Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby jacmac » Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:37 pm

Brigit, you said this:
The historical paradigm used by Velikovsky is exactly one of those attempts to frame all of the folk beliefs as nothing but "primitive fear and superstition worthy of derision," as you put it.

What some of us are telling you is that Velikovsky was saying the exact opposite. That the MYTHS of ancient people are not made up stories but are representations of actual historic events.

You say he was a psychoanalyst. Yes, Wikipedia says:

Career as a psychiatrist[edit]
Velikovsky lived in what was then the British Mandate of Palestine from 1924 to 1939, practising medicine in the fields of general practice, psychiatry and psychoanalysis which he had studied under Sigmund Freud's pupil Wilhelm Stekel in Vienna. During this time, he had about a dozen papers published in medical and psychoanalytic journals. He was also published in Freud's Imago, including a precocious analysis of Freud's own dreams.[12]



Wikipedia also says:

He arrived at a body of radical inter-disciplinary ideas, which might be summarised as:[citation needed]
Planet Earth has suffered natural catastrophes on a global scale, both before and during humankind's recorded history.
There is evidence for these catastrophes in the geological record (here Velikovsky was advocating Catastrophist ideas as opposed to the prevailing Uniformitarian notions) and archeological record. The extinction of many species had occurred catastrophically, not by gradual Darwinian means.
The catastrophes that occurred within the memory of humankind are recorded in the myths, legends and written history of all ancient cultures and civilisations. Velikovsky pointed to alleged concordances in the accounts of many cultures, and proposed that they referred to the same real events.


I would say these efforts of Dr. Velikovsky are hardly the work of someone who is attempting to frame all of the folk beliefs as nothing but "primitive fear and superstition worthy of derision".

Perhaps you could give us specific quotes from Velikovsky that you have a problem with. It would be most helpful.

Jack

Ps. I do see, from your quotes, that some ancient people might have known of the planetary responsibility for, or involvement with, cataclismic events.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:49 pm

Hello Jack.

I have tried to address your excellent rebuttal by summarizing--whether correctly or incorrectly-- Velikovsky's approach. That was on page 19 of this thread, but don't worry about it.

You rightly pointed out
What some of us are telling you is that Velikovsky was saying the exact opposite [of an attempt to frame all of the folk beliefs as nothing but "primitive fear and superstition worthy of derision"]. That the MYTHS of ancient people are not made up stories but are representations of actual historic events.


Velikovsky and his followers are indeed attempting to point out that some of the sacred texts and legends should be taken literally. But I have tried to show that he feels that all of mankind is traumatized by a past catastrophe, and are responding with defense mechanisms such as: building monumental structures, having a fear of displeasing divinities, exhibiting irrational behavior, and having silly bourgeois pecadillos like the Ten Commandments and such. And the urge to reenact the catastrophe is an additional symptom of a collective mental disorder.

You asked me for a quote:

"The agitation and trepidation preceding global upheavals, the destruction and despair that accompanied them and the horror of possible repetition all caused a variety of reactions, at the base of which was the need to forget, but also the urge to emulate."
- Immanuel Velikovsky


So I set out to demonstrate with specific examples that individuals, families, tribes, nations and tongues all responded differently. Perhaps you could think of it as 100 patients with [potentially severe] PSTD from the same event. No one would claim that they all have the same response and dysfunction. It doesn't work that way. And thank you for taking the time! (:
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:37 pm

@seasmith, thank you for pointing out that my Freudian slip was showing (:

That is an interesting cliff note version you found. You can read the original Bundahishn and Greater Bundahishn in just an hour or two.

http://avesta.org/mp/bundahis.html

CONTENTS:

Chapter 1. Ohrmazd's original creation; the antagonism of the evil spirit; nature of the creatures of the world
Chapter 2. On the formation of the luminaries
Chapter 3. The rush of the destroyer at the creatures
Chapter 4. Goshorun, the primal ox
Chapter 5. The planets and cosmology
Chapter 6. The battle with the sky
Chapter 7. The battle with water
Chapter 8. The battle with the earth
Chapter 9. The battle with the plants
Chapter 10. The battle with the primeval ox
Chapter 11. The nature of the earth
Chapter 12. The nature of mountains
Chapter 13. The nature of the oceans
Chapter 14. The nature of the animals
Chapter 15. The nature of people
Chapter 16. The nature of procreation
Chapter 17. The nature of fire
Chapter 18. The nature of trees
Chapter 19. Regarding fabulous creatures
Chapter 20. The nature of rivers
Chapter 21. Regarding liquids
Chapter 22. The nature of lakes
Chapter 23. The nature of the ape and bear
Chapter 24. The chieftainship of people and animals
Chapter 25. The religious calendar
Chapter 26. Measuring distances
Chapter 27. The nature of plants
Chapter 28. On the evil-doing of Ahriman and the demons
Chapter 29. On the spiritual chieftainship of the regions of the earth
Chapter 30. On the resurrection and future existence
Chapter 31. On the race and offspring of the Kayans
Chapter 32. Pourushasp and Zartosht
Chapter 33. The family of the Mobads
Chapter 34. On the reckoning of years
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:14 pm

