Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:40 pm

jtb wrote:I gave him my opinion on my last paper and he wrote I would flunk you but I don:t want you in my class again.
allynh wrote:That happened to me time and again, not just in school.
Had a valuable lesson. My superior would always ask my opinion but never follow my recommendations, so I challenged him one day. He said he valued my opinion above others, but he was privy to additional information not available to me.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:45 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:The KJV is notoriously badly translated.
Example please. 70 Hebrew and Greek scholars from Oxford and Cambridge Colleges compared notes before deciding on the text.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:55 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Fomenko ... does not offer 'very solid evidence for his views'. I challenge you to provide examples.
As I said before, it:s a matter of faith what you believe because history is fake news.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:03 pm

jtb wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:The KJV is notoriously badly translated.
Example please. 70 Hebrew and Greek scholars from Oxford and Cambridge Colleges compared notes before deciding on the text.

Scholars from 400 years ago when British knowledge of Hebrew was nowhere as extensive as today.
https://ehrmanblog.org/problems-with-th ... s-version/
http://watch-unto-prayer.org/TR-kjv-issues.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/kjvdefects.html
They are the result of a quick google. Anyone who has done any serious reading knows there are problems.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:14 pm

jtb wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:Fomenko ... does not offer 'very solid evidence for his views'. I challenge you to provide examples.
As I said before, it:s a matter of faith what you believe because history is fake news.

Funny how you ask me to provide evidence yet you continually fall back on this nonsense about faith.

Your statement that 'history is fake news' borders on the insane. Are you telling me that the USA did not hold a presidential election last November? Did the Patriots not win that Soup Bowl thing at the beginning of this month?

You didn't say what the point of this bible thing is.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:28 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:https://ehrmanblog.org/problems-with-th ... s-version/
But it is decidedly not a good study Bible. That is for several reasons: one is that the manuscripts of the New Testament it is based on (going back to the Textus Receptus – i.e. the original edition by Erasmus) were not ancient or of high quality. The other is that the language used is from over 400 years ago, and can be easily misunderstood – or not understood at all.

The manuscripts were not ancient or of high quality because they were copies of letters passed around and extensively studied by the early church. They are also called the Majority Texts because there were so many copies. The letters that sat on a shelf and no one used are naturally ancient and of higher quality.

Webster:s 1828 Dictionary should be used to find the definition of words used in the KJV1611.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:33 pm

Fomenko believes the Roman Catholic Church and their 'order' of Jesuits were responsible for faking history, inserting 1000 years plus of forgeries to make people believe that Jesus Christ was born about 1 AD.

Yet the Roman Catholic Church tried to stop, even kill, anyone owning or reading a bible which contained this real history, which Fomenko claims the RC were trying to promote, which cross-references Jesus to Augustus Caesar, and other events two thousand years ago!

Everyone who has read the bible knows it contains a ***lot of history, for instance; the Exodus, (specifically where Velikovsky started his historical criticism), the books of Kings, the Acts of the Apostles in the New Testament. There are references to Roman Emperors, places and events around the Mediterranean, in what is now Syria, Israel, Turkey, Greece, Malta, Crete, Cyprus, Italy, Egypt etc...The Roman Catholics tried to suppress ordinary people (the 'laity') from owning or reading the bible:

Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:

"... to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to [be] explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted."

Anyone heard of the 'Inquisition'?

"The Council of Toulouse, which met in November of 1229, about the time of the crusade against the Albigensians, set up a special ecclesiastical tribunal, or court, known as the Inquisition (Lat. inquisitio, an inquiry), to search out and try heretics. Twenty of the forty-five articles decreed by the Council dealt with heretics and heresy. It ruled in part:

"Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed."

"Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed."

"Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any ****translation of these books." [Latin only!]

