Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:54 am

Norman, please put your comments on your own thread instead of barraging this one.

Cargo, this is a science thread, not religion. If a message is too long to read entirely, read the first few words of each paragraph, or so, to see if any paragraph may interest you.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Norman » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:36 am

Lloyd wrote:Cargo, this is a science thread, not religion.

Are you kidding? What about all the mythical references to gods and goddesses (and even Jesus) in this thread/Topic?
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:38 pm

In the thread, Archaeological Find Challenges Standard Geology at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16219&p=112560#p112559
I said: I found a good paper online by Oard that I think might help to get a more thorough model for ancient cataclysm completed. Oard's paper is at http://creation.com/defining-the-flood-post-flood-boundary-in-sedimentary-rocks. Maybe you've read it already.

Webolife replied: Thank you for the link to Oard's paper. I have generally stuck to reading standard scientific literature and research, and ferreting out the facts from the suppositions. It looks like Oard , et.al., did the same. He has asked the same questions, and come to many of the same conclusions as I did regarding the timelines, mechanisms, and results of the Flood sequence. I will spend some time looking through other articles on the site and let you know from time to time if I find anything of relevance to the EU and our discussions.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:47 pm

(I guess it took me over an hour to edit the above post, so I wasn't able to complete it. So now I'm completing it here.)
The Great Flood
In the thread, Archaeological Find Challenges Standard Geology at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16219&p=112560#p112559
I said: I found a good paper online by Oard that I think might help to get a more thorough model for ancient cataclysm completed. Oard's paper is at http://creation.com/defining-the-flood-post-flood-boundary-in-sedimentary-rocks. Maybe you've read it already.

Webolife replied: Thank you for the link to Oard's paper. I have generally stuck to reading standard scientific literature and research, and ferreting out the facts from the suppositions. It looks like Oard , et.al., did the same. He has asked the same questions, and come to many of the same conclusions as I did regarding the timelines, mechanisms, and results of the Flood sequence. I will spend some time looking through other articles on the site and let you know from time to time if I find anything of relevance to the EU and our discussions.

- Gordon, Oard says there are 3 Creationist theories about the endpoint of the Great Flood:
1. Permian/Precambrian; 2. Cretaceous/Tertiary; 3. End of Cenozoic. Do you agree with #3?
- I'd like to have a handier way to represent all of the "time periods" in the geological column. So, starting at the top, I'd like to refer to the Cenozoic as 1, Mesozoic: 2, Paleozoic: 3, Proterozoic: 4, Archean: 5, Hadean: 6. The divisions I then number as 1a Quatenary, 1b Tertiary, 2a Cretacious, 2b Jurassic, 2c Triassic, 3a Permian, 3b Carboniferous, 3c Devonian, 3d Silurian, 3e Ordovician, 3f Cambrian, 4a Precambrian. Conventional dates are:
1: 0-2Myr; 66M; 2: 144M; 208M; 245M; 3: 286M; 320M; 360M; 408M; 438M; 505M; 4: 570M etc.
- Oard says the 2nd school of thought thinks "Cenozoic strata would be post-Flood" and it accepts the "dam-breach hypothesis for the origin of the Grand Canyon" in the late Cenozoic. "Great tectonic uplift occurred during the Cenozoic ... the post-Flood period". He adds that it provides no evidence for uplift being post-Flood, but I think there's great evidence for that, which I'll get to below.
- But first I have another question. I think you said you don't think Noah's ark necessarily landed on Mt. Ararat, but may have landed near it. In that case the mountains could have uplifted later. Could they not?
- Here's my thinking on why mountains must have uplifted a few centuries after the flood, which I partly discussed earlier in this thread. Mammoths and other mammals froze very abruptly in the Arctic and the likeliest cause was rapid continental drift, which moved the northern continents northward into the Arctic. Many mammoths and other animals and trees seem to have been washed into the Arctic Ocean by a flood that swept over Siberia, probably due to the continental drift. The drift was most likely caused by a huge impact off east Africa, which provided the horizontal compressive forces necessary to uplift mountains. Grand Lake and Hopi Lake formed during the continental drift event during mountain uplift and they drained catastrophically sometime later, forming the Grand Canyon.
- Gordon, do you find any flaws in this reasoning? If so, can you elaborate?
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:09 pm

