Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:25 am

Venus, Cause of Global Cataclysm
The ancients appear to have believed that Comet Venus was the cause of global cataclysms. Here are excerpts from Cochrane's website and the former Thoth newsletter showing more evidence of this. I plan to list more evidence in one or more later posts.

The Many Faces of Venus
maverickscience.com
The Planet Venus in Ancient Myth and Religion
- Already at the dawn of recorded history, Sumerian priests composed hymns in honor of the planet which they venerated as the goddess Inanna (Venus): "I want to address my greeting, to the great queen of heaven, Inanna, I want to address my greeting, to her who fills the sky with her pure blaze, to the luminous one, to Inanna, as bright as the sun, to the great queen of heaven."2
- Especially intriguing are those hymns which describe the planet-goddess as dominating the skies and raining fire and destruction. The following passage is typical in this regard: "You make the heavens tremble and the earth quake. Great Priestess, who can soothe your troubled heart? You flash like lightning over the highlands; you throw your firebrands across the earth. Your deafening command…splits apart great mountains."3
- The Sumerian testimony has striking parallels around the globe, in the New World as well as the Old, a telling clue that common experience of catastrophic events—not poetic metaphor—is responsible for the peculiar traditions surrounding Venus.
- Venus' present appearance would never inspire mass hysteria or vivid tales of impending doom and world destruction. How, then, are we to account for the fact that Sahagun's testimony documenting the Aztec's attitude towards Venus echoes the Sumerian skywatchers' conception of Inanna/Venus: "To provoke shivers of fright, panic, trembling, and terror before the halo of your fearsome splendor, that is in your nature, oh Inanna!"5
- [What was the reason for the] ancients' preoccupation with Venus [and why did they associate Venus with] war, pestilence, fertility, etc., ... as mentioned by ... David Grinspoon, a NASA astronomer? ... It stands to reason that any ancient skywatcher worth his salt would soon discover that there was precious little to be learned about such terrestrial matters from the patient observation of Venus, ... if we are to believe the conventional version of Venus' history....

VELIKOVSKY AND PLANETARY CATASTROPHE
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1997.15.txt
- Wherever astronomical traditions of Venus are preserved in any detail, Venus is the mythical Great Comet, appearing in the sky at a time of world-destroying catastrophe. You will find this identity confirmed from Mexico and Peru to ancient Greece and Rome, from ancient China to even more ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.
- In fact, literally all of the astronomical hieroglyphs for "the comet" are "simultaneously" attached to Venus and to the revered great goddess, who "is" Venus in the first astronomies.
- [Note] the incredible extent to which ancient language, in seeming denial of nature, combined words and images for "serpent" and for "hair".... In the Egyptian language, for example, numerous, words mean, at once, "hair" and "serpent".... You will never find an explanation for this apart from the global identity of the "long-haired star"/Great Comet with the cosmic serpent/Great Comet).

VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1997.21.txt
When it comes to "irrational" terror carried as luggage from the past, little else compares to the universal fear of THE COMET. ... Everywhere on Earth, with only a few exceptions, comets were harbingers of change, ill fortune, evil. It was common knowledge. ... The ancient and poorly understood fear aroused by the appearance of a comet continued through the Middle Ages and even (in a more tempered expression) into the twentieth century, with the arrival of Halley's Comet in 1910.
- On the arrival of the comet of 1528, the famous French surgeon Ambroise Paré described the public reaction: "This comet was so horrible and so frightful and it produced such great terror in the vulgar that some died of fear and others fell sick." The range of comet fears is impressive. According to Aristotle, the comet brings wind and drought. Among both the Greeks and Romans, "The comet was inevitably the presage of some cataclysmic event," states A. Barret. Josephus reports in his History of the Jews that prior to the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies, "a comet shaped like a sword" hung over the city for an entire year.
- According to Servius, the ancient and infamous comet Typhon produced terrible famine. The Anglo Saxon Chronicle recorded "firedrakes"--fiery dragons--"seen flying in the air" at the time of a great famine in 779, observing as well that a great comet appeared at the time of famine in 975. And so too does a comet bring great famine in the traditions of the Masai of East Africa.
- In Byrhtferth's Manual, published in the year 1011 [in England], occurs this description of a comet: "There is a star called a comet. When it appears it betokens famine or pestilence or war or the destruction of the earth or fearful storms." ... Nor is it surprising to find the rumor that the Great Plague of London [lasting from 1665 to 1666] was due to the appearance of a comet; or that a comet is also said to have accompanied the great earthquake at Lima, Peru, in 1746.
- Funk and Wagnall's encyclopedia [said] ... under the heading "comet" ... [they] have been thought to be connected with war, famine, the plague, the downfall of kings and monarchs, the end of the world, universal suffering, ill-luck, and sickness. [Don't forget the Aztec emperor Moctezuma's terror on the arrival of a comet.]
- Ancient Chinese comet lore held that "Comets are vile stars. Every time they appear in the south, something happens to wipe out the old and establish the new." In the language of myth that means the end of the world. Both the Sibylline Oracles and a Dead Sea Scroll (War of the Sons of Light and Darkness) present the comet as a sign of the Last Days--all of which sounds very much like the Aztec's comet-like plumed serpent presiding over the end of one world age and beginning of another. [The Book of Revelation mentions a dragon, symbol of a comet, involved in a coming apocalypse].
- The "portentous" news brought by the comet can be summarized as follows:
the comet foretells the fall of the kingdom; ... predicts the arrival of plague, famine, earthquake, pestilence; ... means the end of a world age, the arrival of universal darkness or night, the occlusion of the sun by chaos monsters, a victory (though temporary) of rebelling powers; ... forecasts the death of kings or great rulers; ... heralds cataclysmic wars. ... The things which ancient nations believed about comets are, in every case, inseparably tied to the story of one heaven-shattering, universally-remembered comet, an archetype in every sense of the word.

http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1997.22.txt
- The comet means the death of great leaders. The idea appears to be as old as Babylonian astronomy, which associates a comet with the death of kings. The Roman poet Lucan offers a vivid description of cometary disaster, when the skies, "blazing fire," bring forth the "hair of the baleful star--the comet which portends changes to monarchs." So too did the Greek mathematician and astronomer Ptolemy connect the comet with the death of kings. The profound fears of royalty at the appearance of the comet continued well into the present era. The third century Christian theologian Origen cites the comet as heralding a change in dynasties. It was a common "belief that the comet of AD 336 had announced the death of the great emperor Constantine."
- In connection with the assassination of Julius Caesar, it was said, a comet had appeared in the sky. On learning of a comet Nero was seized with fear, and chroniclers assure us that a comet preceded the death of the Emperor Macrinus in A.D. 218, and of Attila in A.D. 451. ... The Carthaginian general Hannibal in 184 B.C. was warned that a "recently- discovered comet meant he would die soon." He answered the comet by committing suicide. [Many other examples of similar fears about comets are given from the last 2 millennia too.] ...
- Consider the famous case of Julius Caesar. On the death of that ruler, according to the Latin poet Ovid and others, a great cometary spectacle occurred in the sky, as Caesar's soul itself rose as a comet. [Aristotle said] the Greek philosopher Democritus held that comets were the souls of men of renown. ... Among the Polynesian Islanders ... a comet did not just signify the death of a king, [it also] meant the flight of the soul. [Mythologist James Frazer said] "a widespread superstition...associates meteors or falling stars with the souls of the dead. ... Robert Schilling ... [an] authority on the Latin goddess Venus, ... noticed a curious blend of two ideas: one that the soul rose as a comet, the other that the soul rose as the planet Venus. And the two ideas were actually joined as one, for the poet Ovid describes the soul as a flaming comet CARRIED ALOFT BY VENUS. In more than one instance the soul itself is celebrated as Venus.
- We are thus brought back to Moctezuma's terror. [An] explanation for his fear of the comet ... [is the Aztec] myth of Quetzalcoatl, whose soul rose as the comet-like Venus. If Quetzalcoatl's departing heart-soul provided a prototype of the comet myth, we do not need to look further for an explanation of the comet's relation to the "death of kings". ... And the comet brings the end of the world, because, in the death of the god-king and the departure of his heart-soul as a comet, a former world age ended catastrophically. ... We cannot understand the mythical age of the gods without confronting the "gods" as visible forms in the sky, forms that are no longer present. In all mythical systems the gods rule for a time, then depart amid celestial upheaval. ... An idyllic world, a paradisal condition, a Golden Age ruled by a former "great king" ... came crashing down in a world-ending disaster: wars of the gods, earthquake, famine, wind and flood, the arrival of universal night. Of this world-ending catastrophe the Great Comet Venus--the departing heart-soul of the creator-king--was remembered as both symbol and agent.

