Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:37 am

Athena was Venus, wasn't it?


Lloyd,
Do you mean maybe Aphrodite or Ashtarte, rather than Athena ?
Some have linked Isis with Venus, as well.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:54 am

seasmith wrote:
Athena was Venus, wasn't it?


Lloyd,
Do you mean maybe Aphrodite or Ashtarte, rather than Athena ?
Some have linked Isis with Venus, as well.

I'm guessing he meant Athene because that is what Velikovsky said.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:09 pm

Lloyd,

For Venus/goddess attributions, I generally go back to Mesopotamia, where written records began. From the earliest cuniform representation, the planet Venus could be linked the goddess Innana. The pre-Babylonian glyph, and her temple icon (the Gate Posts of Innana), could both be taken for cometary images.

http://enenuru.net/html/gal/urukprocexpl.htm

As we saw carved on the stone Kudduru page 5, the Venus asterism is represented by the ‘rayed disk’

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16025&start=105

and as a winged deity astride a lion or a bull.

https://magoism.files.wordpress.com/201 ... inanna.jpg

Innana was also mythical twin sister of Utu, the sun deity, perhaps for their fiery comings and goings ?


David Rohl, in his extensively researched and illustrated book,
Legend, The Genesis of Civilization traces all those OT, Egyptian and Mediterranean peoples (plus the four rivers of Edin) back to ancient Aratta (now greater Armenia). Also, by comparing the earliest Flood myths, finds the Ark landing Not on Mt Arat.
I’ve recommended his work before because he is not your average old story reseller. He has a UCL degree in Egyptology and Ancient History, has done a bunch of digs and expeditions and has worldwide museums access that many authors would give a first-born for.

Interestingly, he places the date for the Mayan (great time-keepers them) flood myth as fitting with the Sumerian/Uruk deluge at circa 3113 BC.
Presumably this would place an epic Venus appearance or two sometime in the Ubaid pottery era ~ 4500 - 3100 BC ?

Reading any history of the (many) early ‘Persian’/Greek/Roman wars, one will see that high Urartu/Aratta was fatherland, motherland and Holy land
for quite a few ancient peoples and cultures.

Image

is she bellowing in to a microphone ??
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:02 pm

Thank you so much for the Kola data Lloyd! It is so nice to have it at a glance in that format.

It confirmed my theory too. And Gordon's. Did it confirm anyone else's theory? (:
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Jan 12, 2016 10:18 pm

GaryN,

Here is a recent crater formed on the moon:

"On 11 September 2013 the "Moon Impacts Detection and Analysis System" (MIDAS) camera captured a bright 8-second long flash on the central nearside of the Moon. This was the brightest event captured so far by the MIDAS team, and they estimated that the crater should be between 46 and 56 meters in diameter.
Image


The LROC team targeted the reported coordinates (17.2°S, 339.5°E) of the flash and acquired several images over a few months until the crater was found in images acquired on 16 March 2014 and 13 April 2014!"
Image


One possible interpretation is that an 8 second electric discharge was sufficient to make quite a large crater! I personally do not think there was an impact, just a spark between the two bodies, but others may differ about that.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Tue Jan 12, 2016 11:16 pm

Grey Cloud » Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:29 am
Athena was Venus, wasn't it?
No, never, not in Homer or anywhere else. Her being born from the head of Zeus has nothing to do with planets etc it is purely metaphysical and concerns Mind and the Logos. This why she is the goddess of wisdom, warfare and weaving. The Logos cannot be subverted, ignored, bypassed etc -


This is the problem with interpreting great old literature by assuming that it merely conveys planetary encounters.

Grey eyed Athena in Odyssey has many ways of touching and intervening in lives. She inspires the young lad to leave home to find out if his father is still alive. She does not tell him that Odysseus is still alive, but tells him to go see a certain friend of his father's to ask him. "For he is an intelligent man and will not deceive you." Athena's concern is for the youth to become a young man of resolve and character.

She leads the young lady to go do laundry on the very beach where Odysseus will wash up on the shore, having been at sea for 20 days and in need of clothes. She also works by deflecting the ball the girls are tossing at the beach.

So Athena in many cases is serendipity or providence --those little coincidences-- that aids and assists those whose intentions are true, ie Odysseus and Penelope. Providential events or serendipity meant a lot in the ancient world; that is why they paid attention to the flight of birds and lightning strikes. It was a kind of guidance.

She also remarks that the children of great men rarely if ever inherit the excellent inward qualities of their fathers and mothers. This is an extraordinary remark, esp. when one considers that the most worthless, debauched, disgusting permanent aristocracies in Greek and Roman castes always claimed lineage from the Homeric kings or demi-gods. Well the Greeks originally knew better.

The Odyssey also clearly states that all of the men besides Odysseus did not make it home because they were not righteous. So certainly this book is about how men set spiritual laws into action, whether good or bad, when they make decisions. And nothing can stop them from eventually reaping what they sow. Battles in the heavens are primarily spiritual events, and also preserve the physical events. But I agree with Grey Cloud, the lessons of Homer are mainly metaphysical.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:41 am

I second Seasmith about David Rohl. I've read 'Lords of Avaris' but not the book Seasmith mentioned. Rohl actually grew up about five miles from where I was dragged up.

