Time & 360 Day Year

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Brent72
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Re: Time & 360 Day Year

Unread post by Brent72 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 7:14 pm

LunarSabbathTruth wrote:Velikovsky talks about the 360 day year and 30 day month in "Worlds in Collision". This pattern was disrupted in the time of the Hebrew kings Uzziah, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, including the account of the backwards shadow on the sundial, around 700 BC.

- joe
You might also be interested to cross check with Job 9:6-7
“He shakes the earth from its place and makes its pillars tremble. He speaks to the sun and it does not shine; he seals off the light of the stars”.

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JP Michael
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Re: Time & 360 Day Year

Unread post by JP Michael » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:05 am

comingfrom wrote:The Jews may have started with a 360 day year, and then found they had to make adjustments after the year lengthened.
But tell me, where in the Torah is the description of a calendar?
This is a very interesting question.

The oldest references to months and dates are found in Genesis and display an interesting calendar in use:
  • 7:11 "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day..."
Note that Noah entered the Ark 7 days prior (Gen 7:6-10).
  • 7:24 "And the waters prevailed on the earth 150 days. "
Interestingly, the author uses 150 days to describe the length of time the floodwaters were raging upon the earth, rather than 5 months (assuming 30 day months). This corresponds precisely with the date given in the following section:
  • 8:3-4 "and the waters receded from the earth continually. At the end of 150 days the waters had abated, and in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. "
The 150 days of 8:3 should not be confused with those of 7:24. The latter refers to the prevailing waters of the flood, culminating with the Ark resting on Ararat exactly 150 days after the flood commenced. The 150 days of 'abatement' in 8:3 are a difficulty I will explain in more detail below, because this can actually be used as evidence of both a 10-month or a 12-month pre-deluvian calendar.
  • 8:4 "And the waters continued to abate until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains were seen."
As the waters kept receeding, the first day of the tenth month being the day the tops of the mountains on which the Ark was 'resting' were actually first seen. Noah sends out a raven and a dove after 40 days wait, then 7 days after another dove, then 7 days after a final dove (actually, the text suggests it was the same dove 3 times, Gen 8:6-12).
  • 8:13-14 "In the six hundred and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried from off the earth. And Noah removed the covering of the ark and looked, and behold, the face of the ground was dry. In the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth had dried out."
I find this verse interesting in that it goes from the 10th month to the first month. Where are mentions to the eleventh and twelfth months?

Dating Anno Mundi, after creation, according to Masoretic Chronogenealogies1 of the Patriarchs Adam to Noah (1656AM = 600th year of Noah's life), with textually named dates in bold, implied dates in italics, the dating of the Flood sequence is as follows, for both 12 month and 10 month versions:

[Item], 30 Day, 12 Month, Year.
  • [1] 10/02/1656 - Noah and animals enter ark (Gen 7:6-10)
    [2] 17/02/1656 - Start of flood (Gen 7:11)
    [3] 27/03/1656 - Rain stops, waters still increasing (Gen 7:12, 17)
    [4] 17/07/1656 - 150 days later: waters peak & Ark 'rests' on Ararat Mts. (Gen 7:24 & 8:4)
    [5] 01/10/1656 - Mountaintops seen during abatement. (Gen 8:5)
    [6] 11/11/1656 - 40 days after mountaintops seen. Window opened: Raven & Dove 1 (Gen 8:6-9)
    [7] 18/11/1656 - 7 days later: Dove 2. (Gen 8:10)
    [8] 25/11/1656 - 7 days later: Dove 3. (Gen 8:12)
    [9] 17/12/1656 - Waters abated in 150 days (Gen 8:3)
    [10] 01/01/1657 - Ark covers removed (Gen 8:13)
    [11] 27/02/1657 - Ground dry, Noah and animals leave Ark. (Gen 8:14-16)
[Item], 30 Day, 10 Month, Year.
  • [1] 10/02/1656 - Noah and animals enter ark (Gen 7:6-10)
    [2] 17/02/1656 - Start of flood (Gen 7:11)
    [3] 27/03/1656 - Rain stops, waters still increasing (Gen 7:12, 17)
    [4] 17/07/1656 - 150 days later: waters peak & Ark 'rests' on Ararat Mts. (Gen 7:24 & 8:4)
    [5] 01/10/1656 - Mountaintops seen during abatement. (Gen 8:5)
    [10] 01/01/1657 - Ark covers removed (Gen 8:13)
    [6] 11/01/1657 - 40 days after mountaintops seen. Window opened: Raven & Dove 1 (Gen 8:6-9)
    [7] 18/01/1657 - 7 days later: Dove 2. (Gen 8:10)
    [8] 25/01/1657 - 7 days later: Dove 3. (Gen 8:12)
    [9] 17/02/1657 - Waters fully abated in 150 days (Gen 8:3)
    [11] 27/02/1657 - Ground dry, Noah and animals leave Ark. (Gen 8:14-16)
Note that both 10 month and 12 month calendars fit the dates and days given by the author/compiler of the book of Genesis. Both models assume 30 day months. The 12 month model has two long time gaps, the first between the sending of the birds (items 5-7) and the removal of the Ark's covers (item 10), and again between the removal of the Ark covers (item 9) and the exit from the Ark (item 11).