http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1997.23.txt
- To see Velikovsky's comet in its globally- defined and catastrophic role is to realize something overlooked by the specialists: that a planetary history we have forgotten will do more to explain the pervasive fears of ancient cultures than all of the more fashionable speculations combined. ... For centuries the priest-astronomers reacted with terror to any natural phenomenon that might suggest the return to world chaos. In what experience did this fear arise? Surely one way of illuminating the symbols of celestial TERROR is to consider the possibility of TERRIFYING EVENTS.
- "It has been clear to all serious students of Mesoamerican culture," writes David Kelley, "that there was an intimate relationship between astronomical knowledge [focused mainly on Venus], the calendar, and religious beliefs and rituals" [including their fears]. ... Must we assume unhesitatingly that the anxiety over Venus' movements arose under a tranquil sky? This unquestioned presumption of cosmic regularity is surely the single greatest obstacle to our comprehension of ancient fears.

http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1997.24.txt
- The ancient Mesoamerican astronomers, so admired for their accurate record keeping of Venus' motions, [did] not have Venus moving on its present course. ... They assigned an eight day period to the disappearance at inferior conjunction, which is close to that observed today. But, peculiarly, their manuscripts recorded a disappearance interval of 90 days at superior conjunction, nearly double the true value. Furthermore, they assigned unequal values to the intervals as morning and evening star: 250 and 236 days, respectively. In fact, the true intervals are equivalent at approximately 263 days.
- [As Velikovsky said about] recurring anomalies--[they are] the true key to discovery. ... The recorded anomalous motions of Venus in the ritual calendar ... [have a] more ancient Near Eastern parallel. ... The Babylonian astronomers, in the famous Venus tablets of Ammizaduga, recorded extensive observations of Venus' [anomalous] movements. ... In the ... Babylonian records of Venus, one encounters a 90-day disappearance as well! ... The [Mesoamerican] 260-day ritual calendar bore an extremely significant relationship to the myth of collapsing world ages, as we shall see.

http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1997.25.txt
- There is an ARCHETYPE of cosmic "darkness". ... Mesoamerican association of Venus with the eclipse and darkness has been documented by the vigorous research of Ev Cochrane. "Like most ancient peoples, the Maya considered eclipses of the sun to be a time of dire peril," Cochrane writes. "It was commonly believed, in fact, that the world might end during a solar eclipse. In the eclipse tables contained within the Dresden Codex, an eclipse is symbolized by the figure of a dragon descending from the glyph of the sun." On the relationship of the "eclipse"-dragon to Venus, Cochrane gives us the verdict of the eminent Mayan scholar, Sir Eric Thompson: The head of the monster is hidden by a large glyph of the planet Venus. ... The Aztec belie[ved] that during eclipses the monsters called Tzitzimime or Tzontemoc (head down) plunged earthwards from the sky. These monsters include Tlauizcalpanteculti, the god of Venus as morning star.
- The fear of darkness is not just the fear of being unable to see clearly. As concretely expressed in myths and rites, it speaks for a collective memory [of] a far greater terror, when the whole sky became the theater for the twilight of the gods.

