Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:51 pm

Apologies if I've already posted this:
Again, a number of parallels to the song can be found in Greek,
more specifically Hesiodic, mythological tradition, in which the
serpent monster Typhoeus rises up against Zeus after the latter’s
defeat of the Titans and tries to seize his throne from him. Closer still
is the parallel between Ullikummi and Typhoeus/Typhon preserved
in a later Greek tradition in which Typhon like Ullikummi grows to
such a towering height that he reaches the heavens.24 And most
significantly the Teshub–Ullikummi and Zeus–Typhon conflicts are
fought out in the same location, Mt Hazzi/Kasios on the coast of
northern Syria.
Taken from Trevor Bryce. Life and Society in the Hittite World. 2002. p227
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:08 pm

BB wrote:

What is your proposed specific source/cause, of the catastrophe you mention ?
-s

"Now here is an example of planetary catastrophe which needs no professional analyst, and has survived through 3500 years." -BB



Seasmith, what I meant, and what I am attempting to illustrate over multiple posts, is that the myths, legends, and sacred texts do not require a professional trained psychoanalyst to read planetary instability between the lines. The Zarathustrians and others have described this in plain language. -BB


psychoanalyst ??


So last millennium. What i am attempting to ask, "over multiple posts", is for Your Interpretation, as a trained sociologist. What did cause the widespread dispersions and human migrations toward the end of the Bronze Age, as cited by thee.
Any body can quote scripture, understanding them is something else.
;)
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Roshi » Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:43 am

I was thinking that the Richat structure could be the evidence for ancient electrical discharge between Earth and another body, and it was the "pillar of smoke" followed by the Jews when leaving Egypt. But it's not in the right direction.

Now I found something else, the legend of St. George and the dragon he slew in Beirut:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_George
Saint George is something of an exception among saints and legends, in that he is known and revered by Muslims, while being venerated by Christians throughout the Middle East, from Egypt to Asia Minor.[39] His stature in these regions derives from the fact that his figure has become somewhat of a composite character mixing elements from Biblical, Quranic, and folkloric sources, at times being the partially contrapositive of Al-Khidr.[39] He is said to have killed a dragon near the sea in Beirut, for which a Saint George Bay was built under his name. At the beginning of the 20th century, Arab Christian women visited his shrine in the area to pray for him.[39]


The fact that he is worshiped in Islam as well, means there was an event witnessed by more people, and Beirut is kind of in the right direction coming from Egypt to Canaan.

Gilgamesh is another interesting story:
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/epic-of-gilgamesh.html
He smote the ground and faced the monster. At their feet, the earth gave way, and in their throes they broke the mountains of Sirion and Lebanon. The very clouds turned black and rained death upon them all. Against Humbaba Shamash unleashed all the winds, the winds of the south, north, east, and west, the hurricane, the tempest, the typhoon, the gale, the frost-wind, and the devil-wind, the blast and counterblast, and the tornado. The thirteen winds darkened the face of Humbaba so that Gilgamesh could reach him with his weapons.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:15 pm

Roshi,
A Christian legend from a thousand years after the event and a Sumerian epic from a thousand years before the event - you may be on to something there. :lol:
The Epic of Gilgamesh in indeed an interesting read - I've read it a couple of times. St. Judder is the patron saint of my country for some bizarre reason.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:23 pm

Just to muddy the waters a bit ;) , here is part of the prologue to the XI tablet version of the Epic of Gilgamesh:
He who saw the Deep, the country's foundation.
[who] knew .. , was wise in all matters!
[Gilgamesh, who] saw the Deep, the country's
foundation,
[who] knew .. , was wise in all matters!
[He] ... everywhere ...
and [learnt] of everything the sum of wisdom.
He saw what was secret, discovered what was hidden,
he brought back a tale of before the Deluge.
He came a far road, was weary, found peace,
and set all his labours on a tablet of stone.
He built the rampart of Uruk-the-Sheepfold,
of holy Eanna, the sacred storehouse.
See its wall like a strand of wool,
view its parapet that none could copy!
Take the stairway of a bygone era.
draw near to Eanna, the seat of Ishtar the goddess,
that no later king could ever copy!
Climb Uruk's wall and walk back and forth!
Survey its foundations, examine the brickwork!
Were its bricks not fired in an oven?
Did the Seven Sages not lay its foundations?
Taken from: The Development and Meaning of the Epic of Gilgamesh: An Interpretive Essay, Tzvi Abusch. Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 121, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 2001), pp. 614-622
Note also the uses of wise, wisdom, hidden, secret and last but by no means least, the Seven Sages.

