Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:15 pm

In my view the history of around 1000 BC is a pretty insignificant part of the bible. Whether Jesus or Moses were real people - pretty insignificant. What is significant is the stories that indicate planetary chaos and cataclysms and associated suffering in very ancient times. This changed our epigenetics and we need to heal from this.

There is information about kundalini and psychodelic herbs, etc, which has significance, but the real significance is that healing from our past trauma and associated epigenetic changes naturally produces kundalini effects.

There is information about the real god through Christos, consciousness, or more accurately experiencing. Thus experiencing is godly. And this is not to be confused with the sky gods, the planets that were so powerful in those very ancient days. It is through loss of self that the godliness, through experiencing, can be gained, and this is the most significant.

So the real significance of the bible is to realise and understand the above things, and live life accordingly, which does not mean following rules and laws, but rather losing the self.

Cheers,
Mo
moses
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:18 pm
Location: Adelaide

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:01 pm

I thought the following might be worth posting because it includes a few of the ancient sources.

Ancient 360 Day Year
The Corpse Came Back: Secrets of that Forgotten World after the Great Disaster, by Jonathan Gray
https://books.google.com/books?id=vvjcyeEzyG8C
p. 84 PYRAMID AND STONEHENGE MYSTERIES SOLVED
The ancient world surveyors had more on their minds than the earth's energy grid. - The calendar had to be re-calculated. The ancient calendars, you see, had the year at 360 days long. - It is from this number that is obtained the division of a circle, and the earth being divided into 360 degrees. - The ancient Chinese calendar was a 12-month year of 30 days each. - Babylonian records likewise show a year of 12 months of 30 days each. The old star maps had the sun moving through a path divided into 36 sections, each 10 days long. - The earliest Romans also had a year of 360 days. Plutarch, in his life of Numa, declared that in the time of Romulus the year was composed of twelve 30 day months. - The Mayan year (called a "tun") was of 360 days. - The Aryabhaitya, an ancient Indian work on mathematics and astronomy, says: "A year consists of 12 months. A month consists of 30 days. A day consists of 60 nadis. A nadi consists of 60 vinadikas." - The original Egyptian year was likewise 360 days long, according to the Ebers Papyrus.
Lloyd
 
Posts: 4364
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:13 pm

Gary, do you doubt that cataclysms were caused by major impacts, which caused conflagrations, great floods and ice ages (and continental drift)? What problems do you have with http://newgeology.us? If you don't believe in continental drift, do you believe in Earth expansion instead? You can see that the Pacific didn't expand, since the Americas moved toward and partly over the rift, i.e. the East Pacific Rise. Do you believe the Americas were never connected to Europe and Africa? If they were connected, then there was a supercontinent. If they were not connected, why do their outlines match so well? And not just their outlines, but the rock types and fossil types on opposite shores of the Atlantic match as well. Have you read Charles' models for the Sun and planets? He has made very thorough explanations of how they form and how their features are caused. See http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Pages/6031.html.
- It's certainly possible that there are or were physical ETs who planted us on the Earth and saved enough living things in times of cataclysms to repopulate the planet afterwards. But I'm inclined more to think that it's angels who do those things. There seems to be more evidence that angels or spirits exist than that ETs exist. The evidence of UFOs etc could actually be evidence of angels, as well as mankind's own recent inventions to some extent. Where the Bible speaks about God, it seems to mean angels of God. For example, the beings who visited Abraham before the destruction of Sodom and Gemorah were referred to as Lord, men and angels. The story of Moses and the burning bush where God spoke to him is repeated in the Book of Acts, I think, and there it's stated, I think by Stephen, that it was an angel who spoke to Moses. So I think the Bible only refers to the doings of angels, not really to those of "God". If I were an advanced being, I think I'd certainly prefer to have an immortal spirit body, than a mortal physical one, if I could manage it. I do believe in holistic, infinitely caring consciousness by the way.

Moses, I agree that the ancient cataclysms likely drove the ancients crazy and they passed down a lot of trauma through the succeeding generations, which we still need to heal from. The uniformitarians seem to be afraid to confront the traumatic past. Jesus probably agreed too. I don't think he believed he was God, since he never claimed to be God the Father, just the Son. He also said just before his crucifixion a quote from the Psalms that we are all gods. He agreed about selfishness too.