HEROES OF THE ILIAD
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1998.14.txt
- Historians would have us believe ... that within Homer's narrative are embedded the accounts of actual historical personages, despite the fact that all efforts to find evidence for their historicity have failed. ... Helen was the daughter of Zeus. Her mother Leda was also the mother of the "heavenly twins", Castor and Pollux. (Indeed, more than one scholar has recognized Helen as a local transcript of Aphrodite, astronomically identified with Venus).

MORE THAN ONE TYPHON
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1998.07.txt
- [Cardona said:] All that can be said with SOME certainty, is: (1) that a comet does seem to have made its appearance in the sky during the Exodus; (2) that this comet was NOT the comet Venus; and (3) that an earthquake also occurred just before the Israelites left Egypt. ... While the comet called Typhon (that is, Comet Set [of Egypt]) and the GREEK Typhon were NOT one and the same object, it will turn out that the GREEK Typhon was also a comet. More than that, the GREEK Typhon will turn out to have been cometary Venus in disguise. The comet called Set, on the other hand, which the Greeks also alluded to as Typhon, was NOT Venus. ... The complication ... arose simply because the Greeks, for reasons of their own, referred to the Egyptian Set as Typhon [Maybe they equated all comets with the Venus comet prototype, as other people apparently did].
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby GaryN » Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:43 am

On the ATS web site, a member has an interesting post,"Sumerian accounts of devastating Meteorite impact", which looks at the Umm al Binni structure, and links to a pdf file, THE UMM AL BINNI STRUCTURE, IN THE MESOPOTAMIAN MARSHLANDS OF SOUTHERN IRAQ, AS A POSTULATED LATE HOLOCENE METEORITE IMPACT CRATER
Image
https://www.wits.ac.za/media/migration/files/382.pdf
I'd suggest that if it was an event linked to the Perseides meteor stream that it was not just an airburst from an incoming meteor, but the discharge of the meteor to the surface, electrically eroding the proposed impact crater and causing the effects reported in the Exploits of Ninurta.

An enormous hurricane, irresistible, went before the hero, stirred up the dust, caused the dust to settle, levelled high and low, filled the holes. It caused a rain of coals and flaming fires; the fire consumed men. It overturned tall trees by their trunks, reducing the forests to heaps, Earth put her hands on her heart and cried harrowingly; the Tigris was muddied, disturbed, cloudy, stirred up.

The birds there tried to lift their heads to fly away, but their wings trailed on the ground. The storm flooded out the fish there in the subterranean waters, their mouths snapped at the air. It reduced the animals of the open country to firewood, roasting them like locusts. It was a deluge rising and disastrously ruining the mountains.

Like an accursed storm, it howled in a raucous voice; like a gigantic snake, it roared at the Land. It dried up the waters of the mountains, dragged away the tamarisks, tore the flesh of the Earth and covered her with painful wounds. It set fire to the reedbeds, bathed the sky in blood, turned it inside out; it dispersed the people there. At that moment, on that day, the fields became black scum, across the whole extent of the horizon, reddish like purple dye -- truly it was so!


ATS post at:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1103730/pg1
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:17 pm

webolife says, "Traditions were passed down among the ancestors for a reason, which the [post]modern scientific community has intentionally and methodically [eg. through the public education forum] tossed off as primitive fear and superstition worthy of derision for about a century and a half, especially the last five or so decades since the revision of the Humanist Manifesto following WWII. These people [our ancestors] were brilliant, creative, resourceful, and conscientious in instilling in their offspring the recognition of the works of God in the heavens, and on the earth. Dismissal of these traditions outright leaves us in the realm of forgetfulness, revision, redaction, and frankly losing our sense of place in history and in the universe. That said, we must be watchful of the temptation to invent their original intent from the raw materials of our own preferential paradigms."


You really said it all.

The historical paradigm used by Velikovsky is exactly one of those attempts to frame all of the folk beliefs as nothing but "primitive fear and superstition worthy of derision," as you put it. And it does coincide with the philosophical commitments of the Humanist Manifesto-- which would require "tossing" the beliefs of people in their traditions.

Velikovsky was a friend of Freud's, and their views on history are that society is defined by how it represses unconscious hostilities and fears. This is called the psychoanalytic theory of history. It is one of about eight or nine ways of looking at history.