Agreements...
Most of Oard.
Cenozoic sometime around the Pliocene/Pleistocene. Remember that a stratum is not directly indicative of an exact time relationship, but of event. Prior to sometime in the Pliocene all fossils down to the Cambrian indicate a tropical or subtropical clime, afterward, we see diverse climate divisions, indicative of a line of demarcation between evidence of a pre-flood world and the world which followed, due to what I dare to presume was a geologically rapid change in both the atmosphere and the topography. The arctic was not climatically identifiable prior to this time as indicated by the warm weather fossils found in the upper latitudes. It developed later. Continents drifting northward, which is likely, encountered colder climes than in its original position. This may very well have initiated the rapid cooling that started the glaciation and froze some of the mammoths.
"Harar" used after the flood description probably indicates mountain ranges, and Ararat is derived from that term. That being said, the mountain ranges arose in connection with the drift, but it is virtually certain that volcanoes rose up after the mountain ranges.
Flaws...
Using terms like "most likely" for something which is pure speculation.
Assuming that drift [and therefore orogeny] occurred sometime after the flood, rather than during or in the end times of the flood. This, if presumed to have happened in a relatively short time-frame, would have resulted in more cataclysmic deformation and transformation of the earth than the flood it was alleged to have followed.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:37 pm

Continental Drift During Or Long After the Flood?
Gordon, I think you stated earlier on this thread that an unusually large impact off east Africa caused months-long rapid continental drift, which caused the Great Flood and mountain uplift during the latter phase of the Flood. Is this correct?

But weren't there a lot of plants and animals, including mammoths, suddenly frozen in the Arctic after the Flood? How could they have survived in the Arctic during and shortly after the Flood? Why would the Flood not have drowned all of them and buried them under sediment? And would it not have taken a few centuries for life to return to the Arctic after the Flood?

Do you agree that the Flood had to occur on the supercontinent, before it split up, because the rock and fossil types on opposite shores of the Atlantic Ocean match up well? If the Flood had occurred after continental drift ended, the rock and fossil types on opposite shores would not line up well at all. Right? If continental drift took several months to get the continents to near their present locations, they would have been moving under 2 miles per hour. Long runout underwater landslides move much faster than that when they move horizontally on the seafloor. Don't they? If they moved too slowly, friction would quickly stop them. Right? Same with continents. Moving too slowly, the friction would not allow them to move so far.

So, for those reasons, Mike Fischer's and Baumgardner's suggestions for the sequence of catastrophes seems most reasonable to me. Baumgardner implied that a large body orbited the Earth 5 or 6 times during the Flood on a long ellipse, which raised very high tsunamis once a month laying down sediment deposits each month with unconformities between them. Fischer puts the impact, continental drift and mountain uplift a few centuries after the Flood, when plants and animals have had time to repopulate the Arctic and then drift movement toward the pole resulted in the sudden freezing. If drift had taken a few months time, animals would have had time to leave the Arctic before the continents moved into the bitter cold region. Am I overlooking something important?

By the way, Gordon, your info about climate being universally warm from the Cambrian down to the early Pleiocene, after which seasons set in, seems very significant. I'm glad to know about that.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:33 am

From Cambrian UP to the Pleistocene.
I'm ok with the Madagascar impact suggestion, but I wasn't the one who made it. The months long drift episode works for me, although I'm friendly toward additional small "spurts" of drift after the main flood events; the other timelines don't fit well in my model.
The friction issue is problematic, but speed doesn't help the problem, rather exacerbates it I think. There are too many unknowns to feasibly evaluated the various theories, even for standard continental drift timelines... we have a fingernail-growth slow rate today, due most reasonably to "braking" friction. How things happened before that [and how fast] is conjectural... I'm happy with the several months.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:56 pm

