Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:33 pm

The pioneering work of chronological criticism leading to a need for revision of especially the Egyptian chronology belongs to Isaac Newton and Velikovsky, modern revisionists really need to demolish especially Velikovsky's arguments which were detailed careful and fully quoted logical reasons for identifying historical chronological errors.... Instead we have a rash of new writers fifty years later than Velikovsky, who was effectively demolished and pushed under the carpet by mainstream historians who have subsequently left themselves with 'the dark ages problem'... ie inconsistent and confusing chronologies throughout near east histories...

Velikovsky 'Ages in Chaos' 1952
"Velikovsky claimed in this book that the histories of Ancient Egypt and Ancient Israel are five centuries out of step. He began by claiming that the Exodus took place not, as orthodoxy has it, at some point during the New Kingdom, but at the fall of the Middle Kingdom. He identifies the Hyksos with the Biblical Amalekites, the Biblical Queen of Sheba with the Egyptian queen Hatshepsut, the Biblical Shishak king of Egypt with Pharaoh Thutmose III, and claims that the Egyptian Amarna letters from the late 18th Dynasty describe events from the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, roughly the time of King Ahab. Some specific proposals included:"

" Synchronising the Ipuwer Papyrus, from the beginning of Egypt's Second Intermediate Period, with the Biblical Exodus. (The Ipuwer Papyrus was conventionally dated to approximately 350 years before the conventional date of the Exodus (1450 BCE))."

" The concept of alter egos: historical figures who were known by different names in two different sources (e.g. Egyptian and Greek), and were conventionally considered to be entirely different people living in different centuries, but were proposed by Velikovsky to be actually erroneously dated accounts of the same individuals and events: Hatshepsut = Queen of Sheba. Solomon's kingdom = Punt. Thutmose III = King Shishak who sacked Jerusalem"

" Separating Horemheb and the 19th Dynasty pharaohs from the earlier 18th dynasty pharaohs. Instead, the 22nd through 25th dynasties follow upon the earlier part of the 18th, leading down to the Assyrian invasions of the early 7th century BCE."

" Identify each of the major 19th dynasty pharaohs with a corresponding pharaoh of the 26th. Thus, Rameses I becomes Necho I, Seti I becomes Psamtik I, Rameses II is Necho II, and Merneptah is Apries. In order to make these identifications work, Velikovsky postulates that the Neo-Babylonian kings are actually identical to the Kings of the Hittites, and therefore that Rameses II's battle with the Hittites at Kadesh is identical to Necho's fight against Nebuchadrezzar II at Carchemish. Thus Nabopolassar is Mursili II, Neriglissar is Muwatalli, Labashi-Marduk is Urhi-Teshup, and Nebuchadrezzar II is Hattusili III. "

" Having arrived at the Persian conquest, Velikovsky now has the problem of fitting in Manetho's 20th and 21st dynasties. The 20th dynasty here becomes identified with the dynasties which ruled a newly independent Egypt in the early 4th century BCE, and the Sea Peoples against whom Rameses III fought are now identified as the Greek mercenaries of the Persian Kings (who are here identified with detailed justification as the Peleset, normally seen as another name for the Philistines). The 21st dynasty then becomes a line of priest-kings who ruled simultaneously with the Persians."
http://www.velikovsky.info/Ages_in_Chaos

"Vern Crisler, who has, like Rohl and his ‘New’ Chronology colleagues, come to light with some useful proposals here and there, has also, like the latter, significantly divorced himself from the solid foundations laid by the pioneer revisionists. Vern has, for instance, abandoned the compelling Velikovskian/Courvillean/Glasgow identification of the biblical “King Shishak of Egypt” – who plundered the Temple of Yahweh at the time of king Rehoboam of Judah (1 Kings 14:25-26) – with the mighty (Napoleon-like) Thutmose III of Egypt’s 18th dynasty. By rejecting this equation, one also rejects all of the evidence that revisionists have stored up in favour of this view (e.g. the whole Hatshepsut/Sheba reconstruction; and queen Tahpenes; and Genubath = Genubatye, etc.)."
https://mosesegyptianised.wordpress.com ... courville/
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby seasmith » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:19 pm

Sketch 1946 (a very good year),

Some very good posts you've put up around here, much appreciated.