Here's piece of tablet X:
The tavern keeper replied to Gilgamesh:
"Not from the beginning of time has anyone ever
been able to go across the glittering sea.
Shamash alone, the Sun, crosses the sea.
So much for Shamash = a stationary Saturn. Just to be clear context-wise, the 'sea' here is the sky/heavens - the same as Homer's 'wine-dark sea'.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
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The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:42 pm

seasmith says,
What did cause the widespread dispersions and human migrations toward the end of the Bronze Age, as cited by thee.


I will place my cards on the table.

The view I hold and my primary assumption on migration is that it is natural and beneficial. There had been a catastrophic flood (with real water) and the survivors were few. During the flood, based on the pattern of electrical scarring on the earth, I believe there were planetary-scale plasma discharges which laced the earth with filamentary scars and suberranean dendritic veins of ores, etc.. The survivors at first were living together. But as Josephus put it, "Nimrod was tyranizing in the plain of Shinar." There was an effort to build a massive structure immune to disaster. This required, I think, slave labor and central planning of every single man and woman's life for the effort. They were working for the Man in the Tower.

Mercury passed by. The tower is turned into a nice pretty Richat structure (: The em pulses from this interaction have extraordinary effects on the auditory and linguistic areas of the brain. The rapid oscillations of the interactions between the magnetospheres of the earth and interloper alter speech centers of the cerebral cortex. The people must now migrate, which is God's will in the first place.

Migration to Europe, NAmerica, SAmerica, Australia, China and Japan are slow. I do not have any idea how and when but would like to know more. This is where I think comparative mythology as taught by Dave Talbott has greatly enriched my studies and widened my reading horizons. The legends of the people often discuss their arrival to their country. This is often by divine providence. Providence is sometimes expressed as a white animal or bird, and by lightning. (These stories of people settling in the land they are given occupy much of the first chapters of Genesis.)

My historical model is that all regions of the earth, when carefully studied, will show a kaleidascope of smaller cultures, surprising and astonishing in their levels of skill in metal working, trade, dress, and each possessing various law codes which every one understands. They are probably not Caste systems in most cases. (They are termed "heroic societies" by the sociologists and quickly passed over, because sociologists are looking for elites living in palaces and ordering luxury items from the stupid barbarians. No palace? No civilization.) Examples of these surprising societies with excellent trade, indoor plumbing, lovely metal working methods, coin currency and alphabetic writing are "Old Europe," [Dacia, Thrace], Etruria, and the levels of Anatolia below the Greeks, such as Lydians, Phrygians, etc..

In this model, the conquering empires with their monolithic building projects, caste systems and economic domination are the unnatural and disasterous periods for these regions. Examples include Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greece and Rome. They are shown as brutal beasts in the scripture, trampling everything, and made up of the worst of the conquered areas, like a chimera. [It would be preferable to die by a nice clean thunderbolt in my view.]

The Late Bronze Age migrations were more dramatic and were often the result of the destruction of a city, such as Harrapa or those found on Santorini. Depending on evidence, this could have been a thunderbolt -- or not. That is only to be understood by field work and a microscope. There is no other way to find out. Every other method is unacceptable. The electrical effects cannot be hidden from an SEM. I do not estimate that the five cities of the plain (Sodom and Gomorah) were destroyed by a planet. I think that a large enough NEO could have done the job. Most electrical exchanges now cause a crater to be formed because there is no water or because the atmosphere is too thin for the electrical discharge to cause filamentary scarring. Craters are recent.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:31 pm

Postby Lloyd » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:18 pm
Brigit, I don't find your insults of Velikovsky to be realistic or helpful. How about discussing Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm?

Postby Brigit Bara » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:07 pm
- ... The Zarathustrian Bundahishn [says] - "... a thousand demons, causers of death, were let forth
- 24. And, afterwards, he (the evil spirit) came to fire, and he mingled smoke and darkness with it.
- 25. The planets, with many demons, dashed against the celestial sphere, and they mixed the constellations; and the whole creation was as disfigured as though fire disfigured every place and smoke arose over it.
- 26. ... heavenly angels ... hurled [the demons] confounded to hell...."
- Now here is an example of planetary catastrophe which needs no professional analyst, and has survived through 3500 years.

