Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Fri Dec 18, 2015 2:39 pm

Grey Cloud,
I think that the ancients looked at the sky and saw things that looked like things that they knew well. Like a hamstrung animal, or beards, or sex and reproduction stuff, etc. Then the stories are all about this and the names of the interactors. Later other interpretations could be added.

So the Gods, or most of them, originated in the sky but were not necessarily planets, as Gary Gilligan beautifully explains. A God could change after it quietened down or disappeared. Like the warrior hero was definitely originally a planet but having become insignificant it's meaning could change. Thus trying to make heads or tails of the Greek stuff is bound to be confusing. The stories originated further back in the past. That is where the real truth lies.

Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:34 pm

Grey Cloud, thanks for your thumbs up a few posts back.
I have trouble wading through a lot of EU material because of the infusion of so much subjective matter. I would love for several of the catastrophic scenarios to be correct; my own catastrophism would be even further augmented and justified thereby! But I find my hands full in defense of the geologic and physical ramifications of catastrophism, and the mythology to be distracting and detracting from the scientific foundations of the EU paradigm. The scientific community will not be won over to EU by allusion to mythology, nor will the modern world welcome a return to the medieval or classic worldview.

I believe there is much wisdom to be gained from the study of the classics, and from the biblical record in particular. But the scientific case for a new paradigm must be built upon an evidential foundation, and repeatable demonstrations. In defense of catastrophism, I used to spend a lot of time disproving the principle of uniformity (Uniformitarianism) in relation to earth history; but as time goes on, I realize the more powerful methodology is to point to catastrophic process working in the present... if enough evidence can be amassed, this may be the approach that actually saves millions of lives from (or prepares for) the effects of catastrophes to come.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:37 pm

moses wrote:Grey Cloud,
I think that the ancients looked at the sky and saw things that looked like things that they knew well. Like a hamstrung animal, or beards, or sex and reproduction stuff, etc. Then the stories are all about this and the names of the interactors. Later other interpretations could be added.

So the Gods, or most of them, originated in the sky but were not necessarily planets, as Gary Gilligan beautifully explains. A God could change after it quietened down or disappeared. Like the warrior hero was definitely originally a planet but having become insignificant it's meaning could change. Thus trying to make heads or tails of the Greek stuff is bound to be confusing. The stories originated further back in the past. That is where the real truth lies.

Cheers,
Mo


Okay Mo that's an acceptable hypothesis but you have to provide some evidence that the celestial aspect came first.

To repeat what I stated in an earlier post, 'myth' means story and is merely a way of conveying information it is not a genre as such. These cultures were perfectly capable of writing in plain language - cargo lists, law codes, royal correspondence to name a few examples. These universalist theories have come and gone all through the 20th century: all myths are solar myths; all myths are descriptions of ritual; all myths are about dying and resurrection gods, etc, etc. All of these theories failed because of their one-size fits all nonsense. They failed for other reasons too but that doesn't matter here.

Not all, perhaps not even most, of these stories originated in the far distant past many are datable if only approximately. The Greeks for example are not that old. See this article here:
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/thes/hd_thes.htm
and explain to me where events in the heavens enters into it. Theseus was as flesh and blood as you or I, sure his biography had mythological tropes added to it, e.g. the sword in the stone, the wicked step-mother etc but prick him and he bled. The list of place names in the 3rd paragraph is entirely logical for someone traveling from Troezen to Athens due to the nature of the terrain.

Isn't Gary Gilligan the guy who used to post on here and has a website with an Egyptian theory or something? Can you post a link as I would interested in seeing his explanation.
Last edited by Grey Cloud on Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:23 pm

Webolife,
While I agree that the scientific community will not be won over by the mythological side of things, I feel that the general public/man on the street is more likely to be brought to awareness of the EU by it rather than the science side.