@BB

So you've actually read it, good, then again the question-
What is your proposed specific source/cause, of the catastrophe you mention ?

Now here is an example of planetary catastrophe which needs no professional analyst, and has survived through 3500 years. -BB


thank you
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby jacmac » Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:11 pm

BB,
In the Bundahisn(which you have provided-thanks),
Chapter 5 it says:
5. For there are a hundred and eighty apertures (rojin) in the east, and a hundred and eighty in the west, through Alburz; and the sun, every day, comes in through an aperture, and goes out through an aperture;

and also:
6. And twice in every year the day and night are equal, for on the original attack, when it (the sun) went forth from its first degree (khurdak), the day and night were equal, it was the season of spring; when it arrives at the first degree of Kalachang (Cancer) the time of day is greatest, it is the beginning of summer; (ETC)

and also:
So that when it comes back to Varak, in three hundred and sixty days and the five Gatha days,

This is a good example of information in ancient texts that Velikovsky would have used in his writings.(perhaps he did ?)
He did talk about the year being 360 days BCE.

In your text above it speaks to 180 days (apertures) in the east and 180 days in the west; then describes the four seasons: then again says 360 days and only then adds the five Gatha days.

It seems possible to me that the the five Gatha days were added (without explanation by the way...perhaps the authors forgot what happened) at a later time. Clearly, the text sets out 180 days as half of the year, describes the seasons and again says 360 days.

Then in Chapter 25 it says:
1. On matters of religion it says in revelation thus: 'The creatures of the world were created by me complete in three hundred and sixty-five days,'

Nobody ever said this was going to be easy !

Please, don't be so angry with Velikovsky for being influenced by Freud. It was the middle of the 20th century. Freud was a big deal then. And it was only mentioned as explanation of why the general population seemed to forget(amnesia ?) what happened in history. His WORK was a re-creation of what likely took place on the earth using all the information he was able to gather.

You can completely get away from the whole Mythology and ancient text material, and read EARTH IN UPHEAVAL by Velikovsky.
He presents all his same ideas with only the evidence found in the ground!

Peace,
Jack
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:17 am

Seasmith says,
What is your proposed specific source/cause, of the catastrophe you mention ?
[Because you say,]
"Now here is an example of planetary catastrophe which needs no professional analyst, and has survived through 3500 years." -BB


Seasmith, what I meant, and what I am attempting to illustrate over multiple posts, is that the myths, legends, and sacred texts do not require a professional trained psychoanalyst to read planetary instability between the lines. The Zarathustrians and others have described this in plain language.

The significance is that since this requires no psychoanalytical expertise and divining of symbology, it has been completely left out of the psyachoanalytical model of history-- Thunderbolts of the Gods, for example.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:37 am

This is a good example of information in ancient texts that Velikovsky would have used in his writings.(perhaps he did ?)
He did talk about the year being 360 days BCE.

~jacmac

Hi jacmac,

I do not doubt that someone will rifle through and find this to support the well-known theory that the earth once had a 360-day year. No doubt he will even say that this is proof of Velikovsky's theory of planetary catastrophe.

In order to do this, however, he will have to studiously avoid and carefully pass over 3 plain statements in some of Zarathustrianism's most important texts, that the planets dashed against the constellations and burned the earth up.

You remark,
It seems possible to me that the the five Gatha days were added (without explanation by the way...perhaps the authors forgot what happened) at a later time.


Except that within context, they did say that the planets had come close to earth and caused everything to be burned. So perhaps that is all the explanation you get. My mom used to say, "Take what you get and like it!"