Postby seasmith » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:52 pm
- ... What is proposed to be the source of that catastrophe you mention?
Postby jacmac » Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:37 pm
- ... Velikovsky was saying the exact opposite. That the MYTHS of ancient people are not made up stories but are representations of actual historic events.
- ... "The catastrophes that occurred within the memory of humankind are recorded in the myths ... of all ancient cultures and civilisations. Velikovsky pointed to alleged concordances in the accounts of many cultures, and proposed that they referred to the same real events."

Postby Brigit Bara » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:49 pm
- ... Velikovsky and his followers are [stupid].
- ... You asked me for a quote: "The agitation and trepidation preceding global upheavals, the destruction and despair that accompanied them and the horror of possible repetition all caused a variety of reactions, at the base of which was the need to forget, but also the urge to emulate." - Immanuel Velikovsky
- So I set out to demonstrate ... that [people] all responded differently. Perhaps you could think of it as 100 patients with [potentially severe] PSTD from the same event. No one would claim that they all have the same response and dysfunction. ...

Brigit, you didn't exactly say that Velikovsky & others are stupid, but it seems to me that's what you're suggesting. I don't believe Velikovsky ever said that EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE ANCIENTS REACTED EXACTLY THE SAME WAY TO THE GLOBAL CATACLYSMS OF THEIR TIME. But I believe that 95% or more of them very probably did react about the same way with great fear and confusion. And just as it's natural for people who suffer more typical traumas tend to forget, especially if they occur in early childhood, I think it's entirely probable that Velikovsky is right about how the ancients seem to have reacted worldwide. I don't understand why that theory bothers you. Is there some sacred text that you consider infallible, which the theory disputes?

Postby Brigit Bara » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:37 pm
- ... http://avesta.org/mp/bundahis.html
Postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:17 am
- ... What I am attempting to illustrate over multiple posts, is that the myths ... do not require ... psychoanalytical expertise and divining of symbology....
Postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:37 am
- ... Zarathustrianism's most important texts [say] that the planets dashed against the constellations and burned the earth up.
Postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:13 pm
- Here is a passage from the Menog-i Khrad ("The Spirit of Wisdom"): source: http://www.avesta.org/mp/mx.html
- ... 21. And ... those twelve constellations and seven planets are organizing and managing the world.
- ... Velikovsky [and] his careless disciples ... have managed to somehow divine through psychoanalysis that Zarathustrians worship "Jupiter." ... It is also a missed opportunity to show integrity in handling what other people have preserved and believed and lived -- which helped them to survive many catastrophes.
Postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:44 pm
- ... In Deut 5 and Ex 20 ... They were not to worship and burn incense "to Baal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations, and to all the host of heaven." ... This shows that there was a prohibition on ever worshiping anything in the sky, or using idols. ... Since God cannot be seen and is all powerful, people are not to be afraid.... So how do the Velikovskians find Saturn worship in the Bible? 1. Jews worship God on the Sabbath, which is Saturday. 2. "It has been said that they were Saturn's children."

Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:25 pm
- ... An idol is just an image or representation of a 'god' - one does not worship the image, one worships the god through the image. The cross is a Christian idol and the Black Stone at Mecca is a Muslim idol. ... Christians worship God on Sunday. Are they Sun worshippers? Constantine was - Sol Invictus. And Jesus dies for 3 days just like the Sun [at the winter solstice].
- ... They say that behind every good man there stands a good woman and it [is] no different with gods and goddesses. Frigga stands behind (or beside) Odin. Lakshmi behind Vishnu; Saraswati behind Brahma and Mrs Shiva behind Shiva. There is the Mother Goddess and there is the Father God.

Brigit, do you mean you think ancient people who believed in a real spiritual God were able to survive cataclysms? And do you think some catastrophists blaspheme God by disbelieving that? I'm Christian, but I don't believe any book is infallible and I don't believe God is offended if anyone doesn't believe in God etc. And, if you were open-minded enough to read catastrophists' findings about origins of sacred texts, including the Bible, I think it would be obvious that most of the Israelites did worship Saturn for a long time. You'd have to read a lot more than just a few of the kinds of statements you referenced.

Re Grey Cloud's remarks, I suspect that Jesus was aware of the ancient myths and was trying to substitute himself, or his example as a role model, to help the people transition from superstition to real civilization.

Postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:45 pm
- ... The visual clues of the weapons held by Zeus and others can be used to verify the memory of the plasma discharges.

Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:51 pm
- ... Hesiodic, mythological tradition [says] the serpent monster Typhoeus rises up against Zeus after the latter’s defeat of the Titans and tries to seize his throne from him. Closer still is the parallel between Ullikummi and Typhoeus/Typhon preserved in a later Greek tradition in which Typhon like Ullikummi grows to such a towering height that he reaches the heavens.24 And most significantly the Teshub–Ullikummi and Zeus–Typhon conflicts are fought out in the same location, Mt Hazzi/Kasios on the coast of northern Syria. - ... Life and Society in the Hittite World.

Postby seasmith » Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:08 pm
- BB, ... What did cause the widespread dispersions and human migrations toward the end of the Bronze Age, as cited by thee.
- Any body can quote scripture, understanding them is something else.

Postby Roshi » Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:43 am
- ... Saint George is ... revered by Muslims [and] Christians.... He is said to have killed a dragon near the sea in Beirut, for which a Saint George Bay was built under his name. ...
- Gilgamesh is another interesting story:
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/epic-of-gilgamesh.html
- He smote the ground and faced the monster. ... The very clouds turned black and rained death upon them all. ... The thirteen winds darkened the face of Humbaba so that Gilgamesh could reach him with his weapons.

The various myths you guys are quoting share the same themes and motifs and that's what allows comparative mythology to find out what the earliest ancients witnessed before, during and shortly after the main cataclysm.

Postby Grey Cloud » Mon Feb 08, 2016 1:23 pm
- ... Here is part of the prologue to the XI tablet version of the Epic of Gilgamesh: He brought back a tale of before the Deluge. ... He built the rampart of ... the sacred storehouse. ... Take the stairway of a bygone era. Draw near to Eanna, the seat of Ishtar the goddess, that no later king could ever copy! Climb Uruk's wall and ... Survey its foundations, examine the brickwork! ... Did the Seven Sages not lay its foundations?
- ... Here's piece of tablet X: The tavern keeper replied to Gilgamesh: "Not from the beginning of time has anyone ever been able to go across the glittering sea. Shamash alone, the Sun, crosses the sea.
- So much for Shamash = a stationary Saturn. Just to be clear context-wise, the 'sea' here is the sky/heavens - the same as Homer's 'wine-dark sea'.

You're free to jump to an unsound conclusion, if you want, but that's very likely an incorrect interpretation of the myth. I agree that the "sea" usually meant the sky, but "crosses the sea" is probably wrong. And it's highly probable that Shamash was initially Saturn, as I've quoted before here.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:47 am

Brigit,
electrical scarring on the earth, I believe there were planetary-scale plasma discharges which laced the earth with filamentary scars and suberranean dendritic veins of ores, etc
Fair enough as a working hypothesis but how does one ascertain that this scarring all happened at the same time(-period)?

"Nimrod was tyranizing in the plain of Shinar."
But he wasn't tyrannising in downtown Tiwanaku or Harrapa.

Mercury passed by. The tower is turned into a nice pretty Richat structure
Where do you get Mercury from - I'm curious. Is there a Richat structure in Iraq? Or where are you placing Shinar?

The em pulses from this interaction have extraordinary effects on the auditory and linguistic areas of the brain. The rapid oscillations of the interactions between the magnetospheres of the earth and interloper alter speech centers of the cerebral cortex.
Any evidence that this is possible?

The legends of the people often discuss their arrival to their country.
True but I cannot think of any from outside of Mesopatamia who claim to originate from Mesopotamia. I'm open to offers here. Most of those I'm familiar with come into Anatolia/Near East from outside. Also, there are generally people already in these places. This latter point is true of Genesis is it not? Doesn't Cain marry a woman from the land of Nod?

(They are termed "heroic societies" by the sociologists and quickly passed over, because sociologists are looking for elites living in palaces and ordering luxury items from the stupid barbarians. No palace? No civilization.)
This may well be true of sociologists but it is definitely not true of historians, archaeologists, anthropologists etc. There is a vast literature relating to 'pre-historical', paleolithic etc people and societies. Given this, how does your timescale of post-diluvian diaspora work?

Examples of these surprising societies with excellent trade, indoor plumbing, lovely metal working methods, coin currency and alphabetic writing are "Old Europe," [Dacia, Thrace], Etruria, and the levels of Anatolia below the
Greeks, such as Lydians, Phrygians, etc.
Dacians are very late and a branch of the Thracians. Phrygians are also fairly late and are an example of a people who came into the region from outside (i.e. Europe/Eurasia).
I agree with you about the craftsmanship, trading and, to a certain extent, the technology.

