty much spread out to the four corners of the globe.

After the bibical flood, the human strata and migrations become simple to comprehend.
Indo-european, Indo-aryan, Mediterranean, Dravidic, Altaic, etc, it doesn't matter.
Civilizations grew up on cows milk, goats milk or mares milk. After descending from the Garden, people also grew grains, and henceforth the Celts grew up on beer and whiskey.
Any questions ?


£always the odd ones out, the Druids chose mushrooms...

[Grey Cloud]

May I suggest rather than derail Lloyds thread we discuss things ancient here:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... &start=330

[Brigit Bara]

I would be delighted to join you on the other thread to discuss a few things in detail. Thank you for the link, Grey Cloud.

It is true that I work from a different historical framework. It is impossible to study history without one. None of us should or would claim to be objective observers who merely draw conclusions after all of the data is in. The views a researcher holds gives him his passion and willingness to look at enormous amounts of information. It is the love of the theory that motivates individuals. [This is also the greatest weakness and the ultimate downfall of most research.] The best we can do is be open about the framework we have. This applies to science, history, economics, and many other disciplines. Popper made this sensible argument.

But at no time have I wasted any time on the thread by refuting theory with theory. I have offered physical evidence to support statements, arguments and refutations. The dendritic scarring on earth shows that water was very possibly covering the earth at the time of the electrical catastrophes between planets, for example. And so I cannot accept any charge of derailing the thread, because I have offered physical evidence for "Ancient Global Cataclysm."

What you all are accustomed to calling the "Dark Age" is what I term the pre-classical world. You say that it does not exist or should be shortened by centuries. I say that it does not exist because it was really a "Bright Age."

Some of the supporting scholarship is:

• Terry Jones, The Barbarians

• Possibly this book:

"If nothing else, The Ancient Paths creates a new respect for the ancient Gauls, and the ancient Britons. Whatever Caesar may have said, they weren't all woad and moustaches." T.y. grey cloud!

• The work on Thrace by the Romanians as well.

• The Cucuteni Culture of the Danube Valley

The evidence for an advanced "Old Europe" must also be considered if one wishes to use a timeline for global cataclysms. "For 1,500 years, starting earlier than 5000 B.C., they farmed and built sizable towns, a few with as many as 2,000 dwellings. They mastered large-scale copper smelting, the new technology of the age. Their graves held an impressive array of exquisite headdresses and necklaces and, in one cemetery, the earliest major assemblage of gold artifacts to be found anywhere in the world."

[Lloyd]

Shamash as Saturn

Grey Cloud said:
- ... Here's piece of tablet X: The tavern keeper replied to Gilgamesh: "Not from the beginning of time has anyone ever been able to go across the glittering sea. Shamash alone, the Sun, crosses the sea.
- So much for Shamash = a stationary Saturn. Just to be clear context-wise, the 'sea' here is the sky/heavens - the same as Homer's 'wine-dark sea'.

In reply I got the following quotes in blue from http://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sear ... oom_query=. I'll comment at the end.

Shamash and Sin [SIS C&C Workshop]
"Dwardu Cardona has pointed out that a common entry in Babylonian astrological reports was 'when Shamash stands in the halo of Sin'" [Thus Sin could not have been the Moon.] ... Shamash is, or was, Saturn for the Assyro-Babylonians themselves who reported it, more than once, in the very astrological texts mentioned above in no uncertain terms. As they had it written, '( Mul) Lu-Bat Sag-Us Mul (il) Samas Su-u', which translates as 'the planet Saturn is Shamash' or 'Shamash is the planet Saturn'.... Granted, it is also stated that Shamash was the Sun, but there is no doubt that Shamash was first and foremost Saturn. This can be ascertained because, when the Sun was meant, the astrologers thought it necessary to insert a gloss in their texts to that effect. The gloss was made to indicate "Samse u-mi"-- i.e. "Samas of the day." (49)