Gordon, do you know why the Younger Dryas is conventionally dated at about 12,000 years ago? Do you think it should be dated after the Great Flood, about 4,200 years ago? If so, what is some of the best evidence for that? In some of the first posts on this thread I listed some of Jonathan Gray's reasons for dating the Flood to 4,300 some years ago. I'd like to be able to persuade Mike Fischer to change his timeline, if there's better evidence than what I've seen so far.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:09 pm

Timelines will always be conjectural and controversial. I'm good with standard C14 12,000BP correlating to an adjusted ~6000?BP date based on the influx of C14 into the troposphere as a result of the atmospheric collapse associated with the flood event[s]. Dates associated with animals that survived the flood event might yield in the neighborhood of 50,000+BP due to the negligible amount of C14 they ingested. Subsequent generations might yield dates in exponentially decreasing years down to a relatively reliable correlation with actual dates in the ~5000BP ranges +/- 700 yr uncertainty because of equilibrium/non-equilibrium assumptions. Fossils buried deeper in the strata should show virtually no C14 because the pre-flood atmosphere was free of it. Purely conjectural here.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:23 am

Thanks, Gordon. Any time you find or think of good references worth reading on this topic, please feel free to mention them here.

Next I'm listing some recent science news titles. Would you like to comment on any of the titles, whether or not you read the links?

Geologists Find Evidence of Ancient Megatsunami in Cape Verde Islands
http://www.sci-news.com/geology/science-megatsunami-fogo-volcano-cape-verde-03304.html
I haven't read that, but I'm guessing this megatsunami was a post-flood event and that the Great Flood tsunamis were bigger. Do you agree?

World’s Largest Canyon System May Lie under Antarctic Ice Sheet
http://www.sci-news.com/geology/worlds-largest-canyon-system-antarctic-ice-sheet-03561.html
I guess this Antarctic canyon, like the Grand Canyon, was formed after the flood too. Right?

Ancient Supereruptions in Idaho's Snake River Plain
http://www.livescience.com/54202-ancient-eruptions-snake-river-plain-photos.html
12 Supereruptions Pockmark Path of Yellowstone Hotspot
http://www.livescience.com/54200-yellowstone-hotspot-past-super-eruptions.html
I think your view is that these eruptions occurred in the latter stages of the flood, whereas Fischer thinks they occurred along with rapid continental drift a few hundred years after the flood. Can you name some evidence for your view?
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby webolife » Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:29 pm

Cape Verde megatsunami: I'm not sure I trust some of the scholarship on this article, however the dating, which the writer referred to as "cutting edge"[??] certainly suggests that the seismicity and volcanism associated with this event were late or post flood. They refer to the volcanic region as recent, a common term for volcanic ranges around the world, which I place late/post flood. The dating method was counting Helium-3, produced by cosmic rays on the exposed rock surface... I don't believe such a method can accurately age any rock without applying other assumptions; the date they published was an average of dates over a 50,000+ yr range.

Antarctic Canyon: It's unclear whether the valley was carved or is a rift... I lean toward the rift. If carved, it would be a flood remnant, perhaps mid to late flood; as a rift it may have occurred early in the flood as a result of the continental splitting event.

Yellowstone is a hotspot under a [once] drifting continent, analogous in some ways to the Hawaiian chain hotspot in the middle of the Pacific. As the continent drifted over it, it may have fueled the Columbia plateau eruptions of Washington, then the Idahoan Craters of the Moon, and now residing under the Yellowstone plateau. The continental boundary volcanics and Island arcs are clearly post-flood in my model, in contrast to the hotspots which are/may be a subset of the "opening" events of the flood. So I agree with Fischer's connection of the hotspot with drift, but disagree with his timeline, as always.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:13 am