It is my firm conviction that this view is inadequate, anemic, boring to read, and it's mean to teach to vulnerable young people who cannot yet read the labels on historical paradigms. It is also easily shown to rely on omitting all of the outstanding and magnificent evidence which does not fit or aid in any way the psychoanalytic theory. People are not all terrorized and driven to wild panic and in bondage over generations to suppressed fears.

Three simple examples will show major exceptions to this portrayal of a terrorized panicked response to all planetary catastrophes. People who hold the psyochanalytic paradigm of history are sincere in the belief that they are holders of a special knowledge which will liberate humanity from superstition, heal them and stop them from revisiting their comet fears. Well perhaps we can return the favor and go a little way toward disproving this psychoanalytic Freudian superstition.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:59 pm

Inre: first, defining the historical paradigm of Freud:

"The fifth [of eight] is an even newer concept than the economic [Marx] interpretation of histry. Founded by Professor Sigmund Freud at the beginning of the twentieth century, this school holds that social institutions and human history are the result of a process fo repressing unconscious hostilities. Civilization, says the psychoanalytic historian, can be obtained only at the price of giving up the lusts that lurk in our unconscious--unbridled sexual gratification, murder, incest, sadism, violence. Only when man has mastered his impulses can he turn his energies into creative, civilizing channels.


Which impulses man represses, how deverely he represses them, and what methods he uses for his repression will determine his culture and his art forms, says the psychoanalyst."


~Max I Dimont, historian and author of Jews, God and History


Some may truly find this adequate. Some may not. Each of us should be honest enough with ourselves and others about our historical paradigm, because we all have one.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:58 pm

Skipping ahead to #9
“ It is my firm conviction that this view [“psychoanalytic paradigm”] is inadequate, anemic, boring to read, and it's mean to teach to vulnerable young people who cannot yet read the labels on historical paradigms. “ -BB


Mustn’t one also take some care not to simply replace yesterday’s hip analytic paradigm with some other currently popular social view ?

Just comparing Man’s logged histories with individual lives (from infant to elder), it's usually true that
“People are not all terrorized and driven to wild panic and in bondage over generations to suppressed fears.”
(ignoring the irrational fears of snakes, comets and the “Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds” . :D

People more commonly tend to just forget really unpleasant experiences and replace those uncomfortable (sometimes collective) images, with more palatable scenarios and memoria .
We’ve all done it, right ?

http://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary-Pop ... 0486432238
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby jacmac » Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:28 pm

Brigit Bara said:
The historical paradigm used by Velikovsky is exactly one of those attempts to frame all of the folk beliefs as nothing but "primitive fear and superstition worthy of derision," as you put it.


I get it you don't like Freud's work. I DON"T EITHER, but:
Are you not throwing out the baby with the bath water ?

In my reading of several of Velikovsky's books he was attempting to tell us that what the general public calls MYTH actually happened; that we are to believe the old stories as fundamentally true. That is not dismissing folk beliefs, it is elevating them to a higher level of importance. I do not understand your negative comments about Dr. Velikovsky.

His work tells us that:
The ancient cataclysmic MYTHS actually happened..
These events instilled great fear in the people(with very good reason).
The reality was lost to history, but some fears linger(fear of comets for ex.)

He exposed the uniformitarian standard model as untenable. His version of our shared history is what is important.
That he might have used some of Freud's language, in explanation of why history became MYTH, is not important to me at all.

Do you have a different explanation of why history became MYTH ?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:38 pm

Re Velikovsky
Re BB's criticism of Velikovsky, I agree with Jacmac, obviously. Otherwise, I wouldn't be quoting Talbott quoting Velikovsky & others etc. I don't know that Velikovsky was a Freudian. I think he studied under a student of Freud, but then Jung also studied under Freud and wasn't much of a Freudian, that I know of. Velikovsky doesn't seem to have looked down on the ancients as dummies as BB seems to think. Velikovsky provided great insights into how to interpret ancient myths more rationally, using comparative methods across cultures.