Examples include Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greece and Rome. They are shown as brutal beasts in the scripture, trampling everything, and made up of the worst of the conquered areas, like a chimera.

The Greeks never had an empire, they didn't even have a Greece, just load of independent city-states (and the Macedonian empire lasted about 5 minutes after the death of Alexander and doesn't feature in the OT or NT. (does it?)). These empires are given a bad press in the OT because it was the people of the OT who were getting it in the neck. The writers of the OT didn't complain so much when they were on the winning side.

The Late Bronze Age migrations were more dramatic and were often the result of the destruction of a city, such as Harrapa or those found on Santorini
I think Harrapa was abandoned rather than destroyed. Santorini was a one-off eruption that doesn't seem to be part of the Middle- or Late-Bronze Age collapses and in any case didn't result in any migration.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:03 pm

Lloyd
And just as it's natural for people who suffer more typical traumas tend to forget, especially if they occur in early childhood,
It's huge leap from that to saying that everyone in the world forgot and somehow passed it on to the descendents.

You're free to jump to an unsound conclusion, if you want, but that's very likely an incorrect interpretation of the myth. I agree that the "sea" usually meant the sky, but "crosses the sea" is probably wrong. And it's highly probable that Shamash was initially Saturn, as I've quoted before here.
The quote came from a well respected scholar in his field who understands the various languages the Epic is written in. What evidence do you have that he is wrong, other than your conviction that the Saturn theorists are right? Given that the tavern keeper is advising Gilgamesh not to cross the sea and that the succeeding verses are about Gilgamesh ignoring her and crossing the sea and what happens during the crossing of the sea and what happens after he has crossed the sea, I feel it is fairly same to assume that it means he crosses the sea. He is crossing the sea to visit Utnapishtim (the Noah character). Utnapishtim did not cross the sea, he was translated there by the gods. Hence the tavern keeper's statement that only Shamash the Sun has made the crossing. Journeying is one of the central motifs of the book.
As I keep saying, you need to read these texts yourself and study the subject matter yourself and not rely on third and fourth hand accounts from second-rate authors. Velikovsky wrote over 50 years ago, his sources are even older; Talbott wrote over 30 years ago, his sources are even older. Scholarship moves forward, your authors don't.
I have read the Epic at least twice, read umpteen learned journal articles about the epic and who knows how many books relating to Mesopotamia. I never jump to conclusions.
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I will follow the great Way alone
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The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Feb 10, 2016 11:18 am

seasmith says, "What did cause the widespread dispersions and human migrations toward the end of the Bronze Age" ?


Here is a study linking solar activity with volcanic activity. Cliff Harris and Randy Mann find that the volcanic activity increases during lower solar activity. The eruptions then further amplify the cooling.

Image

Maybe this is more helpful.

The disruptions to the growing seasons and the destruction of key economic cities would, I think, be the reasons for some of the migrations and the serious famines during the time of Abraham+Sarah and on (2000 BC).

The sudden loss of a major port city and/or sea power would be devastating in a highly interconnected, literate and wealthy pre-classical world.

Caveats:
I don't know what a good proxy for solar activity that far back is, in the Electric Universe.
I don't know which solar activity and temp datasets were used in this study
I place the Exodus at 1446 BC

Also, I think that during flatter sunspot activity there may be increased earthquake activity. And finally, I think that near earth objects may cause a more powerful electrical response from the earth during low solar activity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:24 pm

Grey Cloud says,
electrical scarring on the earth, I believe there were planetary-scale plasma discharges which laced the earth with filamentary scars and suberranean dendritic veins of ores, etc

Fair enough as a working hypothesis but how does one ascertain that this scarring all happened at the same time(-period)?


We start with the assumption that the Electric Universe is correct about the filamentary scarring on Venus and on Titan.
Image

Because of Titan's thick atmosphere, which is four times that of earth's, the Electric Universe predicted that there would be dendritic scarring very similar to that of Venus, few craters, and no methane sea. When Huygnes descended to the surface, scientists were treated to an "earthlike place" with "plateaus, river-channels and deltas." --And no methane sea.

Image



Likewise, the reason for the filamentary scarring and the lack of craters on Venus according to the El.Universe is that there were "equatorial discharges through a thick atmosphere."