So you see, even despite your willingness to look at original texts and your fair mindedness in examining this matter yourself, there is a danger that the theory that the planetary catastrophe must be somehow inferred through symbolism and a psychoanalytical approach blinded you from seeing the actual explanation that was given. "...perhaps the authors forgot what happened" And I do admire and respect your willingness to read the Bundahishn, and that you make a good defense of Velikovsky. I am sure he is worthy of some gratitude. (:

I will provide an additional description of the planatery catastrophe from another Zarathustrian book.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:13 pm

Here is a passage from the Menog-i Khrad ("The Spirit of Wisdom").
source: http://www.avesta.org/mp/mx.html

It is a book in which Zartosht the Spitaman, that is Zarathustra, asks the Spirit of Wisdom questions about life. I placed it as a jpg image so that if anyone is too busy, he can click on it and save it, and read it when he has more time.

Image

His question in Chapter 8 is,
1. The sage asked the spirit of wisdom (2) thus: 'How and in what manner has Ohrmazd created these creatures and creation? 3. And how and in what manner were the archangels and the spirit of wisdom formed and created by him? 4. And how are the demons and fiends and also the remaining corrupted ones of Ahriman, the wicked, miscreated? 5. How do every good and evil happen which occur to mankind and also the remaining creatures? 6. And is it possible to alter anything which is destined, or not?'


One segment of the answer from the Spirit of Wisdom to this question is,
17. 'Every good and the reverse which happen to mankind, and also the other creatures, happen through the seven planets and the twelve constellations. 18. And those twelve constellations are such as in revelation are the twelve chieftains who are on the side of Ohrmazd, (19) and those seven planets are called the seven chieftains who are on the side of Ahriman. 20. Those seven planets pervert every creature and creation, and deliver them up to death and every evil. 21. And, as it were, those twelve constellations and seven planets are organizing and managing the world.


Now I am not only upset with Velikovsky, but his careless disciples, who have managed to somehow divine through psychoanalysis that Zarathustrians worship "Jupiter." "Ahura Mazda is Jupiter." I think the psychoanalytic historical paradigm makers should all say "Uncle" and fix this problem.

Zeus? That is a lot of psychoanalytical secret sauce. But I think it is not only a poor symbolic algorithm that yields bad results, it is also a missed opportunity to show integrity in handling what other people have preserved and believed and lived -- which helped them to survive many catastrophes.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:44 pm

My third example of a truly unique response to planetary catastrophe is from an even more well-known text, the Old Testament. The Old Testament is made up of 39 books spanning millennia.

Since Biblical literacy is not what it used to be, we will not expect too much. We'll have just a quick look at one of the most famous passages in the OT: The Ten Commandments. These can be found in Deut 5 and Ex 20.

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them."

They were not to worship and burn incense "to Baal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations, and to all the host of heaven." Why? "You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods."

This shows that there was a prohibition on ever worshiping anything in the sky, or using idols. Idolatry was so widespread it is hard for the modern mind to grasp. Egypt is said to have had 3,000 idols and temples. Today, India has 3,000,000 gods and a long history with idols.

So this is a response which 1. verifies the widespread practice of worshiping the hosts of heaven, and 2. a law against it.

Since God cannot be seen and is all powerful, people are not to be afraid "though the mountains be shaken and the earth be removed," because He is above even those powers of the heavens. "I gave them to the whole earth as a heritage." That seems like a healthy response to a trauma to me. Acknowledge the truth and don't be afraid.

So how do the Velikovskians find Saturn worship in the Bible?
1. Jews worship God on the Sabbath, which is Saturday.
2. "It has been said that they were Saturn's children."
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:52 pm

This may be a real stoopid question:
What evidence is there that any ancient people had a 360 day year? I mean a 360 day year without mention of 5 added days.
Am I missing something here?
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:00 pm

Evidence of Saturn worship in the Old Testament:
Jews worship God on Saturday.


Now this is interesting. Let's apply this principle in other cases to see what kind of results we get.

Christians worship God on Sunday. Are they Sun worshippers?
No, Son worshippers. Very close!

Let's utilize this methodology again.

Sometimes I go to the Wednesday night service. What is Wednesday? It is Odin's Day.
This makes me an Odin worshiper.

I haven't got anything against Odin. But personally I think he is no one without Freya. It is said that when Odin+Freay both stood next to each other on the high mountain, they could see wherever they wanted to look. Frigga's day is Friday, so I have to say that I am not an Odin+Freya worshiper, although they are interesting too. The theory does not work.

