Solar Electron Plumes

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Lloyd
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Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Feb 23, 2014 7:15 am

Polar Solar Electrons
I asked this question.
Any comments on the recent TB video on the heliosphere?
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 10:25:27 -0800 (PST)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygQIl-JaUUc

On Saturday, February 22, 2014 7:56 PM, someone wrote:
A ribbon of energetic neutral particles, where the surface of the heliosphere is parallel to the interstellar wind [the wind between stars, not between the Sun and heliosphere], does not prove the EU model. I'm not sure what it does prove, but just because it wasn't predicted by the mainstream model doesn't make it proof of the EU model. (That's a false dichotomy.) And if planetary nebulae were proof of the EU model, they would invalidate the Electric Sun model, because the Sun doesn't have bipolar jets. And if you ask questions about such things, you don't get answers. So it's new data, but the same false dichotomy.

In 2007 Upriver posted this.
Re: Recovered: The Electric Sun
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 9&start=45
Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:39 am Post subject: Reply with quote
OP "upriver"
- In the EU model the sun is powered by a radial "electric field". That really means there is a small electron drift inward opposite the direction of the solar wind.
- "My question would be "what pumps the electrons from the heliosphere to the sun, and back again?""
- I have not seen any thing that resembles a Birkeland current attached to the poles of the sun. There is a phenomenon called solar polar plumes which extend some 40AU from the poles of the sun. However there is debate(no observations) as to their extension to the heliosphere.
- Observation of Polar Plumes at High Solar Altitudes [outdated link:] http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~deforest/Papers/deep-lasco

Question for Brant: Are you sure about the 40AU figure for the plumes? The paper you quoted (shown next) only mentions 30R, which I think is about 13 million miles, which is only 0.14AU and only reaches about a third of the distance to Mercury.

Earlier Brant posted this.
Electric Universe Model
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread. ... del/page53
2006-Jan-21, 02:08 AM #1585
upriver Established Member
So there is a gradient of electrons in addition to the one that exists between the sun and the heliosphere;
- "ABSTRACT
Using the Large Angle Spectrometric Coronagraph (LASCO) aboard the SOHO spacecraft, we have imaged polar plumes extending 30 R from disk center in the image plane and ~45 R in three-dimensional space, a factor of 2-3 farther than previous measurements and well into the constant-velocity regime of wind flow. We find that the plumes maintain their overall linear morphology and density enhancement to at least this altitude range. Using LASCO photometry and a modeled cylindrical plume geometry, we derive the density excess within the plumes 30 R above the Sun (in three dimensions). The excess electron densities are a factor of 20-30 times greater than the average total electron density estimates obtained from extrapolation of in situ measurements by Ulysses at 1 AU."
http://www.boulder.swri.edu/~deforest/Papers/deep-lasco

Feb 22 at 10:50 PM [Someone said:]
Interestingly enough the sun does have solar polar plumes which I think are the precursor to bi polar jets. I dont know what make[s] the difference between the 2 states, whether its location or physical characteristics causing an increase in "current flow"+.... When you look at something like Antares, which is bigger than any galactic core, then you have to lean towards the location parameter...

Question for anyone: Isn't the Milky Way galactic core unusually small for a spiral galaxy?

What are the closest stars to Earth that could explode? [Credit: Sephirohq]
Antares Will explode: 0 to 1 million years from now
Distance: 550 light years
The red supergiant Antares has a companion star, Antares B, that is thought will contribute to a Type 1a supernova event in the coming years. However, the exact timing of the supernova is unknown. Antares is more than 880 times bigger than our Sun and thus the explosion is expected to be quite an event, but it is a great enough distance away from Earth to pose no threat.
- See more at: http://www.spaceanswers.com/deep-space/ ... jGou4.dpuf

