Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:56 pm

1. Does Homer describe any real events? What is the evidence for this?
I work the other way around and take as a working hypothesis that he does describe real events. I then try to build a picture using Homer, other ancient texts and archaeology etc.
There is evidence from Hittite records that the Mycenaeans were at least known in NW Anatolia at that time.
In the Odyssey Homer describes an eclipse. 'Experts':
Physicist Marcelo Magnasco and astronomer Constantino Baikouzis of Rockefeller University in 2008 gave a date of 16th April 1178.
Professor Papadima, astrophysicist at the University of Athens Panagiota Preka, in 2016 gave a date of 30th October
1207.
NB: Homer could not have witnessed this eclipse as he was not around until several hundred years later. If Homer was not the witness, then they have no idea where the witness was located, so they cannot be certain that they have the correct eclipse. (They assume that Homer was in Ionia, largely because the earliest manuscripts are written in Ionian Greek - given that none of the MSS are thought to be actually written by Homer then I fail to see the logic).

2. When did these events transpire?
The various dates given in the ancient sources centre around the 1180s. Modern scholars agree with though they have managed to come up with a year which none of tha ancient writers used - just to show they are cleverer than them.
Modern scholarship/science has no tool which can finesse a date to a specific year, certainly not at a remove of 3,000 years.
Coincidentally, the catalogue of ships gives their number as 1,186.
David Rohl, mentioned by Seasmith and myself in previous posts, gives a date of 874 according to his New Chronology.
His website is here:
http://www.centuries.co.uk/index.htm

3. When were they recorded in written form
3a. If they were transmitted orally and then written down, what is the gap between the songs and the written version?

These sort of questions don't concern me, I view them as being more to do with Literature than History (the
disciplines thereof).
See 4. below.

4. How many versions of Homer were there in the ancient world?

Many. Peisistratos the Athenian tyrant, 6th century, collected and collated those he could get hold of when he was
assembling his library.
Scholars have applied the same philological examination to the Homeric texts as they have done to the OT and NT but apart from a few words and phrases have not found anything to suggest the work of more than one hand. Commonsense should have told them that something that has held its reputation as a literary masterpiece for over 2,500 years was not written by committee.

5. What is the value of Homer for the following areas of study:
a. understanding pre-classical Mediterranean "heroic" societies, which were arranged far differently than classical
Greek and Roman empires
b. understanding the intent of the author himself
c. understanding spiritual themes
d. understanding physical cataclysm described by the actions of the gods.

a) Before the non-expert Schliemann discovered Troy, virtually all of the European experts dismissed the contents of the Ilaid as pure poetic fantasy and doubted whether there was ever a poet called Homer. Trevor Bryce sums up the situation nicely:
"In other words, the Iliad is a story about a war that never took place, fought between peoples who never lived, who used a form of Greek that no one ever spoke and belonged to a society that was no more than a figment of the imagination of a poet who never existed". (The Trojans and their Neighbours. 2006, p180).

The subsequent hundred or so years of scholarly endeavour has shown that Homer was right on the money. Parallels with Mycenaean warrior-society can be seen in the much earlier Mahabarata from India and the much later Beowulf of NW Europe for example. Native American and Japanese Samurai would be other examples.
b) Homer was a philosopher so his intent would be to provide the means for learning (NB: this is different from
teaching).
c) I wouldn't use the term 'spirituality' - too vague and New Agey. As I mentioned previously, Homer is, among other
things, writing about alchemy (as it is known in the West or yoga as it is known in the East), this is a practical
endeavour, i.e. it is something you the individual undertake (by choice). One of its aims is to become 'born again' in
the original pre-Christian sense of the term. Having someone say some words and splash some water on you doesn't cut it. The first step is to contact Athene ;) (one eye for study and one eye for meditation As the Buddha says) then if you are good enough :oops: Hermes will contact you.
For a more accurate description read the Iliad from the point where Achilles is informed of the death of Patroclus and pay attention to the imagery used by the divine Homer (as he was known in Greece).
There is a close similarity between a philosopher and a warrior - both hold to, and live their lives by, a set of
values, even unto death.
d) I'll deal with this in a separate post.