Shabat means rest. And it may be a play on the word seven, sheva. Every seventh day, and every seventh year, and every sevetieth year, there were Sabbaths. Rest. Remember to rest and not overwork yourself.
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:25 pm

Brigit
You went to the well once too often. :D
They were not to worship and burn incense "to Baal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations, and to all the host of heaven." Why? "You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods."
They were not because the Canaanites did. The Canaanites were supposed to have been exterminated when the Hebrews took over the 'Promised Land'. This was done in the south (Judah) where there was less of a Canaanite presence but not in the north (Israel) where there was a substantial Canaanite presence. When the Assyrians destroyed the state of Israel, the Judaean priests claimed that this was YHWH's punishment for this failure.
An idol is just an image or representation of a 'god' - one does not worship the image, one worships the god through the image. The cross is a Christian idol and the Black Stone at Mecca is a Muslim idol.
The Indians do not have any gods - they have Devas and Asuras and way beyond these is something which goes by many names: Brahman, Atman, the Aja, Hari, etc, etc. Totally different concept to the Abrahamic one.

Christians worship God on Sunday. Are they Sun worshippers?
Constantine was - Sol Invictus. And Jesus dies for 3 days just like the Sun. Twelve disciples - 12 months. There are lots of other parallels/similarities. And then there is the cult of Mithra.

Sometimes I go to the Wednesday night service. What is Wednesday? It is Odin's Day.
This makes me an Odin worshiper.
False logic. Wednesday is not a holy day.

Frigga's day is Friday, so I have to say that I am not an Odin+Freya worshiper, although they are interesting too.
Frigg or Frigga is associated with the Mother Goddess who in turn is associated with the planet Venus which is turn is asociated with the colour green. Hence the green Islamic crescent and the Islamic holy day of Friday.

They say that behind every good man there stands a good woman and it no different with gods and goddesses. Frigga stands behind (or beside) Odin. Lakshmi behind Vishnu; Saraswati behind Brahma and Mrs Shiva behind Shiva :oops: There is the Mother Goddess and there is the Father God. The mysoginistic Jews tried to cut out the female role and the Christians and Muslims followed suit but it is still there in the OT and Koran if one looks properly.
Last edited by Grey Cloud on Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
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The great Way is simple
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:45 pm

Idolatry is another subject but important -- since the visual clues of the weapons held by Zeus and others can be used to verify the memory of the plasma discharges.

That is an outstanding argument for human witnesses and survivors of high energy electrical activity. Thunderbolts has made a very effective match regarding these weapons of the gods.

But alas, Greeks and Romans were rank idolaters of the ancient world. It was not very nice to be on the receiving end of Hellenization or Romanization for many in Anatolia, the Mediterranean, and in Judea. They would put statues of Zeus in the temple and carry out idolatrous acts. Some people did not like that. It is called,

The Abomination of Desolation
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:56 pm

Sometimes I go to the Wednesday night service. What is Wednesday? It is Odin's Day.
This makes me an Odin worshiper.

False logic. Wednesday is not a holy day. The Germans call it mittletag.



I am humorously referencing the thunderbolts movie which says that Jews worshipped Saturn because the Sabbath was on Saturday.

Sorry, I did not mention the source of the Velikovskian argument for Saturn in the Old Testament. If any one needs me to, I will provide the time reference in the documentary for that.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:09 pm

Brigit Bara wrote:Idolatry is another subject but important -- since the visual clues of the weapons held by Zeus and others can be used to verify the memory of the plasma discharges.

That is an outstanding argument for human witnesses and survivors of high energy electrical activity. Thunderbolts has made a very effective match regarding these weapons of the gods.

But alas, Greeks and Romans were rank idolaters of the ancient world. It was not very nice to be on the receiving end of Hellenization or Romanization for many in Anatolia, the Mediterranean, and in Judea. They would put statues of Zeus in the temple and carry out idolatrous acts. Some people did not like that. It is called,

The Abomination of Desolation

I'd take Hellenisation over Judaeanisation any day. The Greeks never tried to exterminate any one and if they had they would not have done it in the name of their god. I've no time for the Romans but they didn't do anything very religious apart from deify themselves. The track record of Christians in Anatolia, the Mediterranean, Europe, Asia, Africa and the Americas is not exactly stellar is it? And what qualifies you to say that idolatory is a bad thing? See if you can track down Maximus of Tyres Defence of Idols. He was a Platonist.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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