Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Mon Jan 04, 2016 1:59 pm

Brigit,
My comments were in response an earlier post in which a view of the OEC (Old Earth Creation) group was referenced.

I'm well aware of the gap theory as I held that view for several years; a lot of determination was placed on the Gen 1:2 phrase tohu wa-bohu which means "unformed and unfilled" due to the word-pair's later occurrence in Jeremiah 4:23, where it is used to describe the desolation that occurred after the Hebrews were invaded and taken away as captives. Despite numerous excuses for it, this is a violation of the hermeneutic of first mention, wherein later word uses are interpreted in light of original contexts, either as comparison or contrast, not the other way around.
Believe what you will, acceptance of this huge gap [which is largely defined by a huge gap in scriptural evidence], between the original creation of Gen.1 and the assumed re-creation events beginning in Gen 1:2, requires as Lloyd said above that all alleged "geologic column" data occur before the creation of Adam. Thus there cannot have been a worldwide flood of Noah -- it is relegated to a limited local mid-east phenomenon evidenced by a to 3 to 4-meter-deep mud layer found at a few archaeological sites -- and the statements of Jesus and Peter in the NT regarding it must be considered allegorical. (That's fine, if it's what you believe; that's where you stand, and this thread may have little to offer you.)
I would be happy to discuss other aspects of old earth vs. young earth biblical interpretation with you if are interested, but we should probably start a new thread for it.

Lloyd,
Regarding this Gap Theory, I do not regard the Talbot references you cited as bearing any evidentiary support for a long period of time between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2, but I would consider it as a possibility if the later deluge cataclysm remains intact. The second reference on the evolution of myth weakens my already noncommittal interest in the Saturn cosmology. For me, too much story is assumed on inconsistent evidence.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:37 pm

Venus Caused the Great Flood?
Human history seems to have started with an Age of Darkness, then the Golden Age, and then a catastrophe when Venus & Mars etc appeared to fight each other in the sky. I'm supposing that Venus, which appeared as a comet, came close to Earth and caused the Great Flood by tidal attraction. As I said before, though, it seems that other events, like rapid continental drift, mountain uplift, secondary erosion & flooding and the ice age, occurred a few hundred years after the Flood. Below is the first evidence I found online that a comet caused a Flood 5 thousand years ago, though I think it was 4,400 years ago. There's lots of evidence that the comet was Venus, which I may post later in part. The underlining is mine.

Did a Comet Cause the Great Flood?
The universal human myth may be the first example of disaster reporting.
http://discovermagazine.com/2007/nov/did-a-comet-cause-the-great-flood

Masse’s biggest idea is that some 5,000 years ago, a 3-mile-wide ball of rock and ice swung around the sun and smashed into the ocean off the coast of Madagascar. The ensuing cataclysm sent a series of 600-foot-high tsunamis crashing against the world’s coastlines and injected plumes of superheated water vapor and aerosol particulates into the atmosphere. Within hours, the infusion of heat and moisture blasted its way into jet streams and spawned superhurricanes that pummeled the other side of the planet. For about a week, material ejected into the atmosphere plunged the world into darkness. All told, up to 80 percent of the world’s population may have perished, making it the single most lethal event in history.

Why, then, don’t we know about it? Masse contends that we do. Almost every culture has a legend about a great flood, and—with a little reading between the lines—many of them mention something like a comet on a collision course with Earth just before the disaster. The Bible describes a deluge for 40 days and 40 nights that created a flood so great that Noah was stuck in his ark for two weeks until the water subsided. In the Gilgamesh Epic, the hero of Mesopotamia saw a pillar of black smoke on the horizon before the sky went dark for a week. Afterward, a cyclone pummeled the Fertile Crescent and caused a massive flood. Myths recounted in indigenous South American cultures also tell of a great flood.