I don't have any sort of hard and fast theory as to what happened or, to a lesser extent, when it happened. As I see it something big and ignorant entered the solar system and caused a major upset, some of which manifested on Earth causing widespread death and destruction immediately and in the short and mediums term. Some of this was electrical and some not. Planetary orbits disturbed? Yes. Major reshuffle of the planets/solar system? No.

A point I meant to pick up on from one of your earlier posts - the Earth's tilt. I agree that the Earth gained its tilt due to one of these incidents. (This seems to be taken as a given in Hermetic Philosophy). I think we may disagree as when this was. I can't find your comment but I recall it as referring or alluding to something biblical(?). Anyway, I'm thinking of the alignments of various ancient constructions to particular points in the sky or on the horizon. Would not these alignments be off if the tilt had occurred after they were built/erected?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
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The great Way is simple
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby seasmith » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:18 pm

If one has ever seen livestock being "hamstrung", it is immediate and disabling.
For man, likely a metaphor for moral weakness, hubris, etc. in a part him (near the sole) that did not receive the childhood benefit of the sanctifying and edifying 'holy waters' of the Abzu, (where also dwelt Enki and the earliest Seven Sages).
I think a Turtle is often the post-diluvian emergent 'world mound' ?
Just one interpretation...
-S

“ “Hi Seasmith,
Interesting little story, though I'm not buying the Enki = Saturn equation. The Tablets I would equate with the Logos; the Anzu bird with Tiamat of the Babylonians (Heb. Tehom); Ninurta would appear to be something to do with Man and his being in
the material universe. I'll go with the Turtle and mound and perhaps with the ankle part though I see the ankle as being something to do with Earth or earthly part of man, it being next to the part which touches the ground.”
-GC


Hey Grey,
Ankle ?? Do you mean the Achilles tendon which attaches to the heel, part of the sole/soul which attaches foot to ground and enables man to traverse the earth ;)

Ea/Enki doesn’t = Chronos . I am definitely not in that camp with Lloyd. Chronos is just an attribute, or heavenly counterpart of Enki. Typical of the natural general progression in Man’s cognition from neter to god to hero and finally some Greek idol.

I like the stories in Stone. One because it is an original edition coming down to us; and deuce, the story was important enough at the time to carve in stone.

Below three links are to the Kudurru de Melishipak (Kassite circa 1200 BC).
First two are top half detail and full-view; the third a description by a French savant familiar with the dig.

The top row depicts their common celestial board of directors: Moon, Sun, Venus/Ishtar (which indicates a Babylonian culture, coming after the destruction of ancient Sumer), Anu, Enlil, Ea/Enki , and motherearth Ninhursag.
Please note that Enki is represented by a ‘goat-fish’; which is even today the symbol for the zodiacal Capricorn, ruled by ye old Saturn. About as good a circumstantial evidence to be had in these mythy matters I guess.
The rest of the well preserved stele goes on with Ninurta, Zababa (Anzu?), Nergal, Marduk and other divine allies for to accompany the warrior-king into war.
Lots of wings and weapons in there…
Turtle of course is also “primordial mound”, emerging from chaos.

The Enki – Marduk progression/evolution itself is a very entertaining collection of stories relevant to the whole Cronos – Zeus saga, as well.


[img] http://journalofcosmology.com/images/Belmonte5.jpg

http://www.danielmarin.es/hdc/kudurru.jpg


http://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/kudurru-king-melishipak-ii
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby moses » Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:44 pm

Grey Cloud,
Gary Gilligan's site:
http://www.gks.uk.com/

<Okay Mo that's an acceptable hypothesis but you have to provide some evidence that the celestial aspect came first. GC>

Well seeing how I am not trying to convince anybody of anything, and certainly not expecting that the idea will become standard historical knowledge, I only need to convince myself. Basically the evidence exists, but the hard work needed to find it may not.