There is a truly astonishing lack of idols. Hecatombs and offerings were done at the beach or in the open. In
contrast, later Greeks and Romans emphasized lavish temples/banks and huge sensual idols and carved images.

Whoa there, Bald Eagle - Homer is writing about an army in the field (Iliad) and a fleet returning home
(Odyssey) so the lack of temples is understandable in those contexts. Back home in Greece they had temples and idols though sacrificies were conducted outside. (Elf n Safety - you don't want to be in a confined space with a nervous bull and a large open fire inside is also not a good idea).

...But this order of local society is destroyed by conquering empires, such as the Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and also Papal Rome.

This order was destroyed by catastrophe - it is a constant theme throughout the Iliad. One of the ways this is
done is with the personal combats. Homer will give the home, source of its prosperity and lineage of, usually, the
loser. The point being, IMO, to show that this prosperity has been built up over generations but is about to be over
in the blink of an eye (both for the individual and the nation/society concerned). The old world is about to pass
away. Empires were one consequence of the new world - lands were depopulated and/or physically altered (for better or for worse) thus peoples moved and mixed and created a new dynamic.
I would change 'Papal Rome' to Christianity as Protestants have done more than their fair share of damage in Europe, the Americas, Africa and Asia.

Peter Mungo Jupp said recently, "His description of “the catalogue of ships” shows an in depth knowledge of the towns and navies of the Greek Mycenaean civilization. His grasp of human frailties matched Shakespeare’s."

I'm not a fan of Peter Mungo Jupp (I always think of Blazing Saddles whenever I see his name). Homer's knowledge of
geography extends well beyond Greece - consider the home locations of the Trojan allies and the various places named in the Odyssey. The catalogue of ships is just that; there is no great knowledge of anything naval or maritime.
Homer was a master psychologist. The psychological aspect of the Iliad begins with book 1 and the confrontation
between Agamemnon and Achilles. They represent two personality types - one, Agamemnon, is Everyman, the other is the Seeker. Both are kings, warriors, brave, intelligent etc but Agamemnon is a materialist, he wants to enjoy the perks while putting in the minumum effort. To Agamemnon the material possessions are the goal while to Achilles they are a consequence. At the end of the encounter Achilles throws to the ground Agamemnon's sceptre and says words to the effect that 'we have all got one of these'. What he means is that every person is a king/ruler of his or herself, or at least has the potential to be. It's a question of who is guiding the chariot: you or the horse? Intellect or passions (as the Greeks called them). Mind or body.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
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The great Way is simple
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:06 pm

Missed this bit:
What could a planet possibly be doing roving around at such a late date?
The same thing it would be doing at any other date. There has been more than one catastrophic episode.

See this post here and the one below it:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16025&start=90#p109760
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:07 pm

I'm not a fan of Peter Mungo Jupp (I always think of Blazing Saddles whenever I see his name).


Blazing saddles, is that right? Is that so?

Still, our Pom cousin with the dodgy knees will have to admit that his cousins in America and Aus have made out pretty well for a bunch of discarded Protestants and a penal colony.

Someone might have to send you one of these to keep warm during this amber alert storm. (;

Image
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:57 pm

Fine analysis Grey Cloud.

It is to be read and enjoyed. But I will make one teeny tiny clarification about the idols and offerings.

There is a truly astonishing lack of idols. Hecatombs and offerings were done at the beach or in the open. In
contrast, later Greeks and Romans emphasized lavish temples/banks and huge sensual idols and carved images.


Whoa there, Bald Eagle - Homer is writing about an army in the field (Iliad) and a fleet returning home
(Odyssey) so the lack of temples is understandable in those contexts. Back home in Greece they had temples and idols though sacrificies were conducted outside.


Obviously there is an insult to Athena's temple in Troy, so these do play a part. And the offerings are given by traveling armies. But in Book III, you see that the son of Odysseus arrives with grey eyed Athena in the swift black ship 8-) , to ask Nestor about the fate of the men after they won the victory over Troy. There, Nestor is in the process of asking for blessing and making an offering on the beach. He is joined by the nine settlements, each with 500 holdings.