“These stories are all exactly what you would expect from the survivors of a celestial impact,” Masse says, leafing through 2,000-year-old drawings by Chinese astronomers that show comets of all shapes and sizes. “When a comet rounds the sun, oftentimes its tail is still being blown forward by the solar winds so that it actually precedes it. That is why so many descriptions of comets in mythology mention that they are wearing horns.” In India, he notes, a celestial fish described as “bright as a moonbeam,” with a horn on its head, warned of an epic flood that brought on a new age of man.

Among 175 flood myths, Masse found two of particular interest. A Hindu myth describes an alignment of the five bright planets that has happened only once in the last 5,000 years, according to computer simulations, and a Chinese story mentions that the great flood occurred at the end of the reign of Empress Nu Wa. Cross-checking historical records with astronomical data, Masse came up with a date for his event: May 10, 2807 B.C.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:51 am

Here's the pdf with pictures and maps in support of that Masse article:
http://www.amostech.com/TechnicalPapers ... /Masse.pdf
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:56 am

2004 IGC conference - Florence, Italy
More interesting images from Bruce Masse, et al

http://permalink.lanl.gov/object/tr?wha ... UR-04-5676
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:23 pm

Lloyd says,
"Gradualism Fail
The GAPS theory seems to accept conventional dating of the Earth, fossils and rock strata, but those uniformitarian assessments deny cataclysms and I started this thread with much evidence that many phenomena date to about 4,400 years ago, the apparent time of the Great Flood. However old the Earth was before the Flood, the Flood itself seems certainly to have occurred at that time and the sedimentary rock strata seem to have been deposited at that time."


1. The Gap Theory as I have known it for the last 2 decades preserves the recent dates for everything that has happened after Genesis 1:2. The Deluge of Noah, well-attested in world legend, happened around 3500-3000 BC in my reading of Genesis.

2. The distinct rock strata go down farther than 8 km below earth's surface. So if everyone here requires repeated floods and water deposition to explain this, that is fine. There is water present at those depths as well.

3. I do believe that water was present when the sandstone was formed. But sandstone can be formed electrically and quickly. I have been working on this during 2015.

4. The rocky planets in the solar system all show extensive electrical scarring in the form of round and hexagonal craters. The earth shows a paucity of craters in comparison. There is instead extensive dendritic scarring. The only other planet that shows this filamentary scarring is Venus. Why doesn't Venus have craters? I believe holoscience describes Venus' unique scarring and attributes this to an extremely thick atmosphere. Therefore, earth's atmosphere was thick enough to prevent craters in favor of lichtenburg scars,

OR...

the earth was covered with water during the electrical exchanges between planets.

Water was present during the sedimentary deposition, and both the floods happened recently. I hope I have excused myself from seeming to say otherwise. The evidence for the waters covering the earth is that the earth is scarred differently from the dry bodies which have craters.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Thu Jan 07, 2016 8:41 pm

I'm well aware of the gap theory as I held that view for several years; a lot of determination was placed on the Gen 1:2 phrase tohu wa-bohu which means "unformed and unfilled" due to the word-pair's later occurrence in Jeremiah 4:23, where it is used to describe the desolation that occurred after the Hebrews were invaded and taken away as captives.


~Webolife's remark.

For the objective observer, I may supply these Strong's Concordance entries for the two words, tohu ve bohu.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... ongs=H8414
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... rongs=H922

In particular, tohu can be translated as:
formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness
formlessness (of primeval earth)
nothingness, empty space
that which is empty or unreal (of idols) (fig)
wasteland, wilderness (of solitary places)
place of chaos
vanity


This is fairly strong language! and its use as a phrase is always associated with disastrous, cataclysmic judgment.

I do not think that it was a necessary step in the creation, for a God of order, "in whom is no darkness or shadow of turning," to have had to make such a dreadful, confused chaos in order to create everything else.

For example, Isaiah 45:18 says the following:
For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain, [tohu]
Who formed it to be inhabited:
“I am the LORD, and there is no other.