Re chronological "revisionists":
The ~300-400 year revisions for Near Eastern dynasties to the establishment canon, are just fly spatter on the longer view historical perspective, imho. Interesting for biblical scholars, but not so much for those investigating histories of the human race.

The notable achivement of D. Rohl and the UK school or whatever it's called is in establishing the 'Mesopotamian' link between the followers of Horus, and the very beginnings of Dynastic Egyptian history. In that time frame, a few centuries are inconsequential because that river/sea/land link clearly extends back into so-called neolithic times; again in my humble opinion.

In fact evidence for Rohl's case ( in Legend, Genesis of Civilization ) was just recently strengthened with the discovery of a whole new treasurer trove of petroglyphs in an ancient route between Egypt and the Red Sea.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016 ... ypt-found/

Definitely treat yourself to the hardcover version, for the total wealth of photos and images.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:47 pm

G'day seasmith,
Thanks for the nice comment, they're always welcome, I love nice comments :-)
Yeah, 1946 was a great year, though I remember very little

Couple of quick thoughts: In that article, the archeologists assume the boats are burial boats... but why? Anyone who has any experience of boats knows they need boat houses to build them in, they need cover from the sun and weather, and protection and repair etc

I've done a lot of research on Polynesian history, they have beautiful canoes described by Capt Cook as as good or exceeding the craftmanship of the finest cabinet makers of Europe... near Tahiti, they would dissassemble their double hulled war canoes, each member of the war 'team' would keep one piece at his house, they were tied together in ***exactly the same way as this huge 148 foot (45.4m) long cedar boat found in a boat pit neatly disassembled and stacked in a pit next to the great pyramid.. that end piece (prow) is something like four stories high from memory...
egypt boat buried next to great pyramid.jpg

presumably from the earliest pyramid building dynasties in Egypt. Next to the great Pyramid were long ramps leading down to the river.. the Egyptians certainly built some huge ships... see that post about Hatshepsut's barge that carried two 350 ton obelisks... it looks as if it had three tiers of oarsmen...

The 'Khufu Boat' had cedar planks tied together with rope and would have been caulked with pitch, as described in Homer's Odyssey; Tahitian and other polynesian canoes had planks were tied together using a system that left the outer hull clean and smooth, with holes drilled into the plank's ends, and then up through holes into the interior of the hull..

There are stories about how one Pharoah sent out ships to circumnavigate Africa, planting and reaping on the way... they also had extensive dealings of course with the Greeks, on Crete, Cyprus etc, also with the Phoenicians..

There are mentions in Sumerian records of extensive sea voyages, and also links to probably Ethiopia and southern Egypt, and it's entirely possible the Sumerians had contact with pre-historic Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa, possible even right into the far east... I read the Sumerian language was possibly tonic like Chinese..

My personal feeling is that pre-historic bronze age sea voyaging would have been all over the globe... why not, once you're in a boat, you can sail anywhere with some luck, some knowledge, and the desire for wealth, tin, gold, copper, etc

The crucial thing I think is the lower sea level way back 6000 years ago... most of the coastal fringes, the bed of the Black Sea, the North Sea, the bed of the Persian Gulf that.... were once dry land and so may contain the missing archaeological sites that history needs... more robotic undersea exploring required!
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:07 am

This is an important image historically, only five Egyptian artworks show the transport of large stonework.. this is from Deir el Bahari and shows the ships and a huge barge probably 90m long and 30m wide to transport two obelisks which are huge monolithic stones. Hatshepsut erected four obelisks, one broke during construction, one was calculated to be 323 tons
Hatshepsuts barge low res Obelisks_Panorama_+_drawing.jpg

This is a modern computer model of how it might have looked:
Queen-Hatshepsut obelisk barge.jpg

This is an unfinished obelisk to see how big they can be, quite an achievement for such an early date in history, but maybe not so early as everyone thinks... still 950 BC is still way back... :-)
unfinished obelisk.jpg

Hatshepsut is dated in conventional chronology to c1500 BC, she went to an unknown place called the land of pnt... and brought back a stack of exotic items including trees, peacocks and apes....Velikovsky identifies her with the Queen of Sheba who visited King Solomon in the bible record in about 950 BC, receiving gifts of exotic trees, apes, peacocks, myrrh, and whose co-regent came later to Jerusalem and plundered the Temple, Thutmosis III went somewhere and brought back a whole stack of plunder from an unknown place including 300 gold shields the same as Solomon had made for the Temple...