Equatorial Solar Electrons
ACE News #115 - Sep 26, 2008
Solar Injection Histories of Near-Relativistic Solar Electrons
http://www.srl.caltech.edu/ACE/ACENews/ACENews115.html
The near-light speed and nearly scatter-free propagation out to 1 AU of 175-300 keV electrons preserves the essential details of their injection onto the interplanetary magnetic field. We have developed a quantitative method that uses the pitch-angle anisotropies to extract the electron injection history for near-relativistic beam-like solar electron events well past the rise-to-maximum phase. . . . Referring to the algorithm given in Fig. 1, we express the outgoing intensity j+ = jFIT(0°) and the ingoing intensity j- = jFIT(180°) along the field-line in terms of the "first-crossing" intensity (j0) and the mirroring intensity (jm). The simplicity of this algorithm yields the solar injection history (well past the intensity maximum) directly without recourse to models for acceleration/release or propagation. We are finding that it is not unusual for the injection history to last >1/2 day (bottom panel), implying that the acceleration/release process for near-relativistic electrons is extended much longer than the flash phase of solar flares.
- This item was contributed by Dennis K Haggerty and Edmond C Roelof (JHUAPL). Address questions and comments to Dennis.Haggerty@jhuapl.edu or Edmund.Roelof@jhuapl.edu

Question for Charles: Since your model has stars evolving electrically from nebulae into stars, could the Sun's polar plumes be remnants of the former nebula? And does the last data there on relativistic electrons in the solar wind fit into your model well?

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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Sun Feb 23, 2014 12:52 pm

Lloyd wrote:Since your model has stars evolving electrically from nebulae into stars, could the Sun's polar plumes be remnants of the former nebula?
I have two stellar models: one for main sequence stars (like our Sun), and the other for "exotic" stars (such as black holes, neutron stars, pulsars, magnetars, quasars, blazars, BL Lac objects, white dwarfs, and planetary nebulae). The model for the "exotic" stars is the "natural tokamak" (a.k.a., toroidal plasmoid) model, which has the geometry necessary to create bipolar jets. Main sequence stars, with their spherical geometry, cannot produce bipolar jets. The fast solar wind that emanates from coronal holes above the surface of the Sun would appear to have more to do with the magnetic field. Nearer the poles, the lines of force are perpendicular to the surface, while nearer the equator, they are parallel. Particles emanating from the equator have to cross such lines, and the Lorentz force acts as a brake, while particles coming out of the poles can form into Birkeland currents that are less impeded. But regardless of the difference between the slow and the fast winds (400 km/s versus 800 km/s), particles emerge from all points on the Sun. So the coronal holes really aren't like bipolar jets.
Lloyd wrote:And does the last data there on relativistic electrons in the solar wind fit into your model well?
Yes. In my model, electrons leaving the Sun start at a current divider, where they are attracted to a positive layer deeper inside the Sun, and also to the positively charged heliosphere, with little net field. But moving away from the current divider, the field density increases, as the electrons get further from the positive charge inside the Sun, and closer to the positive charge in the heliosphere. As a consequence, the particles accelerate.
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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:45 pm

Exotics
Charles, I guess exotics originate from nebulae too. Would you say so? Do you have an idea what the difference would be between how pre-exotic nebulae would look and how pre-stellar nebulae would? Would pre-exotic nebulae have rapid rotation? Or does that occur during the collapse stage?

Sunspot Exotic?
I was reading Leo somebody's theory yesterday. He said stars form between blackhole pairs, that HH objects, comets, sunspots and ball lightning are exotics. He said the Sun has blackholes at its poles. Since you say exotics have powerful magnetic fields and sunspots do too, is there any way that small exotics could form from sunspots? And have you come up with an idea yet to explain ball lightning? Have you read up on them?