Seasmith, the lady in the image is not bellowing into a microphone, she is doing stand-up. Jewish comedy traces its roots back to Sumer. :D

Brigit,
Interesting little synopsis of the Iliad and Odyssey there but both books are much deeper and layered than that. The Iliad among other things is about the alchemical or yogic transformation of the character Achilles. The Odyssey is almost entirely a more detailed study of the same thing using the character of Odysseus.
All the female characters in the Odyssey are aspects of the same thing, i.e. the Goddess/Universe/Maya. When Odysseus finally reunites with Penelope he isn't in Kansas anymore Toto.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby GaryN » Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:08 pm

One possible interpretation is that an 8 second electric discharge was sufficient to make quite a large crater! I personally do not think there was an impact, just a spark between the two bodies, but others may differ about that.


With no operating seismic sensors on the Moon it is not possible to say if it was an impact. I agree fully with you that it was a discharge, and likely between a meteorite and the lunar surface, but again that can not be proven. The orbiting Apollo astronauts saw numerous flashes on the surface, but it seems they were crater rim discharges, and likely did not involve meteorites at all.
The Moon was so quiet seismically that they turned of the sensors in 1977. Only when they crashed equipment into the Moon did they get the "ringing like a bell" readings. The majority of craters were formed a long time ago when their was much more bombardment, according to mainstream, but that is just another theory.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:52 pm

Interesting little synopsis of the Iliad and Odyssey there but both books are much deeper and layered than that. The Iliad among other things is about the alchemical or yogic transformation of the character Achilles. The Odyssey is almost entirely a more detailed study of the same thing using the character of Odysseus.


If only I would have paid more attention in Lit class! (: Come to think of it, my English teacher could easily have said something similar...
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:31 pm

Now, lest we seem to be Lotus Eaters discussing Mad Ideas, several questions have to be raised if Homer is to be considered to be evidence of "Ancient Global Cataclysm."

1. Does Homer describe any real events? What is the evidence for this?
2. When did these events transpire?
3. When were they recorded in written form?
3a. If they were transmitted orally and then written down, what is the gap between the songs and the written version?
4. How many versions of Homer were there in the ancient world?
5. What is the value of Homer for the following areas of study:
a. understanding pre-classical Mediterranean "heroic" societies, which were arranged far differently than classical Greek and Roman empires
b. understanding the intent of the author himself
c. understanding spiritual themes
d. understanding physical cataclysm described by the actions of the gods

And apparently, though we may be the latest and greatest generation to study Homer -- we are not the first! (: Homer was used by the later classical Greeks in the education of young males of a particular caste. This required some training because even then some of the language was older, and no longer in use. Compare OE to today's English. Also, there are hundreds of wonderful, thought-provoking articles, books and introductions written on Homer which have accumulated over the centuries. And you have to admit, there are some decent tries. (;

So we first establish the value of Homer. To me, by far the greatest worth of Homer lies in the spiritual themes and the abundance of descriptions of heroic societies. These were structured so that :arrow: the land was divided by lots to families and remained in the families. :arrow: The king had tribute from the families by monthly divisions. :arrow: He was influenced and limited by the elders -- heads of families. The :arrow: king could be just or unjust, and wage wars for plunder or for defense. For example, Odysseus tried to avoid getting entangled in the wars of Agammemnon, but once he was serving, he did so with complete reliability. (He may have been sworn to protect the marriage of Helen before these events anyway.) The book may address the wicked problem of maintaining order and obeying the king and elders, even when the leadership may possibly be using a pretext to plunder another city.

There were :arrow: prophets who were free to speak the truth to the king. :arrow: The prophets were often used music to give their message. :arrow: There were laws which even the king was subject to, and there could be a removal of confidence by the elders. There were bards who sang about events of the past and about current events.
Odysseus had servants but maintained and worked his own property -- for example, he planted his vines so that he had grapes every month and was given fruit trees as a gift, which he planted himself. Trade could be made with other nations, and many properties had boats for crossing over to trade with another colony. :arrow: Women were highly respected within the home, in marriage and as daughters, and :arrow: enjoyed some mobility in carriages and in work. They may have been also literate. (This is not the case with Greek or Roman women in the Classical Age.)
(and owning property became a restricted right under Greek and Roman caste systems.)

There is a truly :arrow: astonishing lack of idols. Hecatombs and offerings were done at the beach or :arrow: in the open. In contrast, later Greeks and Romans emphasized lavish temples/banks and huge sensual idols and carved images.

So the take-home point is that the worth of Homer is beyond measure as a reflection of heroic society. I believe it has application to the way that the hundreds of European, Anatolian and Mediterranean societies arranged themselves -- even into the Middle Ages. It also has parallel in the Torah, and OT society in the long 400 year period before there were kings. I place arrows where the OT has a similar arrangement. But this order of local society is destroyed by conquering empires, such as the Babylonians, Greeks, Romans and also Papal Rome.