The Ship of Heaven [Aeon Journal]
[There was] the popular belief that the sun god travels nightly in "the ship of the new moon." The specific character of the ship as a crescent and the relationship of the crescent to the sun god is well illustrated by the Sumerian and Babylonian Sin, probably the most familiar crescent-divinity in the ancient world. While Sin is titled Udsar, "the crescent," he is also proclaimed to be "the shining bark of the heavens" [bark = boat].(20) In view of the acknowledged identity of Saturn as the sun god, it is significant that in numerous Mesopotamian illustrations of the Sin-Crescent, the sun is shown resting in the center of its embrace.(21) [The Sun cannot be seen inside the Moon's crescent.] And to this fact one can add the expert opinion of Peter Jensen, Alfred Jeremias and others that the Sin-crescent was considered as an aspect of Saturn. (22) Of course the usual identification of the crescent-ship with the Moon is due to one fact alone: the new Moon is the only crescent familiar to the modern age. ... The god Enki (translated by the Greeks as Kronos/Saturn) rides "the ship of the antelope of the Apsu" [cosmic ocean]. ... In fact, Saturn's ship, called the Magur-boat and esteemed as the "Great Boat of Heaven," ... is one of the more frequently-depicted images in Mesopotamian art....

Thoth Vol. III, No. 17 Dec 15, 1999 [Thoth Website]
When sailing in his ship, or boat, Ra is said to move down at dawn, and 'upstream' at night, contrary to what we see the Sun doing in our sky. How, then, can mythologists continue to perpetuate the lie that the Egyptian Ra was a personification of the Sun?

The Crescent II [The Saturn Myth] [Books]
THE CRESCENT-SHIP -- All ancient sun gods sail in a celestial ship. In the oldest ritual the ship appears as a crescent revolving around the circle of the great god's dwelling, while the god himself remains stationary. The ship's "mooring post" (and, by extension, its "mast") is the cosmic mountain. One of Saturn's most extraordinary possessions is the ark of heaven. Saturn is "literally represented as sailing over the ocean in a ship," remarks Faber.
...
This identity of the ship's mast and the axis-pillar is also noted by Coomaraswamy, who relates an introductory verse of the Dasakumaccrita, listing "the mast of the ship of the earth" as an aspect of "the axis of the universe." In the construction of Hindu stupas the universe axis was represented by a central finial often extending upward to an impressive height. The column bore the title "sky-scraping" yasti, or "mast." (89) It is noteworthy also that the Sumerian dimgal, the "mooring post" or "binding post," often receives the translation "ship's mast." (90) In our world a mast and a mooring post are wholly distinct, but in the symbolism of the cosmic ship and mountain they are strictly synonymous, as we should expect. By understanding the ship's mast as an extension of the cosmic mountain one perceives a deeper meaning in the steps which rise in the centre of the Egyptian boat illustrated below (fig. 97).

The Ship of Heaven [Aeon Journal]
Mount as Mooring Post. Several scholars, among them Uno Holmberg and Mircea Eliade, have observed the widespread tradition wherein the world pillar or world mountain appears as the Binding Post, Tethering Post or Hitching Post to which the revolving celestial lights are bound. (79) In the symbolism of the cosmic ship there is an apparently similar theme -- a celestial "Mooring Post" or "Great Mooring Post," and this our model would identify as the same cosmic column. An important level of evidence is provided by the Sumerian dimgal (Babylonian tarkullu) and the Egyptian mena or menat, both of which may be translated either as the "Binding Post" or "Mooring Post."

Mons Veneris [Aeon Journal]
That the mountain of sunrise is not simply a metaphor for the eastern horizon or a terrestrial mountain to the east of Sumer is readily demonstrable. For one thing, the mountain of sunrise also doubles as the mountain of sunset. This peculiar aspect of ancient cosmology is apparent in the following passage from the Gilgamesh Epic: "The name of the mountain is Mashu ... Which every day keeps watch over the rising and setting of the sun, Whose peaks reach as high as the 'banks of heaven', And whose breast reaches down to the underworld." (30) Under the current arrangement of the solar system, needless to say, it is not possible for the Sun to both rise and set over the same terrestrial mountain. Consequently, some scholars have sought to find fault with Heidel's literal translation....

Summary: Sin was the bright crescent of Saturn, which appeared to turn around Saturn as Earth rotated. The bright crescent was imagined as a ship in which Saturn sat. Saturn was the only passenger in this ship. So Saturn was the only one who "crossed the sea" around Saturn. The Sun doesn't appear to ride in a crescent ship through the sky. And other planets appear to follow the same course through the sky that the Sun follows, so the Sun could not be said to be the only one who "crosses the sea".

[Grey Cloud]

Who are the Sumerians, Akkadians and Babylonians to argue in the face of Cardona?
I notice that this little comfort zone hides behind a pay-wall.

[Lloyd]

Grey Cloud, you apparently didn't click on the link I posted. It's http://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sear ... oom_query=. If you use the search box there, you can find quotes on whatever search term you use. That's what I did. I didn't pay to get any of the quotes above.

[Grey Cloud]

Grey Cloud, you apparently didn't click on the link I posted. It's http://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sear ... oom_query=. If you use the search box there, you can find quotes on whatever search term you use. That's what I did. I didn't pay to get any of the quotes above.

Lloyd,
I searched the site using the term 'Shamash'. Of the 25 hits on the first page 21 were behind a pay-wall. The exceptions were links to external sites such as this one and Cochrane's. The hits themselves consist each of a partial paragraph with little or no context. Reading these does not constitute anything close to scholarship in my book.

[Brigit Bara]

Inresponse to Lloyd, in which he asserts that Israelites worshiped Saturn.

Certainly there were episodes when the Israelites worshiped the gods of the surrounding people. In fact, Moses' coffee was not even cold when it first happened:


Boogie Nights


The Gold Calf
32 Now when the people saw that Moses delayed coming down from the mountain, the people gathered together to Aaron, and said to him, “Come, make us gods that shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.”

2 And Aaron said to them, “Break off the golden earrings which are in the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me.” 3 So all the people broke off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them to Aaron. 4 And he received the gold from their hand, and he fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made a molded calf.

Then they said, “This is your god, O Israel, that brought you out of the land of Egypt!”

...15 And Moses turned and went down from the mountain, and the two tablets of the Testimony were in his hand. The tablets were written on both sides; on the one side and on the other they were written. 16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

17 And when Joshua heard the noise of the people as they shouted, he said to Moses, “There is a noise of war in the camp.”

18 But he said:

“It is not the noise of the shout of victory,
Nor the noise of the cry of defeat,
But the sound of singing I hear.”

19 So it was, as soon as he came near the camp, that he saw the calf and the dancing. So Moses’ anger became hot, and he cast the tablets out of his hands and broke them at the foot of the mountain. 20 Then he took the calf which they had made, burned it in the fire, and ground it to powder; and he scattered it on the water and made the children of Israel drink it.

I chose that picture because it had a crescent pointed upward and a disk. In fact, if you would like you can name any god from Ashtaroth to Dagon to Molech to Baal-Z and I will find you an instance when the people were adoring and performing rituals to it. But it is a failing of the people, and is not even conceivable to say that God Himself is therefore Saturn. The entire history of the Israelites from the departure from Egypt to their destruction and removal to Babylon is about their difficulty with living amongst people who worshiped idols, the stars, the moon, the sun, and all the host of heaven. They were to live good lives and trust in the One who cannot be seen.