This I think is a lovely passage. There were many people in the ancient world who placed no real emphasis on grandios buildings and who did not have idols. This is as opposed to the Greeks and Romans, who used the temples and idols to dominate the landscape, the economy, and to erase the local beliefs.

In fact, in agreement with the Book of Daniel in the Old Testament, I nominate Babylon, Greece and Rome as Ancient Global Cataclysms in themselves. At least hemispheric, anyway.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:03 am

There were many people in the ancient world who placed no real emphasis on grandios buildings and who did not have idols.
Agreed but a) 'temples' were often more akin to a college than a 'church' in the modern sense. The ceremonies were generally conducted outside; 'priests' were the lore-keepers as much as clerics. See Herodotus and Philostratus' Life of Apollonius of Tyana.
b) an idol (image) could be just a lump of stone or tree trunk. See Herodotus and Pausanius. Also consider the palladium and omphalos.
c) Temples were often built as models of the comos rather than as political statements. e.g. India, Egypt, the Maya, etc. Indian temple construction is a fascinating subject in itself. It is still done according to the ancient tradition.
d) With the notable exception of Judaism and Christianity, religious tolerance was the rule rather the exception in the ancient world.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 17, 2016 6:17 pm

Gordon
Re Flood Range
Gordon, do you think sedimentary rock strata locations indicate where the Great Flood occurred? And do you think where there are no sedimentary rock strata, the Flood did not occur? Here's a map of Precambrian strata locations in a light pinkish color, while sedimentary locations are light greenish:
http://higheredbcs.wiley.com/legacy/college/levin/0471697435/chap_tut/images/nw0167-nn.jpg
The site is: http://higheredbcs.wiley.com/legacy/college/levin/0471697435/chap_tut/chaps/chapter08-07.html

The main locations where Flood deposits are minimal or none are in much of eastern Canada & Greenland, Antarctica, eastern South America, southwestern Africa and other spotted locations in Eurasia & Australia.

If the Flood was not significant in those areas, then organisms could have probably survived there without an ark.

Sea Smith
Re Venus etc
You said: Look at the old Sumerian/Assyrian/Chaldean cylinder seals and it becomes evident the ancients knew that the planets revolved around the sun, before that knowledge was lost in some early 'dark ages'.

Of course, the early civilizations knew the planets revolved around the Sun, or at least around the Earth, when they rebuilt after the cataclysms. I don't think the knowledge was lost. But before the cataclysms, their ancestors knew of the Great Conjunction of planets and ensuing chaos before the planets were found in their new arrangement afterward, which the early civilizations recorded from records and traditions passed down to them. Si?

Brigit
Re Temples & Idols
You said: There were many people in the ancient world who placed no real emphasis on grandios buildings and who did not have idols. This is as opposed to the Greeks and Romans, who used the temples and idols to dominate the landscape, the economy, and to erase the local beliefs.

As Grey Cloud said, the priests were lore-keepers in part. The temples & statues were built in remembrance of the ancient sky as it existed before the cataclysms, because the ancients honored their ancestors, which they thought included the gods, which were planets and other phenomena in the ancient sky, which was remembered as a Paradise, which they hoped to recapture. Eh? After the cataclysms, I think matriarchies were common at first, maybe because there were mostly matriarchies before the cataclysms. But the post-cataclysm matriarchies tended to have sacrificial kings in honor of the gods who "sacrificed themselves" in order to restore the ordained heavenly order. The male priests eventually gained dominance, apparently, and made themselves kings who sacrificed children and prisoners instead of themselves. These kings became megalomaniacs in many cases. Humanity hasn't yet outgrown such mania, obviously.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:57 pm