Working from this poise, we see very plainly that the scarring on earth almost universally resembles lichtenburg figures. The craters are few. The only discharges of sufficient power and duration for this scarring would have to be interplanetary in scale. (Leaving aside the mid-ocean ridges for now.)

I conclude that either the earth was dry during several electrical encounters with "wandering stars," and the atmosphere was 4-9 times thicker, or
the earth was covered with water during one or both of the recent encounters.

I do not think it is possible to completely rule out the presence of water during earth's period of electrical sculpting by saying there was a thicker atmosphere.

The timing for the second deluge would be c. 3500 -2500. I don't know the date. The previous indundation was perhaps 500-1000 years before that. [So those are the two windows for the brunt of the planetary chaos in the solar system as I see it.]
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Feb 10, 2016 1:26 pm

Brigit,
The timing for the second deluge would be c. 3500 -2500. I don't know the date. The previous indundation was perhaps 500-1000 years before that. [So those are the two windows for the brunt of the planetary chaos in the solar system as I see it.]
Mainstream dating has the Middle BA collapse at c 2300bce and the Late BA collapse c1200. Personally I would pull the LBA Collapse this way a few centuries (reduce the Dark Age). The Philistines were Mycenaeans, nobody disputes that. I would make them post-Trojan War vets who didn't bother going home or possibly post-Hyksos (mercenary?) vets who set up shop in in Philistia after the Hyksos were kicked out of Egypt. The time of Joshua is gradually being pulled this way as a result of archaeology. As you are aware Joshua features catastrophic refs and Philistines. By Joshua I mean the whole post-wandering period.
(While the mainstream dating may be 'problematic' the actual sequence of events is more reliable).
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:34 pm

Grey Cloud says,
Dacians are very late and a branch of the Thracians....
I agree with you about the craftsmanship, trading and, to a certain extent, the technology.


The problem here is that all people think they know about all of the [European, N African and Mediterranean] pre-classical/classical age societies come from Greek and Roman sources. This is a distortion and a horrible mistake which is at long last being rectified.

The work in pushing past the Greco-Roman versions of history is difficult because virtually all of the literature from all of the nations the Greeks and Romans invaded has been destroyed and lost. Nothing exists of these dozens and dozens of written languages but a few Greek glosses and handfuls of inscriptions. But with care and diligence, and a good measure of caution, historians, archaeologists, and independent researchers are discovering that "the Barbarians" and "pirates" are not what they were made out to be by their conquerors.

Some very exciting work is being done, and if anyone is snowed in and would enjoy a beautifully made documentary, here is an example of this exciting new direction in archaeology which has been so long in coming-- The Thracians, a documentary by Daniel Roxin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0GK6-gtEFo


Description:
Europe's ancient history should be re-written! Long before Rome came into existence and before Greece flourished, the Thracian stirpes have populated vast areas of the European continent and they left their mark on its whole history.

We invite you on a journey to Europe's antiquity, where a new vision over ancient history will be presented to you. Many of the things you have considered before, as being well established, will be shaken. Little known facts and events will come to redefine history as you know it...

The material evidence and historical sources prove that the Thracians had an advanced culture and that they were sophisticated art creators; also, that the Greek world was strongly influenced by the Thracian one, the Greeks borrowing traditions and deities from the Thracians.

Concurrently, the excursion into the ancient Thracian-Geto-Dacian world will bring to you a close-up of the amazing gold and silver ancient treasures and the remarkable personalities of certain Thracian heroes that have remained deeply carved into humanity's memory...



May this documentary's viewing be a useful one to you!
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:52 pm

Here is another example of fine gentlemen and scholars (and comedians) who are looking at the people the Romans conquered without the Roman slant.

Terry Jones (:

"The Brainy Barbarians" by BBC is not available to watch on youtube any more, oh noes.

His book is CHOCOLATE for the misoromaios who is tired of historians running around with a spade in one hand and copies of Tacitus or even Greeks like Plato in the other!

Image

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/056353 ... 1_4&sr=8-4
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:19 pm

Brigit
1. The video is in Romanian.
2. The Dacians are still contemporary with Romans, i.e. late.
3. There is a lot of nationalistic stuff coming out of SE Europe lately. Doesn't mean the claims aren't true - just approach with salt cellar in hand.
4. It is well known and well attested that the Romans put a lot of 'spin' on their accounts. Can't think of a Greek writer who put down foreigners in the way you are implying.

I read this book a few months back:
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/o ... obb-review
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/book ... eview.html
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and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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