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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:14 pm

Lloyd wrote:I guess exotics originate from nebulae too. Would you say so?
I would simply put it the other way around -- the bipolar jets that we call planetary nebulae can only be the axial emissions of toroidal plasmoids. So nebulae originate from exotics.
Lloyd wrote:Do you have an idea what the difference would be between how pre-exotic nebulae would look and how pre-stellar nebulae would? Would pre-exotic nebulae have rapid rotation? Or does that occur during the collapse stage?
The simpler model is that of main sequence stars, formed from dusty plasma collapses into spherical stars like our Sun, and on implosion, clank together and stay organized due to the attraction between current-free double-layers (CFDLs). The ignition stage would be a gradual increase in temperature and luminosity, up to a maximum on final aggregation, and thereafter slowly diminishing. In terms of the main sequence, the stages would be:

1. red giant -- collapsing dusty plasma begins to glow
2. blue giant -- collapse has completed, and peak temperature/luminosity has been achieved
3. yellow dwarf -- star slowly loses mass to stellar winds, and temp/luminosity slowly relaxes
4. brown dwarf -- star keeps sliding down main sequence toward obscurity
5. black dwarf -- not enough luminosity to call a star, so we call these "planets"

The very same collapsing dusty plasma, but with a whole lot more angular momentum, never reaches the center on implosion. Rather, the rapidly rotating accretion disc resolves into a toroidal plasmoid, kept organized by the magnetic pinch effect. If the pinch is powerful enough for nuclear fusion, the plasmoid ignites as a supernova. If the structure survives the ignition stage, an "exotic" star remains. The mainstream calls these "supernova remnants", thinking that the supernova was a thermonuclear explosion. But thermonukes don't leave remnants -- they vaporize everything at ground zero. This can only mean that they have it backwards -- the nuclear ignition does create the exotic star -- the exotic star ignites and releases gamma rays, sometimes not vigorously enough to destroy the structure, enabling persistence of the gamma ray source.
Lloyd wrote:He said stars form between blackhole pairs...
In my model, a "black hole" is an exotic star, and it just needs a rapidly rotating accretion disc to form.
Lloyd wrote:HH objects
Herbig-Haro objects are the terminations of bipolar jets. They can be created by black holes, or by related exotic star types, where the toroidal geometry enables bipolar emissions. But they aren't really objects in their own right -- they're the disintegration of an object (i.e., a bipolar jet) when the velocity is no longer sufficient for the z-pinch to keep the charge stream organized.
Lloyd wrote:comets
In what sense is a comet an exotic object?
Lloyd wrote:sunspots
Sunspots are not objects in their own right -- they're just a special class of Birkeland current.
Lloyd wrote:ball lightning
Here I would agree, at least if the contention is that both black holes and ball lightning are toroidal plasmoids. As concerns ball lightning literature, there isn't much to read, but somebody somewhere suggested that the current in a lightning strike can get so kinked that there is the possibility for one of the kinks to close on itself, forming an integral structure that will persist for a little while. The crackling and hissing sounds are then explained as charge recombination when the electrons leak past the plasmoid's z-pinch. That sounds reasonable to me. Without any more data, that's about as far as that will go.
Lloyd wrote:Since you say exotics have powerful magnetic fields and sunspots do too, is there any way that small exotics could form from sunspots?
The magnetic fields generated by exotic stars can be into the millions of Gauss, whereas the fields in sunspots are <4000 Gauss.
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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by upriver » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:45 am

"Scientist suggests new approach to measuring flow from the sun."

A scientist examining the solar wind suggests that our understanding of its structure may need significant reassessment. The plasma particles flowing from the Sun and blasting past the Earth might be configured more as a network of tubes than a river-like stream, according to Joseph Borovsky of Los Alamos National Laboratory's Space Science and Applications group.
In a paper in this week's Physical Review Letters, "Contribution of Strong Discontinuities to the Power Spectrum of the Solar Wind," (Physical Review Letters 105, 111102 [2010]), Borovsky challenges the concept that the solar wind is of fairly uniform structure, and therefore, our entire interpretation of spacecraft data may not be correct.
"For decades we have been interpreting the spectrum of fluctuations in the solar wind as a measurement of turbulence in the wind. However, it turns out that impurities (discontinuities) in plasma dominate the signal. Hence, the spectrum is not a clean measurement of turbulence, and it may not even be a measurement of turbulence," Borovsky said. In simpler terms, perhaps, we couldn't see the forest for the trees.
"Because we might be misunderstanding the solar wind, we might be misunderstanding its impact on the Earth's environment. Understanding solar wind allows us to understand the initiation and evolution of geomagnetic storms," said Herbert Funsten, chief scientist for the International, Space & Response Division at Los Alamos.
Borovosky argues that the discontinuities are part of a structure to the solar wind that looks like spaghetti, with the discontinuities being the boundaries between adjacent noodles (magnetic tubes). In this concept, the wind plasma is structured rather than being homogeneous. He suggests that the spaghetti structure of the solar-wind plasma reflects the "magnetic carpet" on the surface of the Sun, with the spaghetti in the wind being loose strands of the magnetic carpet.
"We have also argued that the spectrum measured in the wind is a `remnant' of the carpet on the Sun rather than a signature of turbulence in the wind plasma," he says.