If I said that all Greek stories came from the sky, I apologise.
Cheers,
Mo
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:35 am

Seasmith,
Yes I meant heel. :oops:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:33 pm

Ancient Rock Art
Strange Star & Giant Waves; Destruction
http://rabbithole2.com/presentation/images2/petroglyphs/9.jpg

Petroglyph Image Samples http://rabbithole2.com/presentation/ancient/petroglyphs_pictographs_cave_drawings_spirals.htm
Spiral Star; Hand Comet; Star & Planets; Spoked Wheels;
Ladder; Tall Horned Rectanglemen; Squattermen; People;
Goats; Owl Eyes; Animal Skeletons;
Waves; Snakes;
SAMPLES OF SPIRAL PETROGLYPHS
ANCIENT EGYPTIAN WRITINGS ABOUT THE DESTROYER
-Creation 4:5 Then ... God caused a sign to appear in the Heavens, so that men should know the Earth would be afflicted, and the sign was a STRANGE STAR.
-Creation 4:6 THE STAR grew and waxed to a great brightness and was awesome to behold. IT PUT FORTH HORNS and sang, being unlike any other ever seen.
-Manuscripts 5:1 IT TWISTED ABOUT ITSELF LIKE A COIL ... It was not a great comet or a loosened star, being more like a fiery body of flame.
-Manuscripts 3:6 The people will scatter in madness. They will hear the trumpet and battle-cry of the DESTROYER and will seek refuge within dens in the Earth. Terror will eat away their hearts, and their courage will flow from them like water from a broken pitcher. They will be eaten up in the flames of wrath and consumed by the breath of the DESTROYER.
GLOBAL MAP OF SPIRAL PETROGLYPHS

Utah Petroglyphs
http://hyperallergic.com/232847/ancient-rock-art-in-utah-is-being-destroyed-by-target-shooters/
http://hyperallergic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/6292317351_29e64cb2f2_b.jpg
Like the Above
http://hyperallergic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Holy_Ghost_Panel_Great_Gallery-1024x714.jpg
Tall Rectanglemen or Coffinmen, like Osiris.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:00 pm

Lloyd,
Where does the Egyptian part come from?

[Edit] I Googled it. It's not Egyptian, it's from the Kolbrin! I thought it sounded familiar. The Kolbrin is from Britain.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
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The great Way is simple
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:54 pm

Okay, not Egyptian I guess. Anyway, ancient drawings etc might help describe cataclysms.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:10 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:As I see it something big and ignorant entered the solar system and caused a major upset, some of which manifested on Earth causing widespread death and destruction immediately and in the short and mediums term. Some of this was electrical and some not. Planetary orbits disturbed? Yes. Major reshuffle of the planets/solar system? No. A point I meant to pick up on from one of your earlier posts - the Earth's tilt. I agree that the Earth gained its tilt due to one of these incidents. (This seems to be taken as a given in Hermetic Philosophy). I think we may disagree as when this was. I can't find your comment but I recall it as referring or alluding to something biblical(?). Anyway, I'm thinking of the alignments of various ancient constructions to particular points in the sky or on the horizon. Would not these alignments be off if the tilt had occurred after they were built/erected?


I generally agree with your points here. I definitely believe that the tilting event occurred before the monuments were built, and relate this to the biblical record of the flood event. As a starting point, prior to the flood seasons were marked specifically by reference to the stars and moon; but after the flood seasons were declared to be climate/weather related, suggestive that the tilting event was in conjunction with the events of the flood year.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:53 pm

Gordon, do you know much about radiometric dating? Do you know if the ratios of parent and daughter elements are pretty consistent in the same strata over large areas, or worldwide? Or is there much variation in the ratios? If the ratios are consistent, do you know of any good reasons for why the Flood would have put more or fewer parent elements at deeper or shallower levels in the geological column? Do you know what the best online sites are for explaining this in detail? Do you know if radiometric dating is the main argument for Old Earth theory? I assume that the ratios must be fairly consistent, but that there's likely a very good Young Earth explanation.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:36 am