There are innumerable legends and stories about the Queen of Sheba, both the Arabs and the Ethiopians want to claim her.. if indeed it is true that she is Hatshepsut as Velikovsky shows, she hails from the the most southern part of Egypt, nearly down to Aswan, beyond which is the land of Cush, or Ethiopia...

The Jewish historian Josephus writing about 70 AD calls her 'the Queen of Egypt and Ethiopia', Solomon was supposed to have had a child with her... The rabbis who denounce Solomon interpret I Kings 10:13 as meaning that Solomon had criminal intercourse with the Queen of Sheba, the offspring of which was Nebuchadnezzar, who destroyed the Temple... I think they are confused with their chronology, they got the plundering of temple right, but have confused Nebuchadnezzar with Thutmosis III
(chronology is like that... ) :-)

"...the legend appears in the Kebra Nagast (Glory of the Kings), the Ethiopian national saga, translated from Arabic in 1322. Here Menelik I is the child of Solomon and Makeda (the Ethiopic name of Bilkis) from whom the Ethiopian dynasty claims descent to the present day. While the Abyssinian story offers much greater detail, it omits any mention of the Queen's hairy legs or any other element that might reflect on her unfavourably." (Hatshepsut ruled as Pharoah, which Josephus says was a problem, since Pharoah meant King... male...and Egypt had never had a female King.... Hatshepsut is depicted wearing a false beard in statues....)

"Based on the Gospels of Matthew (12:42) and Luke (11:31), the "queen of the South" is claimed to be the queen of Ethiopia. In those times, King Solomon sought merchants from all over the world, in order to buy materials for the building of the Temple. Among them was Tamrin, great merchant of Queen Makeda of Ethiopia. Having returned to Ethiopia, Tamrin told the queen of the wonderful things he had seen in Jerusalem, and of Solomon's wisdom and generosity, whereupon she decided to visit Solomon."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba

So Queen of Sheba=Hatshepsut is a crucial identification, but not the only one, for Velikovsky's chronological reconstruction.
Last edited by sketch1946 on Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:05 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby seasmith » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:47 am

Sketch ketched:
In that article, the archeologists assume the boats are burial boats... but why?

Exactly Rohl's firmly driven point, they were NOT "burial boats".
Nat Geo is only good for the pictures, the stories are often just stupid.

On a related story, if one is looking for the origins of the Greeks, follow the Argos to the west coast of the Black Seas ( Colchis and beyond),
to find the Golden Fleece.

cheers,
Argus
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:19 am

Seasmith wrote:
On a related story, if one is looking for the origins of the Greeks, follow the Argos to the west coast of the Black Seas ( Colchis and beyond), to find the Golden Fleece.
East coast, surely?
If I was trying to make that theory stick, I would concentrate on the return leg. ;)
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:44 am

Haha East is east and west is west, and ne'er the twain shall meet... :-)

BTW: I notice I'm the only other registered user on board, besides Bing the Bot.... I hope he's learning something!
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby seasmith » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:55 am

Image


Guess i should have said the West Coast of the Caucasian Isthmus, but that is sooo politically incorrect.
We know the west coast of the US is on the east side of the Pacific, but thank you for the correction.

shhhh, beware the bot...


ps, users have an option on the control panel to not show they are online.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:52 pm