http://tri-lab.lanl.gov/index.php/energ ... -structure

If you go to the article you can see the structure of the of the current sheet. Its thought that the tubes may extend to the heliosphere but its not sure. However it is my hypothesis that the density of flux tubes is greater at the orbital plane than at the poles. So comet Ison crosses the plane inside the orbit of Earth where the flux tube density is the greatest...
http://stereo-ssc.nascom.nasa.gov/comet_ison/
http://www.isoncampaign.org/potw-archive

This lead to a quick change from low brightness to high brightness. It also may be possible that comets can get hooked up with a flux tube that extends out past earths orbit....

The other parameter that may affect how a comet changes in brightness is the current sheet....
"The heliospheric current sheet (or HCS) is the boundary of the Sun's magnetic field separating the northern and southern polarity regions which extends out into the solar system. During the solar minimum, the sheet is almost flat and skirt-like. But during solar maximum, it's tilted, wavy and complex."
This means that the comet doesnt begin to change energy until it approaches the solar orbital plane.

And if my ideas and the orbit are correct then I predict that Ison will dim pretty quickly after perihelion.

And so on the long term erosion. Yes I think it occurring actively right now. And I think it is most active when the current sheet lines up the flux tubes with the orbiting body. Mind its not catastrophic like a thunderbolt but over 100's of thousands to millions of years of years it may be eroding the large craters into the shapes we see now.


Here is a presentation.
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2294214/The ... nformation

The references in the below article are very interesting.
Observation of the multifractal spectrum in the heliosphere and the heliosheath by Voyager 1 and 2
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... references

FROM THE MAGNETIC CARPET TO THE HELIOSPHERE
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1303.0563v1.pdf

Read more: http://www.universetoday.com/104023/is- ... z2lXrYmIpp

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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:31 am

Nicely done, Brant! Comets don't flare up for no reason at all -- they flare up when they pass through the heliospheric current sheet. That makes perfect sense! This sounds like a solid building block in the progress of our understanding of the electromagnetic nature of the Universe. My most sincere compliments!
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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:26 am

Interesting discussions above that I'll have to read more in depth later today or so. Here's a comment on the solar plasmasphere ribbon that I want to insert first.

Neutral Ribbon
The ribbon of neutral particles [on the surface of the heliosphere, as mentioned in the OP video] more than likely coincides with a ribbon of electrical connectivity in the same location, something that Alfven *did* predict. He does predict that stars are “wired together”, and that magnetic highway they are talking about is actually an *electromagnetic* highway.

Stellar Sources?
CC said: the bipolar jets that we call planetary nebulae can only be the axial emissions of toroidal plasmoids. So nebulae originate from exotics.
Then what collapses into regular stars and maybe planetoids? Maybe I need to reread your model there.