[Brigit Bara]

Examples include Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greece and Rome. They are shown as brutal beasts in the scripture, trampling everything, and made up of the worst of the conquered areas, like a chimera. ~BB

The Greeks never had an empire, they didn't even have a Greece, just load of independent city-states (and the Macedonian empire lasted about 5 minutes after the death of Alexander and doesn't feature in the OT or NT. (does it?)). These empires are given a bad press in the OT because it was the people of the OT who were getting it in the neck. ~Grey Cloud

The Greek Empire



The Greek Empire was swiftly formed out of the former Persian Empire and then some. The language and culture was Greek, and Hellenization was aggressively enforced politically, religiously, linguistically, economically and culturally. Greek temples and palaces were placed over the top of the existing temples, the gods and goddesses were replaced with "equivalent" Greek gods and goddesses. And besides all of that the smart set, businessmen and youths thought it was just trendy to go to baths and wear a toga.

oh please

There were several notable countries and cities who bravely fought off the Greeks and Hellenization in Anatolia and in Judea. For example, the Parthians who were said to be a Scythian people in a province of NE Iran, overthrew the Seleucid rule. The uprising was led by Arsaces sometime after 250 BC.

When Seleucus II tried to regain his province in 228 BC, he was defeated by Arsaces, whose military feats in the area were establishing what would be the Arsacid dynasty.

Next example...

[Brigit Bara]

Antiochus IV Epiphanes

Seleucid king who tried to be to do away with the Jewish religion and, among other things, ordered a small pagan altar set up on top of the great altar outside the temple in Jerusalem and a pagan sacrifice (a pig, to the Jews an unclean animal)

to be offered to Zeus Ouranios (the heavenly Zeus, identified with Baal Shamayim, the "lord of the heavens," with whom the Jewish God was henceforth to be identified)

This terrible outrage (the abomination that "makes desolate" in Daniel 9:27) led to the Maccabean war of independence as was never forgotten by the Jewish people.
~Encyclopedia Britannica 1959

The policy of making gods of the people into equivalents with Zeus etc. has been carried out before, esp. with the people of Judea. It has been a means of cultural assimilation and destruction used by the Greeks and Romans both. Both attempted to wipe out the books of the Bible and both placed their idols in the temple.


(The Feast of the Dedication commemorating these events is the celebration today known as Hanukkah. This is mentioned in the New Testament, in John 10 22.)

[Brigit Bara]

These empires are given a bad press in the OT because it was the people of the OT who were getting it in the neck.

If you have an Encyclopedia set you enjoy (may I recommend Americana, which I used for the quote above) pick it up and read the entries under Ptolemy. You have never seen a more wretched succession of Greek despots.

They were no more reliable in writing history than they were in governing these places.

[Grey Cloud]

Brigit,
That was NOT a Greek empire. It was 3 Macedonian empires (Lysimachus had the Greek and mainland side). The Diadochi promptly set to fighting each other. The Parthians did not resist Hellenisation, they invaded the area later on (they were Romes main enemy in the East). The gods and goddesses were not replaced - Jews and later the Christians introduced religious intolerance. There were temples and shrines to various foreign divinities in Greece. Greeks didn't wear togas and didn't have bath-houses (both Roman). The Greeks introduced gymnasiums and theatres. They also built the library, museum and university at Alexandria (open to anyone male or female) and made Damascus one of the centres of learning in the world. Damascus continued to function as such after the Christians (Justinians edicts) closed down all the pagan temples, philosophy schools and other places of learning. The Roman church had no power in the East otherwise Damascus would have gone the same way as Athens and Alexandria.
You need to let go of this obsession with idols. These 'pagans' worshipped divinities who lived 'on high' the same as (everyone else's gods and goddesses. You are happy citing propaganda from the bible which denigrates pagan religions with one breath then in the next, (erroneously) castigating the Greeks for supposedly doing the same.

(Just spotted the second installment)

Antiochus IV Epiphanes is one ruler, the seventh of the Seleucid empire. It doesn't make it evidence for some sort of ethnic-cleansing policy of the Greeks/Macedonians. The Romans got the hump with the Jews because the Jews wouldn't recognise Roman gods etc (deified emperors mostly).
I thought we were supposed to be doing this in the other thread.

(Just spotted the third installment)
Which Ptolemy are you talking about? I'm not claiming any of them were angels, I'm disputing your generalisations and false statements. Name me a king, emperor or president who was an all-round nice guy and good egg.

I'm going to click the 'submit' button really fast to see if I can get a post in edgewise.