Flood Legends From Around the World
http://nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html
I rearranged them to show them from East to West and North to South, pretty much.
D = Destruction by Water
. --- G = (God) Divine Cause
. --- ----- W = Warning Given
. --- --- --- --- H = Humans Spared
. --- --- --- --- ----- A = Animals Spared
. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- V = Preserved in a Vessel
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 32 U.S.A.- Hawaiians
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 33 Vanualu- Melanesians
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 14 French Polynesia- Raiatea
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 13 Fiji- Walavu-levu tradition
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 26 New Zealand- Maori
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 01 Australia- Kurnai
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 05 Borneo- Sea Dayak
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 09 China- Lolo
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 23 Malay Peninsula- Jekun
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 34 Vietnam- Bahnar
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 06 Burma- Singpho
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 18 India- Andaman Islands
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 19 India- Bhil
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 20 India- Kamar
D --- . --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 28 Russia- Vogul
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 21 Iran- Zend-Avesta
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 02 Babylon- Berossus' account
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 03 Babylon- Gilgamesh epic
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 11 East Africa- Masai
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 12 Egypt- Book of the Dead
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 15 Greece- Lucian's account
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 22 Italy- Ovid's poetry
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 35 Wales- Dwyfan/Dwyfan legend
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 17 Iceland- Eddas
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 07 Canada- Cree
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 08 Canada- Montagnais
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 29 U.S.A. (Alaska)- Kolusches
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 30 U.S.A. (Alaska)- Tlingit
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 31 U.S.A. (Arizona)- Papago
D --- . --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 24 Mexico- Codex Chimalpopoca
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 25 Mexico- Huichol
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 10 Cuba- original natives
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 16 Guyana- Macushi
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 04 Bolivia- Chiriguano
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 27 Peru- Indians of Huarochiri
35 -- 18 -- 17 -- 35 -- 24 -- 32 -- Total Occurrences out of 35


The G's and W's are irrelevant to me, but I didn't feel like making the effort to remove them.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:19 am

Interesting table on flood myths.

This seems like a nice juncture to ask a question about the use of myths to determine earth history.

Let's do a thought experiment. Let's suppose that there is a group of scholars and amateurs who use myths to confirm the previous planetary catastrophes and electrical exchanges. They find these motifs in the myths by carefully reading visual queues within the stories. They find electrical themes are found on every continent. Therefore all "gods" are planets. All people are basically worshiping Zeus and Ares. No exceptions.

Next we suppose there is another group of scholars and amateurs who read the myths and find plainly stated that there was a deluge and even perhaps an additional age when the earth was under water. These are not inferred by visual clues. These are taken at face value from the words of the myths. The flood themes are found on every continent. The electrical activity present in the same myths is easily understood as a way to discuss storms and lightning as we experience it today.

Now we continue our hypothetical, just for fun.

What if the first group says that there was no flood? They use visual clues to infer a totally different meaning than the plain language. The second group uses the clear meaning of the language, and shows that there was a flood, and the lightning themes are practical and straightforward references to violent storms, tornadoes and hurricanes.

To add to the mix, let us suppose that we have a third group of academics and historians who use the myths to confirm that there is always a superior caste ("Aryans" which means "superior caste") who invent the myths to keep all the natives happy and obedient to their superiors. These scholars find this is the case, no matter where they turn, whether it is Nordic, Asian, African or South American people who are studied. These also say that there was no flood -- that idea (along with monotheism) was merely passed around culture to culture, like a bad influenza pandemic, tracing back to the Sumerians or an overzealous sun-worshipping Egyptian Pharoah. The myths say that the superior caste are descended from "the gods." This results in a protected, unassailable caste which orders all things so that they can live in extreme opulence and luxury. This action of the superior caste in conquering the laity is their very definition of civilization itself. The "gods" then are not planets, and there was no flood, but somebody got to live in palaces because they made up stories about gods and demi-gods to fool people.

All are handling the same myths. In the absence of myths or actual writing, they all turn to imagery from various objects found in archaeological excavations. Each is fully confirmed in his own theory and has extensive evidence from 40 years of research.

Whatever myth each of these groups interprets, he is sure to know which data are bad and which are to be used.