But I do not mean to convince you, just to show that there is reason to read that He did not create it as "a void, confused chaos," or "without form." As long as each of us has this book and reads it for himself, and does not rely on a priest class of self-appointed experts for interpretation, and applies it to life with sincere love, then I think it will be always fine for people to have these kinds of differences on Genesis 1 and 2.

But this is for me the place of a former chaos in the solar system. It's between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. It was followed by the Deluge; then the Tower of Babel and confusion of languages; then lifespans diminished in years; then there were terrible disasters in the Mediterranean which are only referred to in the Bible as "famines" during the time of Abraham+Sarah and Joseph. Possibly the destruction of Santorini was this disaster, c. 1750, during the life of Joseph.
I hope you will not think me too terribly in error, but if so, at least we both were able to make our case with reasons and examples. That is all anyone can ask.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Fri Jan 08, 2016 1:32 am

Brigit,
Thank you for your thoughtful rebuttals.
I don't see myself as a priest or elite interpreter by any means, rather a questioner.
My training [major in earth science] and studies over the last 4 decades have caused me to consider the sedimentary strata to be of major significance in demonstrating the worldwide flood. The other inconsistencies that arise in the biblical record as well as the paucity of evidence for a global deluge if the strata are relegated to the "gap" create irreconcilable conflicts for me as I try to understand both the biblical and rock record, as well as the record of human history [and pre-history]. You've supposed that the flood erased evidence for EDM action during the cataclysm, but don't seem to be worried about accounting for the many other ramifications of a flood of the proportions stated in Genesis 6-9. So there's my perseveration in questioning your system. No judgment intended, and I agree that the application of the scriptures for love and life are of paramount importance, but I take them seriously for understanding earth history as well. Imagining a few billion year gap between Gen 1:1and 1:2 simply plays havoc with the rest of the Genesis account as I see it. Since the word pair "tohu wa bohu" only occurs twice in the OT, I find it difficult to accept the contention that the latter reference should be used to interpret the first, especially as the Gen 1 record gives no confirming indication of a judgment meaning.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:28 am

Brigit and Webolife,
If I may be permitted to step into the gap -
I only came across this theory a couple of months ago via the book by Custance and I also read a few criticisms of the gap theory. It seems to me that the issue is purely grammatical - does ancient Hebrew grammar support this arguement or not.
Personally I find Custance's arguements convincing for two reasons. First is the evidence he produces, both grammatical and historical. Second is that a gap between the two 'creation' accounts would bring the Genesis account more into line with the Sumerian/Babylonian account (Enuma Elish) from which it is obviously derived.
In the Enuma Elish according to modern scholars there are two creation myths, the first featuring Apsu and Tiamat and the second featuring Marduk and Tiamat.
To my mind scholars are wrong here as the first story is a creation myth but the second is the opposite - it is a destruction myth. In the first story Apsu and Tiamat create the world from scrath (there is no heaven Earth, mountains etc etc). In the second story Tiamat is on the rampgae and intent upon destroying an already existing world. Unfortunatley the first part of the second story has not come down to us so we don't know what has upset Tiamat. It should be noted here that Tiamat is tehom in Hebrew.
If the gap theory is correct then Genesis would be giving a creation mth (de rigour for ancients) and then picking up the story after the attempted destruction, whereas the Sumerian/Bablylonian account gives the creation myth and the attempted destruction.
A last point on the gap theory. At least according to Custance's interpretation, there is no given or specified time period between the two accounts. The grammar merely implies that they are not contiguous. That being the case then the gap theory does not support or refute either YEC or OEC.
Another last point (?) Custance's arguement does not rely on just the phrase 'tohu wa-bohu' but involves the use of a "Rebhia which is classified as a "disjunctive accent" intended to notify the reader that he should pause before proceeding to the next verse. In short, this mark indicates a "break" in the text". [Custance, Without Form and Void, p5. http://www.custance.org/Library/WFANDV/chap1.html ]