Lloyd,
You've found good sites on anomalous radiometric data I'm sure.
Here are several main points of relevance for me:
1. It is not true that higher parent/daughter ratios are found deeper in the strata.
2. The whole concept of "deeper" is a misrepresentation based on the assumptions underlying the geologic column, ie. macroevolution, index fossils, and the law of superposition, which is disproved by Guy Berthault's stratigraphy.
3. Lava beds are the primary target of radiometric dating, not sedimentary strata.
4. Even within a single specimen, samples are independently dated by different labs, and the results commonly yield varying results... dates which match more closely to the predetermined results based on superposition and index fossils are kept as confirmations of the expected age of the specimen.
5. The fundamental assumption behind radiometric dating is that the original parent/daughter ratio is known.
Of course the ideal ratio would be 1/0, eg. in U-Pb dating, it would be assumed that the original rock contained 100% uranium and no daughter elements. However surrounding "country" rock has amounts of the daughter elements, so the counts of daughter elements supposedly due to radioactive decay must be adjusted to account for this. In addition, different isotopes of uranium within a given specimen commonly yield different age results, and various graphing schemes are used to try to synchronize these results to some proposed "metamorphic" episode that may have altered the results of the decay process.
6. It is of interest that U-Pb ratios found throughout not only terrestrial strata but also the solar system [Mars, moon rocks, meteorites] are within error ranges of about 50-50. If this is a primordial state as opposed to uranium having been emplaced pure [why would that be considered likely?] then it may be readily interpreted that the entire solar system is relatively young, even created yesterday! The error ranges are often in the 100,000s or millions of years --so if the earth's surface is in the tens of thousands of years young, then U-Pb error ranges are greater than the age of the crust.
7. Anomalous radiometric ages fill lists on several sites -- check the R.A.T.E. site for plenty of data.
8. The cost and unreliability of radiometric decay are well known by field geologists, so results of their studies are customarily published based on correlation with the alleged geologic column without reference to radiometrics.
9. Because the old earth paradigm is so prevalent in our culture, it is easy to convince the average person that strata bear tremendous age and that science supports or has even proven this. The weight of overcoming this paradigm rests on detractors like me/us, and is a task that may never be fully accomplished.
Truth extends beyond the border of self-limiting science. Free discourse among opposing viewpoints draws the open-minded away from the darkness of inevitable bias and nearer to the light of universal reality.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:00 am

webolife wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:As I see it something big and ignorant entered the solar system and caused a major upset, some of which manifested on Earth causing widespread death and destruction immediately and in the short and mediums term. Some of this was electrical and some not. Planetary orbits disturbed? Yes. Major reshuffle of the planets/solar system? No. A point I meant to pick up on from one of your earlier posts - the Earth's tilt. I agree that the Earth gained its tilt due to one of these incidents. (This seems to be taken as a given in Hermetic Philosophy). I think we may disagree as when this was. I can't find your comment but I recall it as referring or alluding to something biblical(?). Anyway, I'm thinking of the alignments of various ancient constructions to particular points in the sky or on the horizon. Would not these alignments be off if the tilt had occurred after they were built/erected?


I generally agree with your points here. I definitely believe that the tilting event occurred before the monuments were built, and relate this to the biblical record of the flood event. As a starting point, prior to the flood seasons were marked specifically by reference to the stars and moon; but after the flood seasons were declared to be climate/weather related, suggestive that the tilting event was in conjunction with the events of the flood year.

Could you point me at some biblical passages, sounds interesting.
BTW Thanks for mentioning Guy Berthault - I've been trying to remember his name for the last 2 or 3 years. Had it narrowed down to him being French or Belgium but that was as far as I got. :lol: :roll:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby nick c » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:43 am

On page 3 and 4 of this thread there was some discussion of the frozen wooly mammoth carcasses that are periodically found within the Arctic Circle.
Previously, THE EXTINCTION OF THE MAMMOTH, By Charles Ginenthal was only available as a hardcopy for purchase; the book is now freely available on the net as a PDF here:
http://immanuelvelikovsky.com/Mammoth_01052014.pdf
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