Image

Who are the mythmakers here?!
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 18, 2016 12:41 pm

Something of a false analogy there. 'Floodists' cannot produce one shred of (extra-biblical) evidence that the world's flood myths all relate to one and the same flood. Lists such as the one posted by Lloyd are meaningless. I would wager that if one were to check the individual stories, many would be talking about a local/regional flood. Certainly the flood of Deucalion is specific to Thessaly and is confirmed by geologists. The Welsh flood in Lloyds list, if it the same one I am thinking of, refers to the sinking beneath the sea of a specific town and its immediate environs, not a flood as such.

With regard to the coffee mug: have you read 'The Hockey-Stick Illusion by A.W. Montford? Very interesting read.
I know Americans don't understand irony :shock: but I'll try any way: the hockey-stick used in the alarmist propaganda is an ice-hockey stick (as opposed to the type used by British schoolgirls in summer).
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
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The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:15 pm

'Floodists' cannot produce one shred of (extra-biblical) evidence that the world's flood myths all relate to one and the same flood.

~Grey Cloud

But it is fair to say that the myths do speak of water and floods rising to the highest points in their own region, don't you think?

I am not using an analogy when I demonstrate that every comparative mythologist is sure to find his equations and assumptions are affirmed, no matter what myth goes in. And it is at least a little amusing that the same people who rifle through everything to find planets cannot find water, and the ones who rummage around for water find it, but cannot see the electricity.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:03 pm

Brigit
But it is fair to say that the myths do speak of water and floods rising to the highest points in their own region, don't you think?
Not all of them by any means. Deucalion's flood was caused by a lake escaping from its location due to earthquake. I also mentioned the Welsh 'flood' which was actually about a town sinking. There is a similar French tale about Lys(?).
Even if they did all speak of 'floods rising to the highest points in their own region', it still doesn't prove that they all occurred at the same time.
Another point to keep in mind is that many ancient peoples speak of alternating catastrophes of flood and fire. That which causes flood comes from the direction of one constellation and that which causes fire comes from the direction of a different constellation. Of the top of my head I think fire is Cancer.

As I've mentioned, my current focus is on the LBA collapse. I do not see any flood there - electrics and lots of fire, yes.
I've just finished reading two books on the archaeology of the biblical lands. One of the things that struck me was that during what I would consider the catastrophic period (i.e. the end of the Bronze Age) YHWH is very 'hands on'. He is the one doing the destruction, e.g. the malarchy in Egypt, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, etc. Later, during the (post-catastrophic) early Iron Age, he does it by proxy, i.e. he works through the Assyrians, Moabites*, etc. Why would that be, one wonders.
*Moabites or Edomites or somesuch. The Judaean writers of the OT don't explain how come the Assyrians are sticking to lots of other people not just the apostate Israelites in the north. I wonder if Ashur knew his people were moonlighting for YHWH? :shock:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
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The great Way is simple
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Roshi » Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:55 pm

Flood stories from around the world:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html
Wintu (north central California):

People came into existence and dwelt a long, long time. Then one of them dreamed of a whirlwind, and the others said he had dreamed something bad. After that it blew, and the wind increased. The world was going bad. At noon they all went into an earth lodge. It blew terribly. Trees fell down westward. The one who had dreamed stayed outside and told the others it was raining, the water was coming, the earth will be destroyed. All the other houses were blown away. He came into the earth lodge and leaned against the pole. At last the pole came loose too. The one who dreamed was the last destroyed of all the people. The world was destroyed and water alone was left. After some time, Olelbes (He-Who-Is-Above) looked down all around and finally saw something barely visible in the north in the middle of the water. It swam around a little. It was lamprey eel, the first to come into existence, and it lay on the bedrock. On the rocks lay a little mud. No one knows how long the waters sat there. At last it receded to the south, turning into numerous creeks. A little earth came into being, and it turned into all kinds of trees.