The use of Homer to prove planetary instability should come after the worth of the text is understood, and after the spiritual content is appreciated. Peter Mungo Jupp said recently, "His description of “the catalogue of ships” shows an in depth knowledge of the towns and navies of the Greek Mycenaean civilization. His grasp of human frailties matched Shakespeare’s."

Then there is the problem of the date of the Fall of Troy. Grey Cloud said 1200 BC. What is the date of the fall of Troy? What could a planet possibly be doing roving around at such a late date?
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:57 pm

Brigit,
Wow!
Give me a day or two and I'll answer your post. It will cost me a king's ransom in caffeine and nicotine but I'll do it.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:03 pm

Let's go for the date too Grey Cloud. Why did you say 1200 BC?

Glad you have the caffeine on hand. Please keep warm over there!
Image
SNOW warning raised to AMBER as UK to be hit by freezing gales and BLIZZARDS
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:44 pm

Great, I'm about where the -5 starts heading to the -8. It's going to be colder than a well-diggers ass, (to quote Tom Waits).
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:50 pm

Athena = Venus
seasmith wrote:Lloyd,
Do you mean maybe Aphrodite or Ashtarte [was Venus], rather than Athena ?
Some have linked Isis with Venus, as well.


I knew Velikovsky concluded that Athena was Venus, but the EU team agree, or did agree in 1998. See here.

THE COMET VENUS AND THE COMPARATIVE METHOD, by Dave Talbott
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1998.16.txt
- There is no one who has examined the astronomical associations of Venus with a more discerning eye than Ev Cochrane, publisher of the journal AEON. Here was his observation on [Athena].
- "On virtually every issue raised here, Velikovsky is absolutely right and Pitton wrong. Athena IS comparable to Ishtar in many respects [See Cochrane's article on Athena - AEON II:3 - for numerous examples and further evidence that Athena is to be identified with Venus]. Athena WAS identified with Anaitis and the Iranian goddess WAS identified with the planet Venus by the ancient Iranians themselves as well as by numerous modern scholars. ... Athena WAS identified with Isis, and the latter goddess was identified with the planet Venus by the authorities cited by Velikovsky. That Isis offers an Egyptian parallel to the Sumerian Inanna and Akkadian Ishtar nearly everyone agrees. If Inanna/Ishtar are to be identified with the planet Venus, as all learned authorities agree, then it stands to reason that the same holds true of Isis.
- "Moreover, the comparative approach will enable one to go far beyond explicit astronomical identifications, to confirm that ALL of the goddesses cited by Pitton - and hundreds of other goddesses as well - do fall under the Venus archetype. Planet lists and empirical astronomy came relatively late (as we should expect, since there WERE no planets moving on predictable orbits when the myths were born), and the fact is that most ancient tribes possessed no observational discipline for preserving the link of gods and planets. But are widespread cultures telling the SAME STORY in their myths and rites? If so, the Venus identifications affirmed by ancient cultures that DID develop the necessary disciplines are more than sufficient to make our case.
- "... Pitton is right that the ancient Greeks apparently never identified Athena with Venus. So what? The Greeks also forgot the original celestial identification of Apollo (Mars). As I have documented in "The Birth of Athena," to be supplemented in large part by my forthcoming book "The Many Faces of Venus," there can be no doubt but that Athena is to be identified with the planet Venus. The fact that Velikovsky deduced this identification solely from a comparative analysis of the Greek myths -- and with little help from the Greeks themselves -- says a great deal about his insight into the origins of ancient myth."
- Precisely so. The comparative method does not demand that every culture identify gods and goddesses with planets, since that would require astronomical knowledge that did not exist among most ancient peoples. But the comparative approach does work, and with surprising dependability. Patterns which would otherwise be missed can be tracked from one culture to another around the world, then linked to reliable planetary identifications within those cultures which developed sophisticated knowledge of the planets.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:32 am

seasmith wrote:
Lloyd,
Do you mean maybe Aphrodite or Ashtarte [was Venus], rather than Athena ?
Some have linked Isis with Venus, as well.


Lloyd wrote:
I knew Velikovsky concluded that Athena was Venus



Did you read the third post top of page, about Mesopotamia?
Having done lots of "comparative" myth studies, by going as far Back as possible in history, i've found it best to start in Sumer and its sheltering highlands; and for planet Venus, with Inanna.

By the time a thousand years or so has passed and the stories have been handed down over and over to the later tribes and nations etc. the anthropic additions, deletions, and distortions are considerable. The victorious kings appropriate and mold the deities to themselves and the losers are exterminated or assimilated forcibly in to the new temple.

Furthermore, each culture flavors the theistic brew with their own collective mindset. [ That's why they are called "cultures"]. The Greeks with their genius for psychology, the Vedics with Hindu style naturalism, the Romans with their goulash of empire and so on.
Yes, Athene still carried some DNA from Inanna/Ishtar ~plus several other female deities, just as Jupiter would bear the genes of El and Baal, but by classical times the actual planets have mostly receded into a geo-centric heaven.

Look at the old Sumerian/Assyrian/Chaldean cylinder seals and it becomes evident the ancients knew
that the planets revolved around the sun, before that knowledge was lost in some early
'dark ages'.
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