Gordon, do you have a little time to:
Play Games with Me? I invite you and others to my new thread on improving science and science discussion at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16278&p=112941#p112941. I started a game there, called Doutery. Its purpose is to improve critical thinking and science discussion. I want to practice the game with other critical thinkers and improve the game enough to perhaps have an effect on improving science. The game will have to be FUN in order to succeed. To me it will probably be fun already, but for others it may need tinkering with to make it much better. So I hope you can take a little time to post there for a while, like for a few days or weeks, if you like. I submitted Big Bang as a theory for Doutery, but feel free to submit other theories, even including your own, if you like. We're not trying to disprove any theory, but only to find the best counter-evidence to theories. That should help improve critical thinking, which science greatly needs, I think. Right?
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun May 01, 2016 7:07 am

Gordon, I posted the links below in another thread, but wanted to ask you specifically if you have any comments on any of these articles. I haven't checked out most of them yet, but the titles provide enough info for me for the most part. The two articles about zircons seem possibly contradictory. How could a zircon contain graphite of biological origin, if zircons came from asteroid impacts? They claim that impacts and supernovae occurred billions of years ago, but of course, since the evidence is on the surface of the Earth, the Moon and Mars, which all were resurfaced just a few thousand years ago, those events are likely to have occurred about the time of the global cataclysms. Right? There are also several archeology articles that seem interesting and none of those would be likely to predate the cataclysms much either, I presume.

Asteroid Impacts May Have Created Mars' Ancient Oceans
http://news.discovery.com/space/did-asteroid-impacts-melt-up-mars-ancient-oceans-160425.htm

Interstellar Iron Found on Moon’s Surface: Confirmation of Supernovae in Solar Neighborhood
http://www.sci-news.com/astronomy/interstellar-iron-moons-supernovae-03794.html

Earth Pelted with Ashes from Nearby Supernova Explosions
http://www.space.com/32650-nearby-supernova-explosions-cosmic-rays.html

4.1 Billion Year Old Australian Zircon Contains Graphite of Biological Origin
http://www.sci-news.com/geology/science-zircon-graphite-biological-origin-03356.html

Reef Ecosystem Discovered in the Amazon
http://news.discovery.com/earth/oceans/broad-reef-ecosystem-discovered-in-amazon-160422.htm

Ancient Peruvian Mystery Solved From Space - spiraling, rock-lined holes, known as puquios - a series of extraordinarily advanced underground aqueducts
http://www.space.com/32604-ancient-peruvian-mystery-solved-from-space.html

Some fairy tales may be 6000 years old
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/04/some-fairy-tales-may-be-6000-years-old

Slaughter at the bridge: Uncovering a colossal Bronze Age battle
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle

Origin of Earth's Oldest Crystals: zircon crystals -- are likely to have formed in the craters left by violent asteroid impacts
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160428173233.htm
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun May 01, 2016 3:54 pm

Hi Lloyd,
Had a look at your link in the other thread. Interesting but there is a lot of speculation in there. If they are correct about the number of combatants then scholars will have to re-think their ideas about population density and such.

“We have 130 people, minimum, and five horses. And we’ve only opened 450 square meters. That’s 10% of the find layer, at most, maybe just 3% or 4%,” 450/130 gives 3.4 men per sq metre. That's far too many to be able to fight. One man swinging a club needs more than a sq metre. And that's without the horses.

We'll see.
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Re: Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm

Unread postby Lloyd » Sun May 01, 2016 4:32 pm

Regarding Slaughter at the bridge: Uncovering a colossal Bronze Age battle
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/slaughter-bridge-uncovering-colossal-bronze-age-battle
GC, I guess the bodies were preserved because they were left in a swamp. Some seem to have fallen into the swamp and their weapons and other valuables went down with them, while others were robbed of their valuables and then thrown into the swamp. That seems to account for the density. This was in northern Germany over 3,000 years ago. They estimate that at least 4,000 warriors were involved in the battle. And they seem to have come from all parts of Europe. It said they must have been well-trained as warriors. The bridge where the battle occurred is thought to have been there perhaps for 500 years before the battle. The article seems to suggest that one party in the battle may have been the Sea People who also attacked Egypt at about that time. It also said it's unusual to find so many remnants from an ancient war. Of the many wars supposedly fought by the ancient Egyptians and others, few if any remains are known. What's most interesting to me is that this is close to the time of the ancient cataclysms.
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