Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 24, 2016 3:39 pm

Gordon said: There are no indicators from fossil evidence or otherwise that these "shield" regions were areas where anything survived the cataclysm; however the lack of fossils and the metamorphic/intrusive morphologies of Precambrian sequences in general do place them as being formed before the deluge, possibly primordial, or as vestiges of the original uplift of the continents above the primordial sea.

Since the Great Flood likely deposited nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata, why did it not deposit anything in the numerous shield regions? Since Noah's ark is likely to have referred to the Saturn Configuration, the actual survival of humans and animals would be likely due to one or two of two possibilities:
1. the Flood did not cover the entire surface of the Earth (some or all of the shield regions);
2. humans in many locations independently took to boats and ships for the duration of the Flood and animals lived on some of the ships and/or on floating mats of logs and debris.
Any comments?

Sea Smith, thanks for the links regarding the Indian Ocean Gravity Map. I passed them on to Mike Fischer.

Grey Cloud, do you also respect Vine Deloria? He was interested in the Saturn Theory.
Lloyd
 
Posts: 4382
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:09 pm

Grey Cloud, do you also respect Vine Deloria? He was interested in the Saturn Theory
. Haven't read anything of his I'm afraid. Only ever seen his name mentioned once or twice.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:03 am

Lloyd,

The shield regions are Pre-Cambrian exposures that do show some large-scale erosive/depositional action, eg. drumlins on the Canadian shield in Ontario; just because there are no major stratigraphic sequences doesn't mean they were untouched by flood tides or currents.

I do not believe there is any physical evidence for human survival prior to the current era, but archaeology documents migrational patterns [eg. "Clovis" group] from the middle eastern sector to all other parts of the world.
Remember, fossil humans are a testament of death, not life.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2535
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:19 am

Webolife
I do not believe there is any physical evidence for human survival prior to the current era, but archaeology documents migrational patterns [eg. "Clovis" group] from the middle eastern sector to all other parts of the world. I would challenge the highlighted statement. Upon what evidence is it made?


Remember, fossil humans are a testament of death, not life
Similar problem to the biblical deluge here. What evidence do you have that all these fossilised humans died at the same time or that they, all or any of them, died by drowning?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:00 am

Perhaps I should have said "genographics" instead of archaeology... I think the two disciplines are mutually supportive, however. Have you read this:

The Genographics Project
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/human-journey/

Also, who said humans all died by drowning, or that they died simultaneously?
But I generally rely on the biblical account, which says the flood event [complex] wiped out all but a family of humans.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2535
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:56 pm

Come on now Webolife, you are clutching at straws here. That part of E Africa is about as far from Sumer as I am in the UK. You agree with their migration map while dismissing their timeframe. The history (and archaeology) of the Middle East is a story of peoples entering the region not leaving it (unless they get kicked out).
I thought that this 'out of Africa' theory had died long ago. It is based on the premise that the oldest remains found to date are in fact the remains of the oldest 'humans'. It aint necessarily so - especially as they have not searched anywhere near the majority of the planet's land area (and then there is the lands that have become submerged and the remains which didn't get fossilised or got fossilised but didn't survive to the present).
DNA is interpreted through the lens of Darwin's theory which I believe you do not subscribe to. I have no time for Darwin nor do I have any for the DNA circus. They have been doing 'science by press-release' for decades now, hardly a week goes by without some headline grabbing fantasy.
Also, who said humans all died by drowning, or that they died simultaneously?
But I generally rely on the biblical account, which says the flood event [complex] wiped out all but a family of humans.
I will rephrase: what evidence do you have of cause of death for any of them and what evidence for when they died, both in absolute terms or relative to each other? And as you brought up the biblical account: what evidence do you have that the biblical account is any more accurate or reliable than any of the other flood stories from around the world?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:25 pm

Perhaps it was careless of me to reference that National Geographic site. My interest is primarily their unification of the migrating people groups to a relatively small number of "clans", and the general shape of their migration pattern.
I actually agree with you about the East Africa vs. Sumer dichotomy; I see Sumer as the central distribution region. I also agree with you that the rough and presumptive radiocarbon and genetic drift timeframes are off. I have a "What if..." attitude toward the use of the biblical record as a framework for earth history, and have built my alternative modeling on that premise. I see value in other cultural mythologies; but that is your realm of expertise, not mine, so for now I am content to read your intelligent synopses and critiques, and see what new info I can glean from that.
My finding is that there are relatively few [perhaps dozens of] good examples of fossilized pre-Flood humans [or from another approach, few of them got fossilized], and how they died would be largely a historical tradition, rather than a certainty based on geologic evidence beyond that their fossils are generally found in sedimentary deposits. You have undoubtedly found from my previous posts that I view the flood as a complex of highly hazardous happenings, not the least of which may have been death by drowning.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2535
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:17 pm

