Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:42 pm

Gary,
I agree about the need for a shake up but these guys are mainstream mathematicians. My point was that they do not have the requisite knowledge. I very much doubt that there is a historian, classicist or archaeologist who feels that they are competent to tackle such are wide area as Fomenko has done. Civilisations from Babylon to Britain, Novgorod to North Africa. More languages than you can shake a stick at; history; philology; archaeology; astronomy; numismatics; . . . Why it's just plain incommensurate.

As I've already said, Fomenko's basic premise is a straw-man. He's picked on a 16th century scholar (who I for one had never heard of) who, working with a very limited set of source material, attempted to instill some sort intellectual rigour into the the study of ancient history. Did Scalinger get things wrong? It would be a miracle if he didn't. Have scholars slavishly followed Scalinger for the last several hundred years? Have they chuff. The history of History is one of continuously changing and evolving theories. This includes modern events. As documents are de-classified new theories are put forward on the strength of the new information.

Questioning authority is fine but it doesn't necessarily follow that those who question are right just by dint of coming up with something different. The questioners should be questioned too.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby allynh » Fri Feb 03, 2017 8:21 pm

GaryN,

I completely missed The Lost Millennium, I'll track down a used copy and see what he has to say about Fomenko. Stuff like that is fun. Thanks...

Grey Cloud,

And having found and read them, what is your reaction to my criticism?

I'll wait until you have understood book one and revisited book two. I suspect that once you understand where Fomenko is coming from you won't have the same questions.

I did a quick search in book one for "Plato" and there were a number of hits.

I looked at the one from chapter 1, page 53. Go there and start reading. It looks like the reason he is not using Plato is that Plato never existed. HA!
01.jpg

Love this stuff.

I can't remember which book he said it in, but Robert Anton Wilson pointed out that he would become a believer in different systems of belief. That was the only way to truly understand them. He would totally embrace a system of belief, with no reservations. Then move on to the next when he was done.

If you wish to understand Fomenko, you must embrace Fomenko. Right now you are spending more time being outraged by Fomenko than you are learning Fomenko, thus you are missing everything he did.

I have found that concept of total acceptance to be the quickest way to learning something new. I have spent my life helping people get up to speed on new subjects. The people who embraced the new, learned fast. The ones who rejected the new, got nowhere fast.

When I was at University, studying Civil Engineering, I accidentally signed up for a course in Thermodynamics for Mechanical Engineers. Being a good student, I simply buckled down when the course started with a single atom and proceeded to spend the entire semester deriving the Q equation for flow in an open channel. An equation, that as a Civil Engineer, we learned in five minutes, then used all career. I was that "guy" in the class who had no clue what was going on. It was a beautiful insight, once I stopped kicking myself.

If you find that you cannot embrace Fomenko and learn what he has done, awesome. It's better to understand where you stand now than be that "guy" taking a class that has no clue about what's going on, where each new concept bounces off him.

If you can't handle that fact that Plato did not exist, as far as Fomenko is concerned, you are better off letting Fomenko go now. Acknowledge where you are and move on. Whatever choice you make will be the right one.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:43 am

Allynh,
I'll wait until you have understood book one and revisited book two. I suspect that once you understand where Fomenko is coming from you won't have the same questions.
So another cop out. Are my criticisms valid or not? If they are then they will still be valid if I read all 7 books.
According to the bibliography, Fomenko has only read Herodotus in translation not in the original Greek.

There may well be a number of hits in the text but there is no reference to Plato in the bibliography so therefore Fomenko does not appear to have read anything by Plato or used any of Plato's works to support his claims.
If Plato did not exist then how come we know who headed the Academy and when; how come he is mentioned by hundreds of ancient authors; how come the Islamic world had Plato's works for hundreds of years before they returned to the West? We also know a lot about Plato's family and students. Does Fomenko fit all of them into his mediaeval time-frame or does he ignore them?
Plato's teaching fell 'into oblivion' in the West because the Roman church under Justinian closed all the pagan schools. The Academy was open from c. 385 BCE to 529 CE. That's over 900 years. Many of the pagan intellectuals moved to the Eastern Roman empire, notably Alexandria and Damascus. When the muslims conquered the region the ancient texts, Greek and others, were utilised by the muslims. Sufi philosophy is very Platonic.
The texts first made their way back into the West via Spain and later Italy.
There were also early-, middle- and late-Platonists between Plato and the Neo-Platonists. Well known and well documented.
What Fomenko is saying in the image you posted (01.jpg) is incorrect.

Love this stuff.
That is because you are one of the ignorant and gullible. You have insufficient knowledge of history to enable you to make a rational judgement on Fomenko's rubbish.