Panic
If global cataclysms were to occur in our time, I'm sure people would tend to panic just as they seem to have panicked in ancient times. Some people would believe it to be the judgment coming as punishment for people's sins. Others would realize it's just our bad luck to be in the way of a passing asteroid or other object. Some people in ancient times may have realized the objects in the sky were inanimate, but most of the most ancient ancients recorded their beliefs that some of the planets were then close by and appeared like powerful and reckless gods. And we have abundant evidence that there were global cataclysms, as has been covered in this thread. We're attempting to determine the cause and it's worth listening to the ancients themselves to see what they said about it, and most of them obviously blamed Venus, which they said was a comet when it brought cataclysm to Earth.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:37 pm

Ice age DNA shows asians in Europe:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 150602.htm

Pretty good evidence of ancient cataclysm and subsequent population movement.
Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:38 pm

Velikovsky was a psychoanalyst. His approach to myths, legends, and sacred texts are the same as those of a doctor who is trained to ask the patient a series of questions in order to find out the unconscious, hidden fears and urges which are unresolved and are driving his behavior. The behavior itself is viewed by the doctor (and possibly the patient, but possibly not) as irrational and counterproductive in some way.

This method of examination of myths and sacred texts has obvious limitations. There are methods of interviewing witnesses and patients which are very ineffective. The problem is that the psychoanalyst looking for something will invariably ask leading questions, loaded questions--and is an all around terrible investigator. In his own professional opinion, he is justified in interrupting and dicing up the statements of the witness because he believes that he alone knows what happened, and must be the interpretor of submerged, forgotten experiences.

Here the psychoanalytic historian assumes that the patient is traumatized by the fear of comets, Venus, and planets getting out of their order. In all cases, the expert asserts, the response to the trauma is to invent gods, build temples, and make sacrifices. The thesis is, "Since the people have gods and beliefs regarding right and wrong, they are plainly reenacting unconscious fears and anxieties about the planetary disasters. They think they did something wrong to displease these gods, but it was really just a close approach with a planet." He interprets symbols, reads between the lines, examines the quaint, parochial little patient, takes what he needs, and he finds: Venus and Jupiter, perhaps Saturn in very bad cases. The outpouring of myth, building of monumental structures, and creating of ritual are the resulting unconscious behavior. These are mechanisms used to ward off the fear of another planetary close encounter with Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Mars and possibly Mercury.

Now I hope I have made a fair characterization, without any mustard on it, or any disrespect towards the psychoanalyst, Dr. Immanuel Velikovsky.

I will now attempt to bring you three examples of cultures who did not in any way respond with monumental structures, incomprehensible rituals, and unreasonable taboos. Nor were they ignorant of the nature of the catastrophe they had experienced. Their experiences and beliefs are contained in their sacred texts, but their response is entirely different to anything that could be characterized as post traumatic stress disorder. These are the people who have been omitted [or totally misrepresented and dishonestly quoted] from the study because they responded differently, and because they do not really require any secret sauce from a psychoanalyst.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:11 pm

First example:

The "Solon, Solon, you Greeks are such children" quote:


"There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father’s chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore" ~Plato, [reporting a remark from an Egyptian to a Greek named Solon]


Now I will provide a quote from the Book of [2] Kings. This clearly illustrates a widespread practice in the ancient world of going to high places to make sacrifices to objects in the solar system:

5 Then he removed the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense on the high places in the cities of Judah and in the places all around Jerusalem, and those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations, and to all the host of heaven. 2 Kings 23:5


This affirms that planets and other bodies were indeed worshipped compulsively by some cultures. But here we see that the pre-classical Aegean [and other Mediterranean] civilizations had awareness of the planetary chaos spoken of in their own myths. And we see that this illuminates the verses which prohibit the urge to worship the "sun, moon, constellation, and the host of heaven."