Brigit,
I strongly disagree with your statement that Noah's flood is 'well attested'. Firstly, Noah's flood is a re-telling of a Sumerian story from the Epic of Gilgamesh (as is the Tower of Babel) and you have no evidence that the OT account is more accurate or real than the Sumerian. Second, while there are indeed innumerable flood stories around the world you have no hard evidence to connect them with Noah. I wrote somewhere in this thread that there are three floods in Greek myth and they are from three distinct times and refer to theree distinct locations or regions.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby GaryN » Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:28 pm

@ Brigit Bara
4. The rocky planets in the solar system all show extensive electrical scarring in the form of round and hexagonal craters. The earth shows a paucity of craters in comparison. There is instead extensive dendritic scarring. The only other planet that shows this filamentary scarring is Venus. Why doesn't Venus have craters? I believe holoscience describes Venus' unique scarring and attributes this to an extremely thick atmosphere. Therefore, earth's atmosphere was thick enough to prevent craters in favor of lichtenburg scars,


I like that proposal. In a simple model, the moisture would limit the extent to which the electric field strength could build up, reducing the possibility of large lightning bolts occurring. The models for water with excess electric charge and how it interacts with dielectric surfaces is far from a simple subject though.
The meanings of some Bible passages with regards to the structures being described has always puzzled me. Here is one interpretation.
The Firmament, Third Heaven, and Structure of Things Biblical
http://www.kjvbible.org/firmament.html
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:45 pm

Thanks, Sea Smith, for the link to Masse's paper at http://www.amostech.com/TechnicalPapers/2007/Poster/Masse.pdf. By the way, I can't open the second link at http://permalink.lanl.gov/object/tr?what=info:lanl-repo/lareport/LA-UR-04-5676, maybe kuz the internet signal is weak here.

Masse apparently has a naive, very low opinions of Velikovsky and others. Here's an interesting section from the first paper.

6. MYTH, ORAL TRADITION AND IMPACTS
Science views mythology and oral history with suspicion and contempt. This was fueled by the mid-20th century polemics of Immanuel Velikovsky and others who unsystematically used myths torn from their historical contexts in order to “prove” specious theories regarding social and natural history and the laws of physics. Fortunately, the nascent disciplines of geomythology [17, 18] and traditional astronomy [19, 20] have begun to provide a different and more scientific perspective on mythology and oral history. For example, it can be demonstrated that ancient Hawaiians were skilled observers and recorders of transient celestial phenomena including comets, supernovae, variable stars, meteor storms, eclipses, and even auroral substorms [19, 20]. Due to the need to perpetuate the lineage, power, and sanctity of royal chiefs and priests, these celestial observations were woven into the supernatural details of myths associated with chronologically-ordered Hawaiian chiefly genealogies. The end result is that we can demonstrate the accuracy of these observational records through more than 1500 years of oral history by matching the myth storylines with the records of transient celestial events historically recorded in Asia, the Middle East, and Europe, as well as with reconstructible classes of events such as eclipses and planetary conjunctions. Equally remarkable is traditional iconography. In the early 1820s the Hawaiian war god, Ku, was described to the first missionaries as having the appearance of a tailed comet. The few surviving images of Ku (Fig. 16) closely resemble the nucleus of a near-Earth comet, such as the hand-drawn telescopic image of Comet Donati 1861 (Fig. 17). Even more intriguing is the fact the two hair/headdress styles of the 100 or so surviving Ku images (Fig. 18, 19) likely reflect the Hawaiian observation of pre- and post-perihelion comet tails (Fig. 20). It turns out that the rest of the world likewise has a rich mythology, and that cosmic impacts are among the natural phenomena encoded in myth [2, 8, 9, 11]. However, it is important to emphasize that while myth is useful for model building and providing details not captured in historic records, it cannot itself take the place of hard physical data.