Gordon, the sequence has to be
1. Impact or "Planetary" Close Encounter;
2. Great Flood;
3. Strata Formation with Fossils;
4. Few Centuries' Repopulation;
5. Impact;
6. Supercontinent Breakup;
7. Rapid Continental Drift;
8. Mountain Uplift;
9. Erosion and Resedimentation;
10. Few Centuries' Ice Age with Frozen Fossils.
- I think Mountain Uplift had to follow Repopulation, because the mountains had to be formed by the Shock Dynamics impact, which caused the northern continents to move toward the Arctic quickly and freeze the fauna that repopulated there before the Ice Age.
- Also, the opposite shores of the Atlantic fit together like puzzle pieces and not only do the continental outlines match, but so do the rock strata and the fossils in the rock strata. Since those strata & fossils were formed by the Flood, they had to form before the breakup of the supercontinent; otherwise the strata & fossils would not match on opposite shores. And the breakup had to be a few centuries after the Flood in order for fauna to repopulate before the Ice Age, which Ice Age had to be caused by the movement of the northern continents toward the north pole.
- Did I overlook anything?
Lloyd
 
Posts: 4364
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:53 pm

I really like the idea that Stonehenge and the Great Pyramid were built in response to the change in year length from 360 days to 365.25 days. That makes sense. But I had to laugh at the explanation for this change - the flood upset the pole position and the Earth's orbit. Anything but planetary interaction.

Cheers,
Mo
moses
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:18 pm
Location: Adelaide

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:44 am

Lloyd,
The OEC folks have these mantras that they repeat over and over (kind of like the QM folks saying that quantum mechanics explains the most phenomena of any theory). Both groups have a lot at stake, because they stand to lose an element of their belief system if proven wrong. If you hold to the mantra, folks are likely to believe you without looking into the evidence themselves. Old Earth Creationism has given up some obvious statements in the scriptures in preference for the modern paradigms, then use their systematic re-interpretation of the scriptures to bend the science into their beliefs. For example, Gen 1, the creation chapter, which reads 6 days of evening-morning cycles in which the last 3 days are the creation of living things becomes epochs of process containing progressive creation of living things directed by God, ie. theistic evolution. Easy twist of imagination, but the result is that the geologic column must all be contained there, leaving no room for the geologic column being the result of the Noachian deluge. The deluge must then be a local phenomenon, despite numerous declarations in Gen 6 -9 that it was a worldwide event. Additionally, the whole fossil history of man through Neanderthals gets placed in the geologic column prior to Adam, leaving no room for the possibility of Neanderthals being human (why? because "death came through Adam" refers to humans, so the previously dead Neanderthals can't be human!) Many unsupported concessions are made to keep their system intact. Thus the mantras.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2530
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:46 am

Moses,
Planetary interaction is the cause of pole displacement in almost all the scenarios presented in this thread!
Also the cause of the deluge.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2530
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Dec 28, 2015 2:53 pm

Lloyd,
Just finished reading the whole of Charles' Torah essay - thanks, I enjoyed it very much. There were a few relatively minor things I disagreed with and a few things I'm witholding judgement on but mostly I agreed with him.
I recently watched series of lectures on the Exodus put out by the Oriental Institute of the UCSD and Charles' theory is as good as some of those presented by 'experts' from various fields.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzWtPZS ... TT-uPs7VNO
One of Charles' sources, Bill Devers, was one of the speakers. Several of the speakers were geologists etc. 44 speakers and I'm not sure if any 2 of them agreed on anything. :shock: :roll: :lol:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:27 pm

Webo, clearly you did not read:
The Corpse Came Back: Secrets of that Forgotten World after the Great Disaster, by Jonathan Gray
https://books.google.com/books?id=vvjcyeEzyG8C

He is always worth a read and his very ancient stuff is first rate, it is just that he is not into Velikovsky.
Cheers,
Mo
moses
 
Posts: 1102
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 3:18 pm
Location: Adelaide

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Tue Dec 29, 2015 1:53 am

I've read some of Gray.
Why not ask me a question, or state an objection so I can respond to it? I have a fairly busy life outside of this discussion ;)
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2530
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:12 am