Papago (Arizona):

Back when the sun was closer to the earth, Coyote foresaw the coming of a flood, gnawed down a great tree, entered it, and sealed the opening. Montezuma, who was the first person created by the Great Mystery, took warning from Coyote and prepared a dugout canoe for himself atop Monte Rosa. Only they survived the flood, which covered all the land. They met again on the top of Monte Rosa, which rose above the flood waters. To ascertain how much dry land was left, the man sent Coyote to explore. Coyote reported that there was sea to the west, south, and east, but seemingly endless land to the north. The Great Spirit, with the help of Montezuma, restocked the earth with men and animals. Montezuma, with Coyote's help, taught them and led them. Montezuma later became prideful and rebelled against the Great Mystery, thus bringing evil into the world. The Great Mystery raised the sun to its present height and, with an earthquake, destroyed the tower that Montezuma was building into the heavens, in the process changing languages so that people could no longer understand animals or other tribes.


Perhaps a change in Earth's orbit caused the flood? We have the ancient world with: gods walking the land, giants, a rain forest in Sahara, then suddenly - a great change. Not so far back - I heard there are rain marks on the Sphinx, also a most interesting read was about frozen mammoths, and evidence for the very fast cataclysm that froze them:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... moths.html

I am certain there was a civilization before ours, too many advanced ancient ruins: Baalbek, Sacsayhuaman, and too many things thrown out of official history because they don't fit.

For example, the strange Anasazi:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestral_Puebloans
a name which arises from the Navajo language. Anaasází, meaning "ancestors of enemies"

There are also stories about how native Americans fought "red haired cannibalistic giants" - these could be survivors of the flood:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Si-Te-Cah
According to the Paiutes, the Si-Te-Cah were a red-haired band of cannibalistic giants.[1] The Si-Te-Cah and the Paiutes were at war, and after a long struggle a coalition of tribes trapped the remaining Si-Te-Cah in Lovelock Cave. When they refused to come out, the Indians piled brush before the cave mouth and set it aflame. The Si-Te-Cah were annihilated.


Also - see the practice of elongating the skull. It's spread all over the world. Perhaps the ancient "gods" had those elongated skulls, and natives were trying to imitate:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ormed.html
The 1,650-year-old skull of aristocrat that was deliberately deformed to show her family's wealth is unearthed in France

Such an idea: "lets tie the child's head so it elongates!" does not come easily, and everywhere at once:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificia ... eformation
The practice of intentional cranial deformation is believed to predate written history; it was practised commonly in a number of cultures that are widely separated geographically and chronologically, and still occurs today in a few places, including Vanuatu.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:03 pm

Roshi,
Re the cranial elongation. Here in the UK we have a similar tradition today. Upon election all politicians have the complete contents of their skull removed.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Jan 18, 2016 7:13 pm

Cause of Great Flood?
Roshi wrote:Flood stories from around the world:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html ...
- Perhaps a change in Earth's orbit caused the flood?
- We have the ancient world with: - gods walking the land, - giants, - a rain forest in Sahara, - then suddenly a great change. - ... rain marks on the Sphinx, - ... frozen mammoths, and ... the very fast cataclysm that froze them ... - civilization before ours ... - stories about how native Americans fought "red haired cannibalistic giants" ... - practice of elongating the skull [to imitate] ancient "gods"

We've discussed quite a few of those in this thread, but not all. What conclusions have you been able to draw from all of your evidence? It seems more likely that tidal forces from a close approach of a large body caused the Flood, as I noted in a previous post.

Flood Myths
Grey Cloud wrote:- Even if they did all speak of 'floods rising to the highest points in their own region', it still doesn't prove that they all occurred at the same time. Another point to keep in mind is that many ancient peoples speak of alternating catastrophes of flood and fire. That which causes flood comes from the direction of one constellation and that which causes fire comes from the direction of a different constellation. Of[f] the top of my head I think fire is Cancer.
- As I've mentioned, my current focus is on the LBA collapse. I do not see any flood there - electrics and lots of fire, yes. ... I've just finished reading two books on the archaeology of the biblical lands. ... I would consider the catastrophic period ... (the end of the Bronze Age) ... YHWH ... is the one doing the destruction, ... in Egypt, Sodom and Gomorrah, Jericho, etc.
- 'Floodists' cannot produce one shred of (extra-biblical) evidence that the world's flood myths all relate to one and the same flood.

- When did the Bronze Age end? How many cultures have you found the myths in about floods and fire coming from which constellations? The chart I posted above is evidence of a flood that occurred at the same time in most of the world, since most of those myths have important elements in common: major flooding and people and sometimes animals being saved in a large vessel.
- Some cultures may have gotten their flood myths from other cultures. And it seems possible that there were vessels in several parts of the world where people and animals were saved from drowning. It's also possible that the vessel containing people and animals was an apparition in the sky as sometimes discussed among Saturn theorists. Gordon is the one who suggested that nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata worldwide were deposited all at once during the Great Flood, and that suggests that where there is no sedimentary rock on continents, there was possibly no major flooding, which means many people and animals may have survived in those locations, which are shown in the map below in the areas of Precambrian surface rock.
Great Flood Deposits
http://www.geo.msu.edu/geogmich/images/precambrian_rocks_and_mobile_belts.JPG
Image

No Consensus on Myths?
Brigit Bara wrote:- [E]very comparative mythologist is sure to find his equations and assumptions are affirmed, no matter what myth goes in. ... [T]he same people who rifle through everything to find planets cannot find water, and the ones who rummage around for water find it, but cannot see the electricity.

- I think there's a reasonable amount of consensus among Saturn theorists. They seem to agree that the polar planetary conjunction lasted quite a while, then the configuration destabilized and the planets and small objects in the sky appeared to behave chaotically. There were upheavals on Earth and a great flood about 4,500 years ago. Unusual electrical effects were seen. There was also rapid continental drift. An Ice Age followed. The planets soon found their orbital paths around the Sun; the Moon appeared in the sky and the new order prevailed. And civilization rebuilt in Egypt and Sumer firstly.
- Since nearly all the sedimentary strata were deposited by the flood and the fossils formed primarily at that time, the map above shows that there were several places around the world where there was little if any flooding and that's where people, animals and some plants survived best. Due to the fall of many meteors, the world's forests and grasslands caught fire, which led to coal deposits within the sedimentary areas. As Mike Fischer explains at http://newgeology.us , it makes more sense that continental drift didn't occur until a few hundred years after the Great Flood. And the movement of the northern continents toward the north pole is what froze the animals in the north. Velikovsky had thought that the Earth's axis had shifted, causing Alaska and Siberia to come close to the Arctic Circle, but rapid continental drift explains things much better than does a pole shift.
- The various theories seem confusing as long as you don't understand them clearly and don't find which ones have the fewest flaws and which ones explain the most observations. That's what I've been trying to work on here for the past few months and occasionally over the past few years on the forum.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby GaryN » Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:18 pm

The Great Mystery raised the sun to its present height and, with an earthquake, destroyed the tower that Montezuma was building into the heavens, in the process changing languages so that people could no longer understand animals or other tribes.

That's interesting, the story of Babel. Now how did that find its way to Arizona, and when?

From the coastal Salish of Burrard inlet.
Image
The terrible monster had heads at both ends, which were fastened to the rocks. No one
dared to come near it because all living things that approached it would curl and twist
up, and die instantly.

For the incredulous ones who doubt the truth of this story, the Indians will show the
rocks on either side of the Inlet which still bear the marks where Scnoki’s awful heads
were fastened. It is said that on the ground over which his frightful body crawled as it
travelled to the Lake, no living thing has ever grown. No blade of grass and no moss
can thrive there to this day. And that is the story of Scnoki.


I see the same thing along the Sooke river, and the reason nothing will grow is that the surface has been melted at such high temp that it is so smooth, amorphous, that nothing can get a grip. In places it can be seen that the smooth surface is just a skin, case hardening by ion implantation IMO. Even though well up from the river and never likely to have been water worn, I have slipped because it is so smooth, and even my indoor court shoes will barely allow me to stand on even the gentlest slope.

I'll contact the Burrard Inlet band and find out if they have images, failing that I 'd take a trip over there this summer. The Sooke band has nothing I have found about any possible electrical interpretations of the legends, but didn't bat an eye at my suggestion of electric serpents. This area is well above the river, and there is a dead-end channel with no water entering it, just up and out of sight. Nothing grows here either, or ever will.
Image
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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