My understanding of the story of the writing of the Argonautica is roughly this...
1. The greeks had a pair of stories attributed to Homer approx 900BC.
2. The early greek-speakers existed of many colonies and even tribes.
3. Herodotus goes into the understanding of part of this world by telling us what he was told by people who believed different traditions, ie origins of this or that tribe, who lived where etc..
4. The general situation in Homer is a world not far removed in time from the time the Greeks received writing, mathematics and many other things from Egypt and Babylon.
5. Homer, other writers and Herodotus confirm these interactions of Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Phoenicians.
6. There was a secret society called the 'mysteries' which everyone in the Greek world and probably also Egyptians were aware of.. in Greece at Eleusis, and Samothrace, in Egypt the cult of Osiris, in Rome another version...
7. People were initiated into these 'mysteries' and no-one was able to tell what went on in these ceremonies on pain of death..
8. Alexander the Great's father Phillip of Macedonia attended the mysteries at Eleusis, resulting eventually in Alex's birth
9. Aeschylus and Alcibiades were both writers who offended the mysteries.. and suffered for it
10. Apollonius came from Naucratis near Alexandria in Egypt, the capital city of the Greek world after Alex the Great died, Apollonius wrote the Argonautica as a history/legend to be publicly read like the Iliad or the Odyssey
11. People in those times (at least most people) generally considered the Iliad and the Odyssey stories to be true history, coloured up a bit with moral bits and various gods involved
12. The first reading of the Argonautica in Alexandria in Egypt resulted in a furore, I personally think this was related to somehow offending the mysteries... 'that about which we are not allowed to speak'
13. Apollonius went away to the Island of Rhodes, eventually rewriting his story to take place in the Black Sea, instead of out past the 'Pillars of Hercules' where his original story was set
14. When the story was rewritten, Apollonius now called 'Rhodius' was accepted back into Alexandrian society, became even famous...
15. The Greeks, Romans, and Egyptians knew all about the Black Sea, it was no mystery to them
16. The Odyssey and the Argonautica are great hero adventure sea stories... yet when Apollonius Rhodius wrote the Argonautica, there had been Greek and Phoenician colonies all around the Mediterranean and the Black Sea for centuries, so they knew the Mediterranean well...
mediterranean greek colonies red phoenician yellow 8th to 6th century BC German.jpg
(legend is in German sorry, the key is red=greek yellow=phoenician colonies, 800 BC to 600 BC...)
17. Plato is on record that the Greeks lived all around the Mediterranean, 'like frogs around a pond'
18. The Argonautica crew had to visit the mysteries to find out where to go and how to get back.
19. The story of Dido the Phoenician queen who founded Carthage in North Africa, and who had a love affair with the founder of Rome is embedded in the Argonautica
20. Trade secrets... the Phoenicians controlled the shipping in the Mediterranean before Rome, they were famously secretive about everything, so no-one would have know where they went to get the produce they sold, including timber, tin, and probably even drugs, like cocaine for trepanning etc... and other products they sold to the Egyptians and Babylonians and even Solomon... It is believed they traded with Cornwall at least, and down the coast of West Africa, had a couple of colonies on the coast of Spain, and outside the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibraltar) on the coast of Portugal...
21. There are drugs in the Argonautica story.. all the bucketloads of timber for Egypt couldn't possibly have come from Lebanon, most likely the Phoenicians had found a lucrative inexhaustible supply from Brazil...
22. For centuries scholars have pooh-poohed any idea of early trans-Atlantic travel... but... :-)
23. Just as scholars mocked Heinrich Schliemann who went and personally found the city of Troy, establishment scholars generally now still dismiss the Homeric epics, and the writings of Virgil and Apollonius Rhodius as merely literary inventions, poems composed for their own dramatic purposes, and deny the underlying history behind these fabulous 'myths', forgetting that Schliemann found Troy, they say he found the wrong one, at a wrong level, despite his famous 'Hector's cup' and 'Gold Mask of Agamemnon' that he found there...
24. etc.. that's enough for now....there's lot's more....
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Michael Anteski » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:13 am

I would question the idea that there was much exchange of oral traditions throughout the Meditarranean, in the time frame you are considering.

That was prehistory, not the more formalized historical period. "Greeks," then, were actually Minoan and Mycenean pre-Greek groups, who were seafaring rivals of the Phoenicians. -Babylonians, like the Phoenicians, were Semitic people, and they had their own traditions.

Plato, a Greek ca 340 BC, cites how his ancestor Solon (ca 600BC) went to Egypt, where the priests there let him in on their arcane lore concerning ancient Atlantis. This appears to have come down as a privileged sort of exchange of information granted to Solon.