The 10-month model has the problem of whether inserting the uncovering of the Ark (item 10) reflects the chronology presented by the text, especially the specific mention of the opening of the window for the birds (item 5), as opposed to the chronology of the dates implied by a ten-month year. But, surprisingly, a 10-month year still fits the sequence of days and dates given in the text, even if so-doing would disturb the textual flow of the extant narrative. Hebrew narrative does not have to occur in strict chonological order, however.

Genesis 7-8 is one of the key Biblical evidences of a 30-day month. Obviously the date of authorship is disputed, but I find it significant that the names of the post-Exodus months are not given by the author when referring to the ante-diluvian world. This implies the month names were either not known and thus forgone deliberately by a hypothetical late author, or they had changed in the interim and an early author did not want to confuse that with the new calendar established in the covenant at Mt. Horeb. How many months there were in Noah's year remains hard to conclude from this body of evidence because both 10 and 12 fit the dates given in the text.

A change in the months/calendar after the Deluge until the time of the Exodus remains unsolvable from the Biblical text because there are no more specific mentions of days, months and years like Genesis 7-8 until the Exodus itself. The word month (singular or plural) occurs 11 times in Genesis 7-8, thrice between Gen 8 and Exo 12 (Gen 29:14; 38:24; Exo 2:2), and after Exo 12 the importance of the calculation of the month resurges in the text with 70 mentions between Exo 12 and Deu 33:14 (the last mention in the Torah), in addition to another ~208 mentions in the remainder of the Hebrew scriptures.

In Exodus 12, Moses is specifically commanded to demarkate the 14th day of Aviv as the first day and month of their year (Exo 12:2-4). Had the calendar changed at that time? Is this why a new calendar is instituted at that time? It is quite possible, and Velikovsky cites a number of sources that prior to the Exodus, most of the world employed a 30 day, 12 month, 360 day year calendar.2

Calculating the month becomes a critical component of the Hebrew calendar and religion, especially in Leviticus chapter 23 and Numbers chapters 28-29 (see esp. Num 28:11 - sacrifices on the New Moon). Velikovsky cites Deuteronomy 34:8 and Numbers 20:29, linking them to Deuteronomy 21:13 that the days of Jewish mourning for the dead was one month, which in Moses' and Aaron's cases was exactly 30 days.3 That there were twelve months in the Hebrew calendar at the time is clear from 2 Kings 25:27. It does not matter that this text was after the calendar reforms of King Uzziah and the conflagration of his time that necessitated it; that was an extension from 360 to 365 1/4 days in the year. The 12 months remained as they had been since the Exodus event.

The oral Torah (Talmud) is clear that there were 12 months in the year, and 30 days in each month at least until the celestial disturbances during the reign of King Uzziah when calendar reform was instituted.4 The Talmud is likewise emphatic in the importance placed upon strict adherence to the dating of the Jewish festivals according to an accurate calendar: their obedience to the covenant at Horeb depended on it!

Notes:
[1] I reject the Septuagint (LXX) dates simply due to the absurdity of Methuselah surviving ~17 years after the flood according to LXX chronogenealogical computation. In the MT tradition, Methuselah dies in the year of the Flood, which is the meaning of his name (His death shall send forth).
[2] Velikovsky, Worlds in Collision pp. 330-342.
[3] Velikovsky, Worlds in Collision p. 335.
[4] See Tractate Berakhot 10b; Pesahim 56a; Ginzberg, Legends of the Jews Vol. VI, p. 369, all cited by Velikovsky, Worlds in Collision, pp. 351-354.