Recently came across this in the book I'm reading:
The strong visual component of Homeric similes stems mainly from lyric traditions that are still evident in later poetry, especially in the choral songs of Pindar and in the sympotic poetry of Theognis (Martin 1997: 153–66). A most vivid example is a simile that visualizes the Achaeans at a moment of defeat in battle in the Iliad by comparing
them to a blighted population suffering from the conflagration caused by a thunderstorm (17.735–9). The wording in this simile is evidently cognate with the wording that describes a cosmic flood caused by Zeus in a song of Pindar (Olympian 9.49–53; Martin 1997: 160–61). In general, the Iliad is pervaded by similes centering on the complementary themes of cosmic flood and cosmic conflagration, that is, of cataclysm and ecpyrosis respectively, and these themes are initiated by what is called the Will of Zeus at the beginning of the Iliad (1.5): ecpyrosis applies to both the Trojans and the Achaeans, while cataclysm applies only to the Achaeans (EH [= Nagy 2005] §§63–4; PR [= Nagy 2002] 66). In the Iliad, the fire of the Achaeans menacing the Trojans and, conversely, the fire of
the Trojans menacing the Achaeans are both pervasively compared to a cosmic conflagration expressing the menis ¯ ‘anger’ of Zeus (BA 20§§13–20; Muellner 1996). Similarly, when it is foretold that the rivers of the Trojan plain will erase all traces of the Achaean Wall at Troy, the flooding of the plain is described in language that evokes a cosmic cataclysm (Iliad 12.17–33; EH §64).
Cambridge Companion to Greek Mythology (2007), p61-2

Anyone for a game of 'join the dots'?
The Trojan War is dated to the same time as the collapse of the Bronze Age.
The destruction of the Aegean/Middle East region is variously ascribed to volcanoes, earthquakes, flood, drought, fire, humans and who knows what else. All these are recognised as factors but scholars cannot explain why they all occurred at more or less the same time.
This collapse was followed by a so-called 'dark age' which lasted anything up to several hundred years, e.g. in Greece. (The Greeks themselves do not mention this 'dark age' - not one of them).
Two of the first pieces of literature to appear after this dark age, where the Greeks lost knowledge of writing, are Homer's two poems. Both these poems are based upon events relating to the Trojan War. Homer is widely believed to have been a native of Ionia in western Anatolia.
Thoughout the Iliad Homer maintains a parallelism between human and divine actions.
As the above quote shows, the very language and and terminology used by Homer relates to catastrophism.
Obvious conclusion: coincidence :shock: :lol:

Not relevant to this thread but Homer's use of words when dealing with Achilles is entirely in keeping with my claim re alchemy/yoga.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:52 am

Grey Cloud said: I thought that this 'out of Africa' theory had died long ago.

When I looked at that map, it looked to me like the origin could have been Asia Minor as much as Africa. There are arrows pointing in that direction, Asia Minor to Africa, as well as Asia Minor to everywhere else. Besides, Egypt is in Africa and it's at least as old as Sumer, I've read. Both places seem to be origins.
Lloyd
 
Posts: 4382
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:41 pm

Lloyd wrote:
Grey Cloud said: I thought that this 'out of Africa' theory had died long ago.

When I looked at that map, it looked to me like the origin could have been Asia Minor as much as Africa. There are arrows pointing in that direction, Asia Minor to Africa, as well as Asia Minor to everywhere else. Besides, Egypt is in Africa and it's at least as old as Sumer, I've read. Both places seem to be origins.
Indus Valley civilisation is as old as Egypt and Sumer.
Most of the peoples who invaded/entered the Middle East seem to have originated somewhere in Eurasia. Where they hit the Middle East depended on which way they moved around the Caspian and/or the Black Sea. The various mountain ranges extending west from Iran to the Aegean play a big part too - only so many places they can be crossed.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:59 am

Grey Cloud says,
This collapse was followed by a so-called 'dark age' which lasted anything up to several hundred years, e.g. in Greece. (The Greeks themselves do not mention this 'dark age' - not one of them).