"Some Catholics may doubt that there even was a Church Council in Toulouse France in 1229. The following quotes are offered as corroborating evidence:"

"After the death of Innocent III, the Synod of Toulouse directed in 1229 its fourteenth canon against the misuse of Sacred Scripture on the part of the Cathari: "prohibemus, ne libros Veteris et Novi Testamenti laicis permittatur habere" [forbidden, no books Old and New Testament are permitted to the laity]

"Source: The 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia article on Scripture."

Yet Fomenko believes the same 'Church', (I would say the same murderous human political power group that had 'hijacked' the Christian Faith) was trying to forge a thousand years of false history

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/banned.htm
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:43 pm

Webster:s 1828 Dictionary should be used to find the definition of words used in the KJV1611.
A 200 year old dictionary, of course. No home should be without one.
From the same Ehrman page.
The King James translators also translated some animal names into animals that in fact we now have pretty good reason for thinking don’t actually exist:
•unicorn (Deut. 33:17)
•satyr (Isa 13:21);
•dragon (Deut 32:33) (for serpent)
•cockatrice (Iswa 11:8),
•arrowsnake (Gen 49:11, in the margin).

I notice you didn't use anything from the two Christian sites, both of which mention mistranslations rather than just archaic words.

You still haven't said why you asked if I had read the bible so I'm guessing that my reply undermined what you were going to say.

You still haven't answered any of my questions really.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:00 pm

Anyone heard of the 'Inquisition'?
I have. Have you heard of the Reformation, Renaissance, the Enlightenment, Atheism, modern scholarship?
Do you seriously believe the Catholic church had the resources to fabricate who knows how many thousands of documents in India, Iran, China and Japan for example?
Do you think the Jews and Muslims would have sat there quietly while the Catholics systematically altered their histories etc?
Do you not think that arch-atheists such as Dawkins and Hitchens would not leap at the chance to use Fomenko if they thought there was anything in it worth using? What about all those crack-pot fundamentalists Protestants in the USA, would they not be keen to to use this against the Roman church? Ditto for the Muslim equivalent against the west?

And how does this tie in with Scalinger who was a Huguenot?

All that about the Catholic church resisting the production of bibles translated into the vernacular is well-documented as has been for several centuries. If I'm not mistaken, I was taught it at school. No cover-up; no conspiracy.

Did you read the essay at the link provided by sketch? Do you have any comments on it?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:16 pm

Grey Cloud wrote: The King James translators also translated some animal names into animals that in fact we now have pretty good reason for thinking don’t actually exist:
•unicorn (Deut. 33:17)
•satyr (Isa 13:21);
•dragon (Deut 32:33) (for serpent)
•cockatrice (Iswa 11:8),
•arrowsnake (Gen 49:11, in the margin).
Webster:s 1828 dictionary defines the above animals. Arrow snake is not in the text of the KJV1611 and therefore not in the dictionary. One Look Dictionary online has various dictionaries to chose from, including the 1828.
Grey Cloud wrote:I notice you didn't use anything from the two Christian sites, both of which mention mistranslations rather than just archaic words. You still haven't said why you asked if I had read the bible so I'm guessing that my reply undermined what you were going to say. You still haven't answered any of my questions really.
Grey, you are welcome to discuss individual Bible issues with me via e-mail. This sideline discussion detracts from the original thread. I just wanted to know the depth of your Bible knowledge, which appears you consider fake news. As I said before, history is a matter of faith and I am not going to tell you what to believe. If you have Bible questions, send me an e-mail. If you have history questions, research on your own and form your own conclusions.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:40 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Funny how you ask me to provide evidence
When did I ask you to provide evidence?
Don:t recall.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:57 pm

I agree that we should try to keep on topic, I'm the worst when it comes to drifting on to other subjects... I love science, the idea that people can discuss ideas openly and without ad hominem childishness, to challenge and be challenged by new ideas...

Why should science try to look objectively at chronology? Why should historians need to pin times, dates, historical events to a standard or yardstick? The simple truth is different cultures had different ways of recording events, even different ways to think about time, some cultures could be argued to have no such notion as that of linear time.

For example, the Jews:

Ancient peoples [sometimes] started to count their calendar years anew with the reign of each new monarch. When Christianity rose to dominance in the western world, it began to date history from the birth of its own "king," later according to the Gregorian calendar. Hence, history was divided into BC and AD, before the advent of the king's birth and in the "year of the lord." Judaism could not consent to divide history along these lines; it did not divide universal history even to make a fulcrum of Abraham's or Moses' birth. Therefore, the Jewish religious calendar was never oriented in this manner.

For many centuries, the Jews counted the years from one event -- the formative event of its existence as a people -- the Exodus from Egypt. After the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE, that cataclysmic event for a while replaced the use of the Exodus as the inaugural date.

But the sense of the Jew in this regard, which came to expression only after centuries, was that even an event of such magnitude was not critical enough to draw a line through time and to re-start counting world history.

Only one occurrence could serve as a beginning for history: the beginning of history. Judaism determined to count the years of the calendar on a universal scale -- from the creation of the universe. But exactly how old is the earth?

Jews count the months by the moon; western civilization patterns its calendar after the sun. That presents a dilemma. The moon travels more slowly than the sun -- by approximately 48 minutes a day. At the beginning of the lunar month, she sets in the west shortly after sunset, and each day 40 to 45 minutes later. She continues to lag further and further behind the sun (each lunar month being 29-1/2 days) until, at the end of 12 months, the year of the moon is 11 days shorter than the year of the sun, every three years losing a full month of time.

This introduces a special predicament for the religious calendar: Passover needs to be celebrated at the vernal equinox -- springtime and harvest are its natural hallmarks, the resuscitation of nature coinciding with the redemption of the people. But, if the lunar calendar loses a month every three years, Passover would move further each year and fall successively in every season of the year. That is exactly what happens to the Muslim festival of Ramadan.

In Jewish time, the day begins with the onset of night (the appearance of the stars) followed by the morning (which technically begins with the appearance of the North Star). According to some Jewish teachers, night and morning begin with sunset and sunrise respectively. For that is how the Torah describes it: "And there was evening and there was morning, the first day."

Beginning the day with the night is, in a sense, a metaphor of life itself. Life begins in the darkness of the womb, then bursts into the brightness of the light and eventually settles into the darkness of the grave, which, in turn, is followed by a new dawn in the world-to-come.

http://www.aish.com/jl/hol/o/48944546.html

Scaliger used a sort of rational approach, or science, to reconcile the histories of different nations and cultures, and fit together known historical sequences, and historical interactions of different peoples and cultures,including sightings of eclipses, to come to a sort of yardstick timeline, which people like Isaac Newton, Velikovsky, and others can challenge and refine using careful reasoning, while superficially similar to Fomenko, Isaac Newton and Velikovsky put forward sensible reasons for challenging the 'accepted' Egyptian and related chronology developed especially in the 1800's by Flinders-Petrie, both Newton and V challenged the king lists of Manetho which presented an unlikely sequence of Egyptian kings.

Velikovsky showed the histories of the Jews and the Egyptians were offset by about 400 years, leading to unknown pharoahs in the Jewish record, and corresponding doubling of Egyptian pharoahs, the visit to Solomon of an unknown queen 'of Egypt and Ethiopia' according to Josephus, and a visit by Hatshepsut to an unknown land where she brought back peacocks apes and trees, the same items as described as gifts in the story of Solomon and the Queen of Sheba in the bible.

Hatshepsut had a younger co-regent Thutmoses III, he invaded an unknown place and came back with spoil:

(The Egyptians would hear about the wealth of Solomon, first from Hatshepsut, then from Jeroboam and probably others)
1 Kings 11:40
Solomon sought therefore to put Jeroboam to death; but Jeroboam arose and fled to Egypt to Shishak king of Egypt, and he was in Egypt until the death of Solomon.

2 Chronicles 12:2 (The Egyptians plunder Solomon's temple)
And it came about in King Rehoboam's fifth year, because they had been unfaithful to the LORD, that Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem

Shortly afterwards, and unknown pharoah comes and plunders the temple:
2 Chronicles 12:9
So Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem, and took the treasures of the house of the LORD and the treasures of the king's palace. He took everything; he even took the golden shields which Solomon had made.

In Egypt at Hatshepsut's temple, is a huge carved wall showing the spoils taken from an unknown land by her younger co-regent Thutmoses III
No-one to this day has worked out where the mysterious Queen of Sheba came from, and no-one has worked out where Hatshepsut went, to receive peacocks and apes and exotic trees (Solomon was a collector) :-)

"After the death of Hatshepsut, and Thutmosis III's later rise to pharaoh of the kingdom, he created the largest empire Egypt had ever seen; no fewer than seventeen campaigns were conducted, and he conquered from Niya in ***North Syria to the Fourth Cataract of the Nile in Nubia."

"If we are correct in identifying Thutmose III with Shishak, then by comparing the Karnak inscriptions with the details in the Bible, we can follow Thutmose III from his victory at Megiddo to the gates of Jerusalem. Shishak did not destroy Jerusalem but instead confiscated the treasures in its temple and palace. The Karnak carvings depicting the loot Thutmose brought back to Egypt show 300 gold shields, doors overlaid with gold, and an assortment of utensils suitable for temple worship. Comparing the Karnak record to the Bible’s description of what Shishak took reveals remarkable similarity. 2 Chronicles 12:9 states, “"So Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem, and took away the treasures of the house of the Lord and the treasures of the king’s house; he took everything. He also carried away the gold shields which Solomon had made."” We know from 1 Kings 10:17 that Solomon had made 300 such gold shields.1 We also find record of the gold-overlaid doors in 1 Kings 6:32. The Karnak description does not identify the city from which these trophies came—only that they were brought to Egypt after Thutmose’s victory at Megiddo."

https://answersingenesis.org/archaeolog ... -stand-up/

This sequence of events, is one of hundreds put forward by Velikovsky to argue his case for a revised chronology.
Isaac Newton picks at the Egyptian record, and give his reasons for suggesting an exaggerated length and antiquity of the Egyptian dynasties.

Fomenko is doing an exaggerated version of these two, he is wiping a thousand years of real history in hundreds of countries, and thousands of events by suggesting a major deceptive conspiracy by the Jesuits.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:32 am

jtb wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:Funny how you ask me to provide evidence
When did I ask you to provide evidence?
Don:t recall.

posting.php?mode=quote&f=10&p=117657#pr117648

Grey, you are welcome to discuss individual Bible issues with me via e-mail. This sideline discussion detracts from the original thread. I just wanted to know the depth of your Bible knowledge, which appears you consider fake news. As I said before, history is a matter of faith and I am not going to tell you what to believe. If you have Bible questions, send me an e-mail. If you have history questions, research on your own and form your own conclusions.
I don't consider anything 'fake news', I never use any trendy buzzwords. I have no need to seek advice from someone who cannot get beyond using the word 'faith' in every post. The NT holds no great interest for me but I will continue doing my own digging and thinking about the OT when the situation requires it.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby GaryN » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:25 pm

I saw this fellow mentioned on another site, Peter James, and his book "Centuries of Darkness". I searched TB and found this older thread so thought I would link to it:
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... =10&t=4904
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:13 am

GaryN wrote:I saw this fellow mentioned on another site, Peter James, and his book "Centuries of Darkness". I searched TB and found this older thread so thought I would link to it:
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... =10&t=4904

Phttps://www.centuries.co.uk/eter James' website:

David Rohl is another one:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Rohl
I've read his Lords of Avaris which was very good. Seasmith has also read one of his books and rates him I think.
His official blog:
http://davidrohl.blogspot.co.uk/
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

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