Therefore, this Solon statement is one exception to the psychoanalytic model of fearful response and compulsive, unconsciously driven behavior.
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:27 pm

moses wrote:Ice age DNA shows asians in Europe:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 150602.htm

Pretty good evidence of ancient cataclysm and subsequent population movement.
Cheers,
Mo

From the article:
mitochondrial genomes of 35 hunter-gatherer individuals who lived in Italy, Germany, Belgium, France, the Czech Republic, and Romania from 35,000 to 7,000 years ago.
A sample group of 35 and a guesstimated time-span covering 28,000 years and a geographical spread the breadth of Europe.
mitochondrial DNA of three individuals who lived in present-day Belgium and France
Now down to 3 individuals and a small area of NW Europe.
The researchers say the discovery of this maternal lineage in Europe in the ancient past now suggests instead that all non-Africans dispersed rapidly from a single population, at a time they place around 50,000 years ago. Then, at some later stage, the M haplogroup was apparently lost from Europe.
Figure of 50,000 years conjured up out of nowhere.
The researchers say their biggest surprise, however, was evidence of a major turnover of the population in Europe around 14,500 years ago, as the climate began to warm.
Figure of 14,500 years conjured up from nowhere and climate change introduced also from nowhere.
The researchers say the next step is to construct a more comprehensive picture of the past by analyzing the complete genomes of these ancient individuals along with additional specimens representing more times and places.
This should have been the first step.
All that from someone's teeth. They say you can tell a lot from a person's smile but I had no idea....
Another thought: our ancestor's didn't seem to do anything unless there were a lot of zeros in the dating.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:38 pm

"Solon, Solon, you Greeks are such children"
Solon: "Liar, liar, yer bum's on fire, ner-ner-na-ner-ner"
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:18 pm

Brigit, I don't find your insults of Velikovsky to be realistic or helpful. How about discussing Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm?
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:07 pm

So it's thunderbolts you want? then I shall speedily make it so.

Second example: The Zarathustrian Bundahishn

” And the evil spirit thought that the creatures of Ohrmazd were all rendered useless except Gayomard; and Astwihad with a thousand demons, causers of death, were let forth by him on Gayomard. 22. But his appointed time had not come, and he (Astwihad) obtained no means of noosing (avizidano) him; as it is said that, when the opposition of the evil spirit came, the period of the life and rule of Gayomard was appointed for thirty years.

24.
And, afterwards, he (the evil spirit) came to fire, and he mingled smoke and darkness with it. 25. The planets, with many demons, dashed against the celestial sphere, and they mixed the constellations; and the whole creation was as disfigured as though fire disfigured every place and smoke arose over it. 26. And ninety days and nights the heavenly angels were contending in the world with the confederate demons of the evil spirit, and hurled them confounded to hell; and the rampart of the sky was formed so that the adversary should not be able to mingle with it.”


Now here is an example of planetary catastrophe which needs no professional analyst, and has survived through 3500 years.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:52 pm

Ahura of the fire

As a reference link to the above post was inadvertantly left out (Freudian slip?); Eye, as your BB (best buddy), will provide one, free of
Ea, Asur, Asur, Ashur, Osiris, and any ancillary Mardukian charge.

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Languages ... ahishn.htm

The Bundahishn is the concise view of the world, and the battle of the forces of Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu for the hegemony of the world, and consist of three main themes: creation, the nature of earthly creatures, and the Kayanians.[3] The compiler does not name individual sources; but claims an encyclopedic knowledge of the Zand, and exemplifies excellently the process whereby treatises on chosen themes were created out of the scriptures.

According to Bundahishn the first 3,000 years of the cosmic year, Ahura Mazda created the Farahvashis and conceived the idea of his would-be creation. He used the insensible and motionless Void as a weapon against Angra Mainyu, and at the end of that period, Angra Mainyu was forced to submission and fell into a stupor for the next 3,000 years. Taking advantage of Angra Mainyu's absence, Ahura Mazda created the Amesha Spentas (Holy Immortals), along with the material world, consisting of the sky, waters, earth, plants, the sacred white bull called Parvin, and Q-Mars, the cosmic man. What's more, he permeated his kingdom with truth in order to prevent Angra Mainyu from reaching and destroying it.


btw, what is proposed to be the source of that catastrophe you mention ?
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