Brent72
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Re: Time & 360 Day Year

Unread post by Brent72 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:00 pm

jtb wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:13 am
The New Testament uses a 360 day year in prophecy for the future, which contradicts our present 365 1/4 day year. I didn't mean to infer that Velikovsky predicted a future 360 day year. Velikovsky was Jewish and obviously rejected the New Testament when he refuses to use the acronym BC (Before Christ).

The author of my posted link used "Worlds in Collision" as a reference that Earth at one time had a 360 day year. He maintains that Earth must return to a 360 day year to fulfill Biblical prophesy.

Jtb I agree that a big impact event is on the cards. ‘A third of the rivers’ on earth getting wiped out is a pretty big asteroid.
But have you considered the scenario where there is no change to Earth’s orbit and the 365 1/4 day years continue as is, but the prophetic events are still measured by 360-day years according to God’s calendar (i.e. 3 1/2 years = 1260 days)? In other words most people wouldn’t know the timing of events if using the (current) 365 1/4 day calendar.

Another scenario that doesn’t involve an orbit-modifying collision is that the ‘man of lawlessness’ will change the time and seasons as per Dan 7:25..?

jtb
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Re: Time & 360 Day Year

Unread post by jtb » Thu Dec 19, 2019 9:06 pm

Hi Brent. This research has led me to rethink what "time" is. I came to the conclusion that time is a repetitive measured interval of motion: sunup to sunup, new moon to new moon, hand on a clock moving from noon to noon, etc.... Each is a separate frame of reference, or starting point. Years ago in the military, when we still had mechanical wrist watches, we synchronized our watches before an operation so everyone was operating on the same frame of reference. Every watch was a different frame of reference until synchronized.

A "day" in the Bible is not 24 hours, but repetitively measured evening to evening, however long it takes. Likewise, a year is repetitively measured spring equinox to spring equinox, however long it takes. A new frame of reference is created when the repetition rate changes. The 360 day year and the 3651/4 day year are 2 different frames of reference. I don't see how what you suggest could work. I'm at a loss. Maybe you can figure something out. Good question. Merry Christmas & God bless.

Brent72
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Re: Time & 360 Day Year

Unread post by Brent72 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:36 pm

Thanks for your reply jtb. Good point about having a frame of reference. It would seem that the frame of reference for Daniel’s ‘70th week’ (the final 7 years) is a 7 x 360 day time interval, (or 7 x 12 months x 30 days). I would suggest that this is still the frame of reference even though our current frame of reference for one year is measured as one earth orbit of the sun. So even if we are using calendars with the 365 1/4 day year at the time of the 70th week, it is not going to change the timing of events according to the bible’s frame of reference. For example, 3 1/2 years or 1260 days (1260 evening to evenings as you point out) into the 70th week will see the events of Dan 9:27. But this will be slightly less than 3 1/2 years on the current ‘earth orbit’ calendar. Hope this makes sense.
Hope you have a good Christmas too.

moses
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Re: Time & 360 Day Year

Unread post by moses » Fri Dec 20, 2019 7:44 pm

So maybe 60 years was not 60 x the length of 1 year but rather the time that a certain amount of precession was measured.
Cheers,
Mo

Brent72
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Re: Time & 360 Day Year

Unread post by Brent72 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:11 am

It may be that originally the solar year was 360 days and exactly 12 moon orbits. But since about 701 BC, the solar year has been longer than the ‘lunar’ year. I think it comes down to a debate about which frame of reference should we use?

jtb
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Re: Time & 360 Day Year

Unread post by jtb » Tue Dec 24, 2019 6:47 am

Agree. I have come to the conclusion that before the reign of Hezekiah, we had a 360 day year with 30 days in each month. That implies circular rather than oblong orbits. Ancient calendars all changed during his reign. Something happened that caused a 365 1/4 day year and varying lengths of months. Read "World's in Collision" by Immanuel Velikovsky. Another thing I noticed is that in the OT, a day was measured from evening to evening. In the NT a day is measured from morning to morning. Something happened. However, I believe we will know that we are in the 7 year time of tribulation when we return to a 30 day month and 360 day year.

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