I can't remember which book he said it in, but Robert Anton Wilson pointed out that he would become a believer in different systems of belief. That was the only way to truly understand them. He would totally embrace a system of belief, with no reservations. Then move on to the next when he was done.
Bertrand Russell said the same thing decades before Wilson in 'A History of Western Philosophy and Its Connection with Political and Social Circumstances from the Earliest Times to the Present Day', 1945. It is something I have done for many years.

I have no intention of reading book one and revisiting book two. I have read enough to see that he is a pillock.

If you find that you cannot embrace Fomenko and learn what he has done, awesome.
It is not a case of embracing Fomenko, or anyone else, it is a case of judging evidence. Fomenko hasn't got any.

Fomenko's readership was Russians who had grown up in the Soviet era and had had no access to western scholarship. They were ignorant and gullible. His books have got nowhere in western Europe because people are better educated and have better access to all sorts of books.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 04, 2017 11:28 am

john666,
I see you have deleted your last post which has taken out my reply to it. Wrong again were you?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby nick c » Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:51 pm

Hi GC,
I removed the post and your reply, which without the offending post would have no context.
Conspiracy theories are not appropriate subject matter for the TB Forum.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:46 pm

nick c wrote:Hi GC,
I removed the post and your reply, which without the offending post would have no context.
Conspiracy theories are not appropriate subject matter for the TB Forum.
Fair enough and agreed. I've no objection to you removing the 6:28 post.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:39 am

Grey Cloud wrote:jtb,
Have you got a link for the video about Jesus?
http://ifers.123.st/t213-jesus-christ-never-existed
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:54 am

jtb wrote:
Grey Cloud wrote:jtb,
Have you got a link for the video about Jesus?
http://ifers.123.st/t213-jesus-christ-never-existed

Thanks. Great timing, I was just looking for something to watch.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:07 am

jtb,
Apologies, I thought it would be the usual load of tripe and good for a laugh but I really enjoyed it. Thought the first half was better than the second but all in all good stuff.
Thanks again.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
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Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby GaryN » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:14 pm

http://ifers.123.st/t213-jesus-christ-never-existed


That video explains pretty well how I see the issue, but the true nature of the Sun now needs to be understood. If there were to have been a gnostic Jesus though, I would like to believe he was similar to the character described in the Mystical Life of Jesus, the Rosicrucian publication.
https://www.rosicrucian.org/rosicrucian ... e-of-jesus
I know little else about the Rosicrucians, just picked up the book in a charity store, as I do lots of others, and am presently working my way through Sitchins first book, The 12th Planet. Good entertainment for the price even if both are more imagination than fact, but so far Sitchin does come across as a serious scholar and not a sensationalist.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby allynh » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:31 pm

jtb,

That was a fun compilation of many videos. I had wiki pages open as I watched. It's going to take me many times to see all of the fun connections. Thanks...

GaryN,

The site you linked had the book available in pdf, for free. That's awesome. Thanks...
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby jtb » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:20 pm

As uncomfortable as it may be, I like to reserve judgement till I study both sides of an issue coming from both sides independently. I went to college late in life so I usually knew more than my professors. Rather than quote someone with an opposing view, often the same people presenting one side of an issue, would present their perception of the other side. It was indoctrination rather than education. Authors Sir Issac Newton, Immanuel Velikovsky, Alexander Hislop, and Anatoly Fomenko all claim that our currently accepted chronology has serious flaws. And, as I always hear said, the victor writes the history books, and, that history is constantly being rewritten. What we decide to believe, we believe by faith.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:56 am

jtb,
As uncomfortable as it may be, I like to reserve judgement till I study both sides of an issue coming from both sides independently.
Exactly. And I would add that sometimes, having read both sides one still has to reserve jusgement due to lack of convincing evidence on either side.

I went to uni in my thirties (Politics and Contemporary History). I was not taught 'facts', I was taught things like source discrimination, how to evaluate evidence and how to present an argument (supported by evidence from good sources). I was also taught about various politics and history theories which had come and gone and why they had come and gone along with various contemporay theories, their strengths and weaknesses etc.

There is a big difference between saying that 'accepted chronology has serious flaws' and saying that it is completely wrong.

What we decide to believe, we believe by faith
What I decide to believe, I decide after a lot of study and meditation. I have faith in me based on past results.
Last edited by Grey Cloud on Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:00 am

perpetual motion wrote:This may not be correct, but years ago I read through and heard through the GRAPE VINE that most
history books were rewritten by Harvard Scholar's back in the early 1920's and that they were paid
good monies by some group of people of high standards.
Just a little tidbit here.

More American parochialism. Harvard has never had the global reach (for want of a better term) to dictate what European unis can or cannot write.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:15 pm

If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
Grey Cloud
 
Posts: 2477
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:47 am
Location: NW UK

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