Lloyd,
I get your point about the "matching" fossils on shores of the drifting South American and African continents, but consider this:
Before the split occurred, the continent was a single piece. Organisms buried by flooding on either side of the separating continents as the sea rushed in would be expected to be similar. The burials need not have occurred before the splitting began, but quite logically could/would have occurred near the beginning and throughout the spreading episode.
As for tsunami sediments, this objection against tsunami action is not well thought out; consider this view:
A tsunami is simply a water delivery system. Whatever materials are there to be delivered, and whatever organisms or objects are there to be buried, these are what will appear in the resulting deposits. Remember that the deluge was not just a passive submergence of land, but rather powerful currents flowing over the land and eventually laying their deposits over vast sections of the low topography. Today's tsunamis operate in low coastal areas, washing in and back out again not able to pass higher ground. A different nature of deposit will be left in this scenario.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
User avatar
webolife
 
Posts: 2530
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:01 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:06 pm

Saturn, Venus & Mars as the Sun God
This starts with Saturn.

SATURN: THE ANCIENT SUN GOD, By David Talbott
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1997.10.txt
It turns out that the "day" actually began with what we would call the "night" -- at sunset, with the darkening of the sky, and the coming out, or growing bright of other celestial bodies. It is widely acknowledged that the Egyptian day once began at sunset. The same is true of the Babylonian and Western Semit[es] ... the Athenians ... [and] northern European peoples.... This god of the archaic day, beginning at sunset, is in fact called Shamash, Ra, Helios, and Sol -- the very god explicitly identified with the planet Saturn.

THE MYTH OF THE CENTRAL SUN (1), By David Talbott
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1997.11.txt
... There is, in fact, a decisive difference between the great luminary celebrated as the king of the world, and the body we call the Sun today: unlike our rising and setting Sun, the archaic sun-god did not move.
... all of the tribes of Egypt celebrated the memory of Atum or Ra, father of kings, founder of the Tep Zepi or Golden Age.
... The Egyptian sun god gives motion to the heavens, but he does not himself move. It is said of Atum, for example, that he "gives motion to all things." But his domain is, emphatically, the cosmic center, a place of motionlessness or "rest." The texts say of Atum -- The Great God lives Fixed in the middle of the sky
... Thus one text proclaims Atum to be the "Firm Heart of the Sky." Other sources describe this cosmic center as the celestial "resting place" achieved by Atum.
... In the language of the Egyptians themselves, the god does not rise and set, but grows bright and dims. He shines brightly, then his light recedes. The most frequently-used Egyptian words for the this occasion are "uben". and "pert". The first word, "uben", means "to grow bright." The second, "pert", means "to come forth." Now the truth of the matter is that neither these, nor any other Egyptian words translated as the sun rising on the eastern horizon actually carry such a meaning. When Egyptian sources speak of the sun god coming out, or coming forth, the meaning is precisely what you would intend in saying that "the Moon comes out at night", or "the stars come out." You would not mean that the moon or stars rise. You would mean that they "grow bright." And that is the literal meaning of the Egyptian words usually translated as "to rise"
... The ancient day began at sunset, as the sky darkened. ... It was the planetary bodies that occupied the center stage in the mythmaking era. As the sky darkened, the large planetary bodies -- extremely close to the earth -- began to put on a spectacular display. Then, at sunrise, as the sky lightened, the radiance of these planetary bodies began to recede.
... One of the most common Egyptian expressions combined with words for "growing bright" or "coming forth" is the phrase "em hetep". The sun god "comes forth "em hetep"." As usually translated the words mean "in peace." Now in what sense might we say that "Ra comes forth in peace."? Well, the root meaning is far more concrete. The words mean "to be at rest," or what is the same thing, "to stand in one spot." In other words, the phrase "em hetep" directly complements the idea of the creator-king occupying his "resting place" in the sky. Literally, the Egyptian sun god "comes forth" or "grows bright" at the stationary "resting place" -- again, the center and summit of the sky.
... No cuneiform specialist has questioned the identity of the Babylonian "sun" god Shamash. Yet the texts describe Shamash "suspended from the midst of heaven." "Like the midst of heaven may he shine!" they say. "O Sun-god, in the midst of heaven..." His place in the sky is "the summit house," called also "the fixed house" and the "house of rest." "In the center he made the zenith," states one text. The language makes clear that Shamash was a precise Assyrian and Babylonian counterpart of the Egyptian sun god Ra. The equation of center and summit--the cosmic place from which the sun god ruled in both the Egyptian and Mesopotamian systems -- points to an archetypal idea. We will find that the idea pervades the myths of India, of China, the great native cultures of the Americas, and numerous other cultures as well.
... How could people on a rotating earth see a huge planetary body as stationary in the sky? For an earthbound observer, there is only one stationary spot in the revolving sky. It is the celestial pole -- for those of us in the northern hemisphere, the north celestial pole, roughly identified in our night sky today with the star Polaris.
... That stationary point, in the ancient religious and astronomical systems, is the sacred center and summit. Resting place, motionless site, axis, pivot, still place, silent region, the fixed or stable center of the turning heavens, the zenith, summit, top of the world ... our next step must be to look carefully at the language of the cosmic center in the different cultures.
Lloyd
 