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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:45 pm

Lloyd wrote:
CC said: the bipolar jets that we call planetary nebulae can only be the axial emissions of toroidal plasmoids. So nebulae originate from exotics.
Then what collapses into regular stars and maybe planetoids? Maybe I need to reread your model there.
I'm saying that both the toroidal plasmoids in exotic stars, and the spherical double-layers in main sequence stars, and formed by collapsing dusty plasmas. The difference between the two is just the degree of angular momentum. If there is sufficient force to spin up the plasma to relativistic velocities, a toroidal plasmoid forms, and it becomes an exotic star. Otherwise, the plasma collapses into a slowly rotating, electrostatic sphere.
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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:08 pm

Dusty Plasmas vs. Nebulae
CharlesChandler wrote:
Lloyd wrote:
CC said: the bipolar jets that we call planetary nebulae can only be the axial emissions of toroidal plasmoids. So nebulae originate from exotics.
Then what collapses into regular stars and maybe planetoids? Maybe I need to reread your model there.
I'm saying that both the toroidal plasmoids in exotic stars, and the spherical double-layers in main sequence stars, [are] formed by collapsing dusty plasmas. The difference between the two is just the degree of angular momentum. If there is sufficient force to spin up the plasma to relativistic velocities, a toroidal plasmoid forms, and it becomes an exotic star. Otherwise, the plasma collapses into a slowly rotating, electrostatic sphere.
Okay. I thought dusty plasmas were called nebulae. You're saying all nebulae are bipolar jets formed in exotic systems.

Brown Dwarf Bipolar Jets
So now you're contradicting Cardona. He seems to me to be a rather thorough researcher and his background is in engineering. As I recall, he says brown dwarf stars are known to display jets, including bipolar jets, and that one of Saturn's bipolar jets was what early humans saw in the sky as the polar column. The other jet would have been undetectable on Earth, because it faced forward in the direction of Saturn's travel while spiraling in toward the Sun to its present orbit. He said this is how the bipolar jets behave: one faces forward and one rearward. So what do you have to say about that, wise guy?

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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by CharlesChandler » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:49 pm

Lloyd wrote:Brown Dwarf Bipolar Jets
So now you're contradicting Cardona. He seems to me to be a rather thorough researcher and his background is in engineering. As I recall, he says brown dwarf stars are known to display jets, including bipolar jets, and that one of Saturn's bipolar jets was what early humans saw in the sky as the polar column. The other jet would have been undetectable on Earth, because it faced forward in the direction of Saturn's travel while spiraling in toward the Sun to its present orbit. He said this is how the bipolar jets behave: one faces forward and one rearward. So what do you have to say about that, wise guy?
:D I dunno. :D I didn't know that brown dwarfs had bipolar jets. :oops:

One thing that I'd like to mention on that topic is that we might have to distinguish between the kinds of jets we're seeing in planetary nebulae, versus other things that some people are calling bipolar jets, such as the fast solar wind coming out of coronal holes, or even the Earth's aurora. There might be more than just a difference of degree there -- it might be a difference in kind. In a planetary nebula, the jets are the dominant feature. In quasars, the jets are dominant in radio astronomy, but invisible in other wavelengths. In the Sun, the "jets" aren't collimated, so calling them bipolar is a loose usage of the term, and they aren't generating any special photons. IMO, electrostatic spheres don't produce jets that are similar in kind to the jets coming out of toroidal plasmoids, so I go with two different models.
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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by Native » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:07 am

@ Lloyd,
You asked:
Question for anyone: Isn't the Milky Way galactic core unusually small for a spiral galaxy?
I use to determine galaxies in 2 basical types:
1) Spiral galaxies with tight spundled arms and a very luminous center indicating an inwards turning motion, gathering gases and particles into a broader center.
2) Barred galaxies (as ours) with open spundled arms and a lesser luminous center indicating an outwards turning motion, thus emptying the center which gives a visible luminous smaller core.
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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:39 pm