By the way, here's an image of the god, Ku:
http://fluxhawaii.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/ku-sketches.jpg
at this site: http://fluxhawaii.com/the-last-statues-of-ku/
Compare to Comet Donati at:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Comet_Donati_by_Bond_1858.jpg
Last edited by Lloyd on Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:17 pm

Well, it looks like the Gap theory doesn't necessarily divide us as much as I initially thought.

Survey?
Can I get everyone's statements on what you think are the time frames and natures of the most recent global cataclysms (and maybe what your main sources are)?

For example, when did the following occur in years BP (before present) and for what duration in years? (Events are in reverse alphabetical order.)

S: Sedimentation;
O: Other;
M: Mountain Building;
I: Impacts;
IA: Ice Age;
H: Conflagration (great heat and fire);
F: Flood.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:35 pm

Brigit,
I would like to reiterate my appreciation for your thoughtfulness about the scriptural case for earth history.
I want to focus on the one contention [ie. the gap] I have in order to possibly establish an understanding between us. Would you say that you envision the "geologic column" existing in the "gap", and/or do you attribute the epochal ages of the standard model to those strata? Do you believe in theistic evolution, or a variant of it such as progressive creationism? In other words do you feel there is a need to accommodate the standard billions of years of geologic history into the scripture frame?

Regardless of which way you answer that set, are you familiar with Guy Berthault's stratigraphy work? Are you familiar/conversant with radiometric dating methodology and assumptions?
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:54 am

Grey Cloud » Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:28 am

Brigit and Webolife,
If I may be permitted to step into the gap -


Thank you for stepping in the gap Grey Cloud, how nice! Now maybe I can produce some sort of olive branch for you regarding the well-attested flood.

It will take a moment to get something to you.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:18 pm

Would you say that you envision the "geologic column" existing in the "gap", and/or do you attribute the epochal ages of the standard model to those strata?

~Webolife

Hi webolife,

The strata go down as far as drill has ever bored. I think this means that floods are not sufficient to explain the rock strata of earth, at least subsurface formations. I think they are all electrically deposited, all of them. I do not think water and floods can explain strata reaching down as far as 7+ miles. The surface formations are also formed electrically, but water had to have been present. If water were not present, earth would be covered with craters and not dendritic scars.

So to answer your question, I reject the standard model of geology, and the time scales, completely. Thank you for asking. And the first book of the Bible I read was John, not Genesis. I have read the rest of the books for 26 years and it has given me a great interest and a lot of enjoyment in the subjects of archaeology, paleontology, biology, astronomy, and ancient civilizations. It has been incredible. I have had a wonderful life since reading and believing the Book of John.

I understand you are a geologist and teacher. What areas of the country do you like to study webolife?
Last edited by Brigit Bara on Sat Jan 09, 2016 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:41 pm

I like that proposal. In a simple model, the moisture would limit the extent to which the electric field strength could build up, reducing the possibility of large lightning bolts occurring. The models for water with excess electric charge and how it interacts with dielectric surfaces is far from a simple subject though.


~GaryN

Hi GaryN. Historical topological maps that supported water erosion are interesting, but now that there are satellite views it is possible to see the lichtenburg figures on every continent. The lichtneburg figures are ubiquitous, even on the highest desert plateaus where there has not been water for eons. So it is possible to still say that water flowing downhill will always create the dendritic forms as we observe them.

But alternatively, the earth has been just as severely lashed and scarred by electrical forces as the other planets and moons. This could explain dendritic forms. We see these forms in every day life. Fulgarites are branching rocks formed instantly when lightning strikes the rock, soil or sand.

On the dry planets, it appears that the electrical impacts form craters. Instead the earth shows lichtenburg figures. So rather than this:
Image

We see this:
Image

I think the difference between the scarring is because of water. But you are right, there are many variables that have to be considered and there is a lot of work to be done. Most of the time it is raining when lightning strikes the ground so there is water present then. I am sure polarities and conductivity has to be thought of.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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