Posts: 4364
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Brigit Bara » Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:39 pm

Hi, I have read only about half of the posts here, since its a long post and a detailed discussion. There are so many wonderful resources and directions to work.

I thought it might be helpful to add that there is another interpretation of the Genesis account which is not represented here. Very simply, Genesis opens "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." The following verse says that "the earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep."

This indicates (to some believers like myself) that there was an epoch of time as well as untold events between the two verses (1:1 and 1:2). It was concluded with the first global cataclysm in which the earth became "without form, and void" and put in deep darkness.

This interpretation of Genesis Chapter One is called the Gap Theory. I will not bore anyone with the supporting details, but this does mean that in the Old Testament the earth and the universe is of unknown age and extent, and that the regeneration in the six days following describes a reordering (by God) of the surface of the earth, after a terrible catastrophe. So Webolife, there are other Biblical views besides the assigning of long ages to the six days, and the young earth position.

It is my rough working estimation that the first cataclysm (mentioned above) is the result of the period of planetary instability in the solar system described by the Electric Universe. For physical evidence, I have found that electrical effects on the various minerals on the surface of the earth sometimes show high temperature processes -- and sometimes they do not. In other words, all of the types of rock -- metamorphic, sedimentary, and igneous -- are capable of being formed electrically. My questions on the subject of this thread, "Evidence of Ancient Global Catastrophe," have more to do with the possibility that the earth is just as covered with lichtenburg-type scarring as the moons and planets are covered with round and hexagonal craters. In particular, caves and sandstone are not always formed by water -- and possibly never are. Thank you Lloyd.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
User avatar
Brigit Bara
 
Posts: 585
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:37 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 03, 2016 7:59 pm

Electrical Formation
Hi, Brigit. Have you read Charles' papers at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/2ndParty/Pages/6031.html? He has the best, most detailed explanations of the electrical formation and features of planets, stars and galaxies that I know of. Do you know of any better explanations than his for any cosmic or geological phenomenon?

Gradualism Fail
The GAPS theory seems to accept conventional dating of the Earth, fossils and rock strata, but those uniformitarian assessments deny cataclysms and I started this thread with much evidence that many phenomena date to about 4,400 years ago, the apparent time of the Great Flood. However old the Earth was before the Flood, the Flood itself seems certainly to have occurred at that time and the sedimentary rock strata seem to have been deposited at that time.

Sandstone Formation
Charles' papers at the link above explain the electrical forces involved in Tides, Earthquakes, Vulcanism, and Crater Formation, which helped shape the Earth's surface. But the sedimentary rock strata were most likely formed by the Flood, not by "electric" forces primarily. Conventional geology says much of the sandstone was formed from desert sand dunes, but detailed studies show that they were formed under water, like limestone and shale. The paper, Startling evidence for Noah’s Flood: Footprints and sand ‘dunes’ in a Grand Canyon sandstone! at http://creation.com/startling-evidence-for-noahs-flood shows in detail why it is rather certain that sandstone was formed under water. Read especially the sections called "Those footprints" and "Desert ‘dunes’?" They explain that footprints in dunes do not show toe prints or distinct features, but only depressions. And the angles of dunes are different from sand waves underwater. That's partly how they could determine the sandstone formed under water.