If you study the cultural traditions of the Mediterranean peoples as far back as you mention, you find a lot of differences between them. I don't subscribe to the idea that you can combine them now into a common Mediterranean system of exchanging traditions.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:37 am

sketch
6. There was a secret society called the 'mysteries' which everyone in the Greek world and probably also Egyptians were aware of..
Not much of a secret then really.

8. Alexander the Great's father Phillip of Macedonia attended the mysteries at Eleusis, resulting eventually in Alex's birth
Eh?

9. Aeschylus and Alcibiades were both writers who offended the mysteries..
Aeschylus was poet/dramatist; Alcibiades wasn't a writer of any kind.

13. Apollonius went away to the Island of Rhodes, eventually rewriting his story to take place in the Black Sea, instead of out past the 'Pillars of Hercules' where his original story was set
Eh? Care to produce any evidence for that?

17. Plato is on record that the Greeks lived all around the Mediterranean, 'like frogs around a pond'

That phrase comes from 'Phaedo' [109a, 109b] and refers to people not just Greeks. Incidentally, the passage mentions the river Phasis which is in modern Georgia.

19. The story of Dido the Phoenician queen who founded Carthage in North Africa, and who had a love affair with the founder of Rome is embedded in the Argonautica
Would you care to explain that?

20. Trade secrets... the Phoenicians controlled the shipping in the Mediterraneanbefore Rome, they were famously secretive about everything, so no-one would have know where they went to get the produce they sold, including timber, tin, and probably even drugs, like cocaine for trepanning etc... and other products they sold to the Egyptians and Babylonians and even Solomon... It is believed they traded with Cornwall at least, and down the coast of West Africa, had a couple of colonies on the coast of Spain, and outside the Pillars of Hercules (Straits of Gibraltar) on the coast of Portugal...
Where are you getting this nonsense from?

21. There are drugs in the Argonautica story.. all the bucketloads of timber for Egypt couldn't possibly have come from Lebanon, most likely the Phoenicians had found a lucrative inexhaustible supply from Brazil...
There are drugs in lots ancient wrtitings. No one is claiming that all the timber used by Egypt came from Lebanon (which in any case did not exist then). What evidence do you have that the Egptians had any contact with Brazil?

23. Just as scholars mocked Heinrich Schliemann who went and personally found the city of Troy, establishment scholars generally now still dismiss the Homeric epics, and the writings of Virgil and Apollonius Rhodius as merely literary inventions, poems composed for their own dramatic purposes, and deny the underlying history behind these fabulous 'myths', forgetting that Schliemann found Troy, they say he found the wrong one, at a wrong level, despite his famous 'Hector's cup' and 'Gold Mask of Agamemnon' that he found there...
The highlighted section: no they do not. 'Hector's Cup' was Schliemann's (publicitiy generating name) for the vessel - it does not have 'Hector's Cup' written on it. The Mask of Agamemnon was discovered at Mycene not Troy.

24. etc.. that's enough for now....there's lot's more....
Don't hesitate to spare us.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:45 am

Michael Anteski wrote:I would question the idea that there was much exchange of oral traditions throughout the Meditarranean, in the time frame you are considering.

That was prehistory, not the more formalized historical period. "Greeks," then, were actually Minoan and Mycenean pre-Greek groups, who were seafaring rivals of the Phoenicians. -Babylonians, like the Phoenicians, were Semitic people, and they had their own traditions.

Plato, a Greek ca 340 BC, cites how his ancestor Solon (ca 600BC) went to Egypt, where the priests there let him in on their arcane lore concerning ancient Atlantis. This appears to have come down as a privileged sort of exchange of information granted to Solon.

If you study the cultural traditions of the Mediterranean peoples as far back as you mention, you find a lot of differences between them. I don't subscribe to the idea that you can combine them now into a common Mediterranean system of exchanging traditions.
Sorry, you couldn't be more wrong there. Firstly, it need not be oral as there was writing. That there were extensive trade networks is well established (e.g. Baltic amber and lapis lazuli from Afghanistan in the eastern Med) and the degree of inter-cultural interchange is subject to ongoing investigation by scholars.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby seasmith » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:47 am

Sketch,
You might want to read some Earlier histories. Hittite and Assyrian for example, where the great conquerers and kings of those empires were constantly taking expeditions up the headwater of the Tigris R. (north and east) and bringing back down-river, huge beams and timbers for their grand constructions.
The conquered peoples in those northeastern lands , for example Urartu, had then to pay tribute in wood and metals also.
Read also the stories of Gilgamesh, set in those same lands.

Even recent histories recognize that one time, before all the temples, palaces, bridges, boats, and bonfires were built; that huge conifer forests grew near the shores of the Black and Caspian Seas.
It's just a fact of nature that great redwood and cedar forests grow on the West Coasts of America, the Caucasus Isthmus, And the Levant (where Egypt got much of its conifer wood).
(note: Sea breeze and highlands are needed to wring out the moisture onto the forests)

Image
Grand Crossroad and Central Refuge of ancient Euro-Asia


some current books:
https://books.google.com/books?id=bMUGB ... ea&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=DoyTD ... ea&f=false
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:10 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:sketch
6. There was a secret society called the 'mysteries' which everyone in the Greek world and probably also Egyptians were aware of..
Not much of a secret then really.

Hey, Grey Cloud,
Are you giving me a hard time? You must be a skeptic?
I think it's good to be challenged, one of my sons constantly challenges my views and thoughts, it's very good for me, keeps me from trusting my memory...

I'm still learning this software, so this quoting may be messed up, but here goes...

Oracles and mysteries were documented from all around the Mediterranean, this isn't in question?

What went on inside these mysteries was famously kept secret for centuries even to this day, scholars speculate, but that's all... in Egypt Osiris, and at Eleusis, Samothrace etc, the actual details of what went on are still a mystery...
a bit like modern freemasonry, groups that get together and agree to never tell...

Have you read Sophocles, Euripedes, Aeschylus?

The 'tragedies' of the 'Bacchae' tell of foreign imported druggie cults..
"Dionysus <...>is the god of the grape harvest, winemaking and wine, of ****ritual madness [drugs], fertility, theatre and religious ecstasy in ancient Greek religion and myth. Wine played an important role in Greek culture, and the cult of Dionysus was the main religious focus for its unrestrained consumption. He may have been worshipped as early as c. 1500–1100 BC by Mycenean Greeks; [at Mycenae]

traces of Dionysian-type cult have also been found in ancient Minoan Crete. [in Crete]

His origins are uncertain, and his cults took many forms; some are described by ancient sources as Thracian, [Thrace?]

others as Greek.

In some cults, he arrives from the east, as an Asiatic foreigner; [Anatolia aka Turkey, Persia, Mesopotamia?]

in others, from Ethiopia in the South. [South of Egypt?]

He is a god of epiphany, "the god that comes", and his "foreignness" as an arriving outsider-god may be inherent and essential to his cults. [on record as foreign]

He is a major, popular figure of Greek mythology and religion, becoming increasingly important over time, and included in some lists of the twelve Olympians, as the last of their number, and the only god born from a mortal mother.
His festivals were the driving force behind the development of Greek theatre."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus

King Pentheus tries to stop this mad imported druggie cultism... he is murdered....
this could almost be a modern story aka 'the war on drugs'..., but with a 'tragic' end, the druggies win!

"...Pentheus soon banned the worship of the god Dionysus <...> and did not allow the women of Cadmeia to join in his rites."

"...Pentheus' mother Agave and his aunts Ino and Autonoë, along with all the other women of Thebes, <...> rush to Mount Cithaeron in a Bacchic frenzy. ..."

"Dionysus lured Pentheus out to spy on the Bacchic rites disguised as a woman, and Pentheus expected to see sexual activities. The daughters of Cadmus saw him in a tree <...>They pulled Pentheus down and tore him limb from limb (as part of a ritual known as the sparagmos). When his true identity was later discovered, officials exiled the women from Thebes. Some say that his own mother was the first to attack him, tearing his arm off and then tearing off his head. She placed the head on a stick and took it back to Thebes, but only realized whose head it was after meeting her father Cadmus."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentheus

8. Alexander the Great's father Phillip of Macedonia attended the mysteries at Eleusis, resulting eventually in Alex's birth
Eh?

Sorry, shouldn't have written from memory, Phillip attended the mysteries at Samothrace, not Eleusis...

“And we are told that Philip, after being initiated into the mysteries of Samothrace at the same time with Olympias, he himself being still a youth and she an orphan child, fell in love with her and betrothed himself to her at once with the consent of her brother, Arymbas.”
(Plutarch, Life of Alexander "

"According to Plutarch, this is how Macedonian king Phillip II met his future spouse Olympias, the Epirote princess of the Aeacid dynasty, during their initiation to the mysteries of Samothrace."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samothrace_temple_complex

9. Aeschylus and Alcibiades were both writers who offended the mysteries..
Aeschylus was poet/dramatist; Alcibiades wasn't a writer of any kind.


Sorry again, I should have written simply 'both Aeschylus and Alcibiades offended the mysteries' ...

"Numerous scholars have proposed that the power of the Eleusinian Mysteries came from the kykeon's functioning as an entheogen, or psychedelic agent. The use of potions or philtres for magical or religious purposes was relatively common in Greece and the ancient world. The initiates, sensitized by their fast and prepared by preceding ceremonies (see set and setting), may have been propelled by the effects of a powerful psychoactive potion into revelatory mind states with profound spiritual and intellectual ramifications. In opposition to this idea, other pointedly skeptical scholars note the lack of any solid evidence and stress the collective rather than individual character of initiation into the Mysteries. Indirect evidence in support of the entheogenic theory is that in 415 BC Athenian aristocrat Alcibiades was condemned partly because he took part in an "Eleusinian mystery" in a private house."

"Many psychoactive agents have been proposed as the significant element of kykeon, though without consensus or conclusive evidence. These include the ergot, a fungal parasite of the barley or rye grain, which contains the alkaloids lysergic acid amide (LSA), a precursor to LSD, and ergonovine. However, modern attempts to prepare a kykeon using ergot-parasitized barley have yielded inconclusive results, though Alexander Shulgin and Ann Shulgin describe both ergonovine and LSA to be known to produce LSD-like effects."

"Psychoactive mushrooms are another candidate. Terence McKenna speculated that the mysteries were focused around a variety of Psilocybe. Other entheogenic fungi, such as Amanita muscaria, have also been suggested.] A recent hypothesis suggests that the ancient Egyptians cultivated Psilocybe cubensis on barley and associated it with the deity Osiris."

"Another candidate for the psychoactive drug is an opioid derived from the poppy. The cult of the goddess Demeter may have brought the poppy from Crete to Eleusis; it is certain that opium was produced in Crete."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries

13. Apollonius went away to the Island of Rhodes, eventually rewriting his story to take place in the Black Sea, instead of out past the 'Pillars of Hercules' where his original story was set
Eh? Care to produce any evidence for that?
[/quote]
(another post... this is getting too long ):-)
sketch1946
 
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby seasmith » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:57 pm

"Psychoactive mushrooms are another candidate. Terence McKenna speculated that the mysteries were focused around a variety of Psilocybe. Other entheogenic fungi, such as Amanita muscaria, have also been suggested.] ...

"Another candidate for the psychoactive drug is an opioid derived from the poppy. The cult of the goddess Demeter may have brought the poppy from Crete to Eleusis; it is certain that opium was produced in Crete."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleusinian_Mysteries

... eventually rewriting his story [revisionism runs rampant throughout history -ss]
-sketch1946


I will leave GC to address the Greek stories, as he is much more versed; but re the "entheogenics", a glance at the Ninnion Tablet shown on your wiki link will feature a half-round likely mushroom cap front and center.
[Notice that these heroes were always following cattle around?]

As to the origins of the poppy on Crete, one might reasonably look East towards (the now) Afghanistan, where it is ancient and endemic.

Some scholars argued that the Eleusinian cult was a continuation of a Minoan cult,[21] probably affected by the Near East.

Probably effected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabeiri
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