Bipolar Jets
CharlesChandler wrote: :D I dunno. :D I didn't know that brown dwarfs had bipolar jets. :oops:
One thing that I'd like to mention on that topic is that we might have to distinguish between the kinds of jets we're seeing in planetary nebulae, versus other things that some people are calling bipolar jets, such as the fast solar wind coming out of coronal holes, or even the Earth's aurora. There might be more than just a difference of degree there -- it might be a difference in kind. In a planetary nebula, the jets are the dominant feature. In quasars, the jets are dominant in radio astronomy, but invisible in other wavelengths. In the Sun, the "jets" aren't collimated, so calling them bipolar is a loose usage of the term, and they aren't generating any special photons. IMO, electrostatic spheres don't produce jets that are similar in kind to the jets coming out of toroidal plasmoids, so I go with two different models.
I reckon you're right about there being (at least) 2 kinds of bipolar jets. I just found this.
CLASSICAL T TAURI-LIKE OUTFLOW ACTIVITY IN THE BROWN DWARF MASS REGIME*
http://iopscience.iop.org/0004-637X/706/2/1054
Here, ISO-Oph 32 is shown to drive a blueshifted outflow with a radial velocity of 10-20 km s–1
That's a slow jet, whereas the tokamak-type jets are said to be relativistic, I think. Comets and moons produce jets or geysers, but not bipolar. Saturn's moon Enceladus has geysers that shoot what?, water ice?, out into space that join Saturn's rings, I think. And there may be another moon that does that too there. Jupiter's moon Io shoots up "volcanic" plumes high above its surface. The trouble is that the volcanoes move around. On Earth volcanoes stay put. Your model will probably get around to explaining such slow jets, plumes and geysers some day. But brown dwarf bipolar jets may be different from these others and different from those on the Sun too.
- I posted here http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=126&action=binary a set of images from the Alien Sky video that show Talbott's impression of the polar column or streamer of some kind between Venus and Mars seen in ancient times. I don't know if Cardona's brown dwarf bipolar jets are different or not. I might have to ask him that some day.

Here's a little extra material from my online search. It may be hard to tell the facts in this from the assumptions.
Jets from a Possible Young Brown Dwarf
http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/news/su200932
By measuring the velocities of the material in the disk around the star, the scientists were able to infer the mass of the star: currently only about fifty times that of Jupiter, making it a brown dwarf and the smallest known object to emit these collimated jets (although the star is still accreting material and will presumably grow larger). They determined that the jets were launched from a region very close to the star, probably from the inner edge of a disk, and confirm that these jets play a role in reducing the object's spin. In addition, they found a small companion star only 84 astronomical units away from the main object. The results show for the first time that even small, brown dwarf stars can produce collimated jets, and show the importance of these jets in the early life of a star.

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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:05 pm

Native wrote:@ Lloyd,
You asked:
Question for anyone: Isn't the Milky Way galactic core unusually small for a spiral galaxy?
I use to determine galaxies in 2 basical types:
1) Spiral galaxies with tight spundled arms and a very luminous center indicating an inwards turning motion, gathering gases and particles into a broader center.
2) Barred galaxies (as ours) with open spundled arms and a lesser luminous center indicating an outwards turning motion, thus emptying the center which gives a visible luminous smaller core.
I can't find the definition of "spundled". Does it mean wound, bound, or spun? This is about the clearest image I find of the Milky Way:
Image
From such images, I'm skeptical if they're certain what shape our galaxy has. Scientists a hundred years ago thought the Sun was the center of the galaxy and I'm not sure they were wrong, but this image shows ions streaming out of an area of the galaxy, seemingly the center, but I don't understand why the two jets of ions are strongly slanted to the right. Do you? They should be 180 degrees apart, but they're close to 90 degrees. The caption says this.
"Monster" outflows of charged particles from the centre of our Galaxy, stretching more than halfway across the sky, have been detected and mapped with CSIRO's 64-m Parkes radio telescope. Corresponding to the "Fermi Bubbles" found in 2010, the outflows were detected by astronomers from Australia, the USA, Italy and The Netherlands.

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Re: Solar Electron Plumes

Unread post by Native » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:07 am

@ Lloyd,
In order to keep the Solar Electric Plume tread, I´ll answer you here:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 10&t=14903
Life makes senses and who could doubt it, if you have no doubt about it. - "Grooks" by Piet Hein - My fellow Danish countryman and also a Natural Philosopher

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