The so-called 'dark age' is the result of the refusal by academics to ever acknowledge the seafaring civilisation of the Canaanites/Phoenicians.

The ancient world during 1700-722 BC was very well-connected through extensive sea trade. The shipping lanes connected the Baltic, British Isles, Africa and India with the Mediterranean. This vibrant trade between nations, languages and tribes was accomplished mainly by the Canaanites/Phoenicians--who also developed the alphabet and the first books. This is the world of the Old Testament. It was a highly interconnected world. For example, there are faience beads and also necklaces which are of the Mycenaean style in Wessex burial sites showing that trade was already developed in the north in 1450 BC. Tyre and Sidon were great seafaring cities and are some of the most mentioned people in the Old Testament.

The enormous blind-spot exhibited towards the Phoenicians is merely academic tradition.

That reminds me, I was delighted by Lloyd's mention of the possibility of Canaanite trade in the New World. I think it is very possible that they had reached other continents, but of course that might sound really really cranky to say so. Lloyd mentioned that on the first page of this thread.
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
User avatar
Brigit Bara
 
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:17 am

Anyone for a game of 'join the dots'?
The Trojan War is dated to the same time as the collapse of the Bronze Age.
The destruction of the Aegean/Middle East region is variously ascribed to volcanoes, earthquakes, flood, drought, fire, humans and who knows what else. All these are recognised as factors but scholars cannot explain why they all occurred at more or less the same time.


Although I have not read Velikovsky, I was introduced to the work of Claude Schaeffer by Peter Mungo Jupp.
--Fortunately when he is not "blazing saddles" he finds time to write about these ancient disasters.

I will leave a beautiful Encyclopedia Britannica article about him shortly, written by a surprise author!
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
User avatar
Brigit Bara
 
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:35 am

Claude Schaeffer...archaeologist whose excavation of the ancient city of Ugarit at Ras Shamra Syria, disclosed a succession of culture from about 1195 BC back to the 6th and 7th millenia BC.


Moreover, the resulting knowledge of north Canaanite civilization helped to clarify difficult passages in the Old Testament.

...He found that Ugarit, a coastal city and port in ancient times, was quite cosmopolitan; in various periods it showed evidence of cultural influence from Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Hittite and Mediterannean civilizations.

In addition to excavating many archetectual remains and artifacts, valuable in helping delineate the city's history, Schaeffer found hundreds of clay tablets in cuneiform writing, believed to be the earliest known alphabet.


The writing was later established as being in a Semitic language related to Biblical Hebrew.

The tablets included texts of literary works of considerable sophistication and originality that also helped to establish the Canaanite origin of the stories of the Patriarchs in the Bible.

His many published works include The Cuneiform Texts of Ras Shamra - Ugarit (1939) and Ugarittica I-VI (1939-1969). [All in French]


Following WWII Schaeffer continued excavation in Turkey, Cyprus and Syria.

In 1948 he made a valuable contribution to the science of archaeology with the publication of Comparative Stratigraphy and Chronology of the Near East [in French].


~C.F.A.S
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
User avatar
Brigit Bara
 
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:25 am

Because of Schaeffer's work in more widely distributed areas, he was able to see common stratigraphy between the locations.

The significance of this development for accurate dating is astonishing to think about.

First, this may throw an enormous spanner in the academic dating traditions, who -- due to their own biases -- relate all dates to Classical Greek and Egyptian civilizations. That in itself is an enormous problem because if they have Greek and Egyptian dates wrong, the entire system falls.

Next, the disasters which befell these ancient cities left layers in the record which can be harmonized over wide areas. With today's electron microscope technologies, depositions can be identified with confidence, because as we know every volcano or high-temperature event leaves its own fingerprint, which is unlike that of any other volcano or high-temperature event.

Finally, the general silence about Claude Schaeffer is understandable when you consider that up to the time he had made his Comparative Stratigraphy, every scholar and academic was able to work in his own area, connecting shards as he liked.

And Claude Schaeffer was firm in his conviction: he had identified a precise year for the 1195 BC destruction of Ugarit.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
User avatar
Brigit Bara
 
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:00 am

Africa - who is in and who is out.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... an-genome/
Note that computes are involved in this - specifically, two different and incompatible programs and a script. Or looked at another way, we have a team of scientists who haven't got the wit to run a script but who can tell us who was moving in and out of Africa 100,000 years ago. :shock:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

PreviousNext

Return to New Insights and Mad Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests