Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:36 am

Grey Cloud wrote:jtb,
I wouldn't make too much of the numerology. The number 6 is the number of Earth. It means you are solid.
6+6+6 = 18. 1+8 = 9. The number 9 is the number of Man and relates to his position relative to 1 and 10 which are both numbers of the divine.
Thanks, Grey. So I:m a solid man. I never studied numerology, just know what happened to me.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:40 am

Grey Cloud wrote:jtb,
Supercomputers do not monitor global warming. They do not monitor anything - they just crunch the numbers put into them. A supercomputer has the same relationship to your PC that a F1 racing car does to your car. Same thing thing only much faster. You actually listened to a tour-guide?
Garbage in; garbage out. The same can be said for chronology. Who did you say you are listening to?
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:04 pm

Garbage in; garbage out. The same can be said for chronology. Who did you say you are listening to?

GIGO? Is that a reference to you and the tour guide?
The same can be said of Fomenko's chronology. As I've tried to show with the links, scholars utilise a vast, ever-evolving, array of sources for their chronology.
Who do I listen to? I listen to everything and make up my own mind based on that. I have read all the articles in those links. I read the sort of books they are reviewing. I read articles from the scholarly journals. I read Homer, Plato, Herodotos and many other ancient authors. I also read the weird and wonderful stuff on the web. And I think, long and hard.

Look at Fomenko's bibliography. No primary sources; his secondary and tertiary sources are mostly either soviet-era Russian or the sort of things that are in the public domain on the Internet (e.g. the much quoted Sayce).

You cannot answer any of my criticisms. All you can do is hold on to your belief that Fomenko is correct because you do not have any background knowledge of the subjects under discussion.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:37 pm

IMHO (well I'm not sure how humble I am :-) ) the issue about who to believe is important... I think people can be swayed by peer pressure or individual biases to believe things that are clearly likely to be false...

I don't believe this one author, Fomenko, one year older than myself, with his probable communist indoctrinated anti-religious education, with his weird system of evaluating history by mathematic formulae, is a reputable historian. IMHO :-)

Currently the mainstream media, google itself, and a myriad others openly admit filtering or restricting or manipulating so-called 'news'... politicians are caught out telling outright lies, and yet people are not shocked or dismayed enough, or are unable to insist on better behaviour. Universities have a strong pressure on students to bow to peer pressure. I read it was estimated half of recently published scientific papers make claims that are unreproducible. Big money messes with pure science. Commercial confidentiality hampers the growth of knowledge. Climategate showed that even big profile universities can attempt to tell lies. I have two books written about how Velikovsky was shamefully treated, despite his immaculate scholarly methods (and influential scholarly connections who even included Einstein). Yet Einstein the thinker had one of Velikovsky's books open on his desk the day Einstein died.

In chronology, my list of interlocking and cross referencing sources would be Herodotus, Homer, Pliny, Dudo, Xenophon, Marcellinus, the bible (BTW the bible has lots of history and chronology, and is the most studied, most picked over, most published book in history), the Septuagint, The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Gildas, Nennius, The Venerable Bede, The Annals of the Four Masters, The Irish Nennius, Caesar, Dudo, Tacitus, Hesiod, Isidore of Seville, Isaac Newton, Edward Gibbon, Joinville and Villehardouin, The Secret History of the Mongols, the Sira (life of Muhammad), some Hadith (sayings and complementary writings of the muslims, Josephus (about 80 AD, complete expounding of the Bible for his Roman patron, and important source for Jewish history), Marco Polo, Virgil, Plato, Livy, Thucydides, Jamiesons Etymological Dictionary of the Scots Language (with a 250 page historical introduction), Will Durant, Josh McDowell, Cyrus Gordon, John of Damascus, two cd's with hundreds and hundreds of writings of the Church Fathers mainly from before 500AD, the 'silver bible' written in Gothic, the Icelandic Sagas, the Irish Chronicles, the Annals of Ulster etc, Jordanes, The Frankish chronicles (741-849 AD), many books on the history, etymology and development of languages, eg the germanic languages, Gothic, Old Norse, Old High German, Old English (incl Beowulf), Irish, Breton, Welsh, Cornish and Scots Gaelic stories, legends and chronicles, biographies incl Patrick, Columba, Constantine, Attila the Hun, Pepin the Short, Charles Martel the Hammer, Roland, Hrolf the Ganger, Aethelstan, Tostig, Harald Hardrader, etc etc... and many hundreds of books with photos of architecture, paintings, pottery and sculpture, coins, illuminated manuscripts all which include a pretty complete picture of the the historical period before 1000 AD.

It doesn't mean I believe every part of every book mentioned is true, just that the general picture is an organic whole, for instance I believe Velikovsky is likely to be correct in his criticism of the chronology of Egypt that was set in cement by Flinders-Petrie, and thus many events in the near east being out of whack with duplicate reigns of some leaders, Velikovsky gives very detailed and reliable quotes for his sources. The Hittites=Chaldeans is also very believable. Also I think Isaac Newton may have something in his criticisms of the exaggerated length of the Egyptian past, so both V and N fit together in a loose sort of way; like Fomenko maintains; history can be falsified either deliberately or by generations of people being taught in error.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:21 pm

sketch,
Just a bit of advice as you are new to the forum. If you are intending to post something of any size, do it in notepad first. This forum software has a reputation for eating posts every now and again.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:37 pm

@Grey Cloud
Thanks for the advice, did something get chewed up at your end?
Every post I've sent seems to have gone through OK looking from here... I did have a few issues with one post about Roman Numerals, which php didn't like, then a screen dump and attach as pic limited me to 50k which seems excessively small, others seem to be able to post some higher res pics, I must be missing something :-)
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:53 am

Grey Cloud wrote:I read Homer, Plato, Herodotos and many other ancient authors. You cannot answer any of my criticisms. All you can do is hold on to your belief that Fomenko is correct because you do not have any background knowledge of the subjects under discussion.
Grey, have you read the Bible?

You misunderstand me. I never said that Fomenko is correct. I merely stated that he offers an alternative to the chronology developed by the Jesuits attempting to piece together the lost history before and during the Dark Ages. He offers some very solid evidence for his views. I am content to know that much of history is a fabrication written to influence societal beliefs, whatever they may be. Refer to my original post. I was offering an alternative to a video producer:s contention that Jesus was a fabrication based on ancient myths. My goal was accomplished when I got you to look at Fomenko:s works, whether or not you believe them to be true. As I said before, history is a matter of faith in what you believe to be true.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:10 am

sketch1946 wrote: Universities have a strong pressure on students to bow to peer pressure.
While working on my Masters, one of my professors would write on all my papers B plus, Very well written but I want your opinion. Cryptic for, give me your opinion and I will give you an A. I gave him my opinion on my last paper and he wrote I would flunk you but I don:t want you in my class again. When I was a kid, I didn:t know that I asked embarrassing questions. After 1 or 2 questions, unless I displayed 1 or 2 fingers, I could hold my hand up all day and the teachers wouldn:t call on me.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:45 am

sketch1946 wrote:@Grey Cloud
Thanks for the advice, did something get chewed up at your end?
Every post I've sent seems to have gone through OK looking from here... I did have a few issues with one post about Roman Numerals, which php didn't like, then a screen dump and attach as pic limited me to 50k which seems excessively small, others seem to be able to post some higher res pics, I must be missing something :-)

It's happened to me a few times over the years. The rheads are peppered with curses by others who it has happened to. It strikes without warning. :shock:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:54 am

jtb wrote:
sketch1946 wrote: Universities have a strong pressure on students to bow to peer pressure.
While working on my Masters, one of my professors would write on all my papers B plus, Very well written but I want your opinion. Cryptic for, give me your opinion and I will give you an A. I gave him my opinion on my last paper and he wrote I would flunk you but I don:t want you in my class again. When I was a kid, I didn:t know that I asked embarrassing questions. After 1 or 2 questions, unless I displayed 1 or 2 fingers, I could hold my hand up all day and the teachers wouldn:t call on me.

That is your experience. You cannot extrapolate it to include all of North America and Europe. It certainly does not reflect my experience.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:08 am

jtb wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:I read Homer, Plato, Herodotos and many other ancient authors. You cannot answer any of my criticisms. All you can do is hold on to your belief that Fomenko is correct because you do not have any background knowledge of the subjects under discussion.
Grey, have you read the Bible?

You misunderstand me. I never said that Fomenko is correct. I merely stated that he offers an alternative to the chronology developed by the Jesuits attempting to piece together the lost history before and during the Dark Ages. He offers some very solid evidence for his views. I am content to know that much of history is a fabrication written to influence societal beliefs, whatever they may be. Refer to my original post. I was offering an alternative to a video producer:s contention that Jesus was a fabrication based on ancient myths. My goal was accomplished when I got you to look at Fomenko:s works, whether or not you believe them to be true. As I said before, history is a matter of faith in what you believe to be true.

Which bible? I have read various chunks of the LXX, KJV, NIV and others. I own copies of the LXX and NIV. I also own copies of the Masoretic bible and the Koran, both of which I dip into from time to time.
I have read virtually all of the apophryca and pseudographica, the Qumran texts and the Nag Hammadi Library, the works of most of the early church fathers, various Christian apologists, ancient and modern and various critics ancient and modern.
Fomenko is not blaming the Jesuits is he? He constantly refers to Scalinger who was a Protestant. The Jesuits had little or no influence in e.g. Britain, Holland and Sweden.
He does not offer 'very solid evidence for his views'. I challenge you to provide examples.
You keep saying history is a matter of faith and keep saying it is not. It is a matter of examining evidence and drawing logical conclusions.
I have read lots of 'alternative' views of history over the years, I didn't need you to introduce me to the concept.
As for the video, yes I enjoyed it. It was one of the better and less sensationalist examples of the genre. There was nothing new in it and like most, if not all, of the others it is predicated on a complete misunderstanding of how all ancient societies wrote 'history'.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:26 am

OK, I found a link to an overview of Fomenko and his chronological theories...

Like most things it's obvious there is some truth mixed with some big porkies... I believe the wheelings and dealings of the medieval Roman Catholics were not always bastions of virtue... neither were any ancient tribe, Saxons, Scots, Picts, Irish, Vikings, Ostrogoths, Burgundians, Visigoths, Normans, Franks, Hunnic, Vandal, Alan, Magyar, Bulgar, and Muslim hordes, Frankish crusaders, or the dynasties of Mongols that stretched from Eastern Europe and Hungary to China and India, Persia and Mesopotamia, they all had their stories to tell, their claims to fame, their battles and defeats... various nationalistic or blatantly racist historians from every side have exaggerated, lied, manipulated stories but the greatest argument against Fomenko is the sheer volume of forgery that would have to be done, not just an impossibility, it's just a fairy story...

"The overwhelming argument against the Phantom Time concept is the effort to create/forge the written accounts, literature, poetry etc; and then to destroy all the traces of this fraudulent effort, is a task that one generation of writers could never fulfill. The enormous expenditure of effort this fraud would have needed makes these theories not just highly improbable but fantasies."

So naturally I don't agree with every word in this link, but overall it seems well informed:
http://members.westnet.com.au/gary-davi ... ge9bb.html
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby allynh » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:10 pm

jtb wrote:I gave him my opinion on my last paper and he wrote I would flunk you but I don:t want you in my class again.

That happened to me time and again, not just in school. The person in power demanded my opinion, just so that they could shoot me down. Just like you, when I gave my opinion it rattled them. People in power do not like to be rattled.

Each time it happened I wanted to say, "If you don't like my answers, stop asking me questions." HA!
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:11 pm

jtb wrote:Grey, have you read the Bible?
Grey Cloud wrote:Which bible?
I originally started reading the Gideon KJV1611 New Testament. I:m cheap so I studied various documents, took free correspondence courses, and talked to various people before I spent the $40 for a new Bible. A lot of money in 1980. I decided to stay with the KJV1611 because 100% of the verses from the OT Hebrew Masoretic and NT Greek Byzantine manuscripts were translated into English.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:32 pm

jtb wrote:
jtb wrote:Grey, have you read the Bible?
Grey Cloud wrote:Which bible?
I originally started reading the Gideon KJV1611 New Testament. I:m cheap so I studied various documents, took free correspondence courses, and talked to various people before I spent the $40 for a new Bible. A lot of money in 1980. I decided to stay with the KJV1611 because 100% of the verses from the OT Hebrew Masoretic and NT Greek Byzantine manuscripts were translated into English.

The KJV is notoriously badly translated. What is your point?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

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