Do you want to read that?
Lloyd
 
Posts: 4364
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:09 pm

"THE ONE STORY TOLD AROUND THE WORLD."
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1997.02.txt
Once the world was quite a different place. In the beginning, we were ruled by the central luminary of the sky, the motionless sun, presiding over an age of natural abundance and cosmic harmony. Creator-king, father of kings, founder of the kingship rites. And this earliest remembered time was the *exemplary* epoch, the Golden Age, the standard for all later generations. But the ancient order was disrupted and the entire cosmos fell into confusion, when the Universal Monarch tumbled from his appointed station. Then the hordes of chaos were set loose and all of creation slipped into a cosmic night, the gods themselves battling furiously in the heavens. And yet, from this descent into chaos, a new world emerged, now re-configured, but with the Universal Monarch himself, rejuvenated and transformed, assuming his rightful place in the heavens.

... Is it really possible that this *one story* -- a story so pristine and elementary -- was remembered around the world? Is it really possible that all of the recurring storylines of world mythology are only a part of this singular story? Yes, I will swear by this. In fact I am eager for a challenge to this sweeping and seemingly outrageous statement. ... But remember: I DID NOT SAY THAT I GAVE YOU THE WHOLE STORY. For example, I did not mention the mother goddess, and I did not mention the ancestral warrior-hero.


How Myth Symbolism Evolved
MERCURY IN MYTHOLOGY, By Dave Talbott
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thoth.1999.01.txt
For years I tried to find the distinction between "Mercury" as messenger and the "warrior-hero" (Mars) as messenger. I could never find a basis for separating the two. Eventually, I concluded that the effort was misplaced, that there is no distinction between the stories. It's a bit like Sol and Saturn, or Helios and Kronos. They hold the same story and are in fact the same gods. But why is one story or identity attached to two different celestial bodies? It's simply the way symbolism evolved. When the ancient celestial order dissolved, every body seen in the sky was asked to play a role as SYMBOL of what was remembered but no longer present.

Our Sun became the natural symbol of the former central luminary, Saturn, thus receiving Saturn's name as well. The Moon took its name from the primeval crescent on Saturn. The star Sirius, the brightest star in the sky, took its name from the radiant Venus, the "prototype" of stars visible in the sky before any stars were seen (while the very words for "star" descended from the Venus-goddess as well). All of the constellations received their names from the gods (or attributes of gods) in the former epoch. While Heracles was a Greek name of Mars, it also became the name of a constellation. There was a Bull of Heaven (pillar and crescent) long before the Bull gave its name to the vaguely-defined star group now called Taurus. It was only natural that a little star eventually discovered as a companion to our Sun should be assigned those attributes of the warrior hero relating to the hero's role as tiny companion (messenger, scribe, servant, assistant) to the primeval sun, Saturn.

As a general rule, in the progressive elaboration of symbolism, the attributes of the symbolic object will tend to scale down the original story. Aspects of the original story which cannot be meaningfully expressed by the familiar symbolic object will tend to be shed over time. The world mountain was also the "underworld" river and the luminous nether "wind". But once its name was attached to a sacred, commemorative, local mountain, the idea that THAT mountain could be a river or a wind would make no sense. Though the history of the warrior hero included much more than his role as "little companion" to the primeval sun, the unique position of Mercury tended to highlight that role in its relation to our Sun. The planet can be viewed as one of many natural symbols in our world pointing back to attributes of the warrior-hero in the myth-making epoch.
Lloyd
 
Posts: 4364
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:54 pm

Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby LunarSabbathTruth » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:25 am

moses wrote:Webo, clearly you did not read:
The Corpse Came Back: Secrets of that Forgotten World after the Great Disaster, by Jonathan Gray
https://books.google.com/books?id=vvjcyeEzyG8C

He is always worth a read and his very ancient stuff is first rate, it is just that he is not into Velikovsky.
Cheers,
Mo


I corresponded with Jonathan Gray in 2014. The subject was the when the 360 to 365.25 day year occurred. I said it was around the time of Hezekiah, and he said it was at the time of the Great Flood. Note what he said about Velikovsky:

Hi Joe,

I like Velikovsky but on this matter his history is wrong.

The Great Pyramid (built soon after the Flood) has encapsulated
within its measurements the 365 1/4 day year. The event which
brought this about had ALREADY occurred. That is 1400 years
BEFORE Hezekiah.

Best regards
Jonathan


I still think Dr V was correct on this point. I am not sure when the GP was actually built.

- joe
LunarSabbathTruth
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:47 pm
Location: USA

PreviousNext

Return to New Insights and Mad Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests