Are the planets growing?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby MosaicDave » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:35 am

This reminds me of a Really Good Question that my nine-year-old son asked me a while ago:

"Papa, Teacher Nick [his fourth-grade teacher] says that matter can't be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another. But if that's true, then where did it all come from?"

:)

--dc
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby Sparky » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:56 am

Do we need to know? :?

By day I praised you
and never knew it.
By night I stayed with you
and never knew it.
I always thought that
I was me--but no,
I was you
and never knew it.

http://www.rumi.net/rumi_poems_main.htm
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby allynh » Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:42 am

KHAAAANNN!!!!! He vexes me. HA!

Sparky, the video that you linked to is number 45 in the playlist.

Cosmology and Astronomy
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL2186CFB2CE12A8B5

Khan Academy is great for Consensus Science: Big Bang, Black Holes, Quasars, etc.... I would love to see the Team take this playlist and create there own videos rebutting each lesson set.

BTW, Over the next 10 to 20 years you will see Khan totally redo these videos until they reflect EU and GET, because we will rule!

The main use of Khan Academy is for people to get up to speed on math. I need to start at the beginning and work my way back up to Calculus and Linear Algebra again. I have never been able to understand Differential Equations. I took the class twice, and could not see what they were doing. HA!
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby Sparky » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:38 pm

I need to start at the beginning and work my way back up to Calculus and Linear Algebra again.


I keep thinking of doing that, but there is always a tv series that I've not seen, "Deadwood", or a new yourtube kitten and puppies... :D
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby moss » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:07 am

After dutifully perusing every post in this thread at least twice, and following every link at least once, I feel that I've earned the right to come in and add my unschooled opinion, and BAM! The average IQ of this place just dropped 20 points. Sorry, folks; cannot be helped -- I vociferously support GET 3.0 and am convinced that this subject, (together with astrobiology) moderated as it is by an Electric Universe paradigm, is the most provocative and consequential subject in modern science.

I've also read much of the scientific rebuttals to a growing earth, as well as the traditional literature on Plate Tectonics. Strange, but after all is said and done, I'm still mystified by the same question that brought me here in the first place : "What happened to Panthalassa?"

My compliments to allynh, florian, krackonis, aardwolf, anaconda, sparky, and all the rest who work to keep the subject alive and on the table and open to new recruits.

Also, as I don't wish to arrive empty-handed, I'd like to offer this nugget from June of this year, regarding a possible source for new ocean water, right under our feet:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... tal-sponge
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby allynh » Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:56 am

Hi, moss. Good to see another person paying attention.
moss wrote:"What happened to Panthalassa?"

Exactly. HA!

When you get the chance, go to the Neal Adams page.

http://www.nealadams.com/index.php/science

On the top right you will see the gif of the Earth growing and shrinking. Right click and save that gif. Look at that gif whenever someone asks about Panthalassa.

Plus, this is the video showing how things would look if Pangea/Panthalassa ever existed.

Neal Adams - Science: 10 - Proof Positive! Earth Grows!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1oza6jybOA

It was never there. HA!

This is the article you linked to.

Deep Underground, Oceans Of Water May Be Trapped In A Crystal 'Sponge'
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... tal-sponge
Science teachers may have to add a whole new layer to the water cycle.

Scientists have discovered evidence of a vast reservoir of water hiding up to 400 miles beneath the surface.

The discovery could transform our understanding of how the planet was formed, suggesting that Earth's water may have come from within, rather than from collisions with large, icy comets.

The water is trapped in a blue mineral called ringwoodite that sits in the mantle, a hot, rocky layer between the Earth's crust and outer core. That means the water is not the familiar liquid, vapor or ice, but a fourth, mineral form. We reported earlier this year on a rare diamond containing a microscopic piece of ringwoodite that bolstered evidence for the vast wet zone.

It is likely the largest reservoir of water on the planet, and could be the source of the oceans' liquid. The study was published in the journal Science.

The study is also remarkable for the discovery that melting and movement of rock occurs in a layer of the mantle known as the transition zone, between the upper and lower mantles, the Guardian reports. Most melting was thought to occur at much shallower depths.

"Geological processes on the Earth's surface, such as earthquakes or erupting volcanoes, are an expression of what is going on inside the Earth, out of our sight," said Geophysicist Steve Jacobsen from Northwestern University, co-author of the study.

"I think we are finally seeing evidence for a whole-Earth water cycle, which may help explain the vast amount of liquid water on the surface of our habitable planet. Scientists have been looking for this missing deep water for decades," he said.

The study relied on seismometers across the U.S. and lab experiments simulating rocks under high pressure, says Nature World News.

"Ringwoodite here is key," it notes. "Its crystal-like structure makes it act like a sponge and draw in hydrogen and trap water."

It could be a vast amount of water, says the Guardian. "If just 1 percent of the weight of mantle rock located in the transition zone was water it would be equivalent to nearly three times the amount of water in our oceans, Jacobsen said."
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby moonkoon » Mon Oct 27, 2014 3:43 pm

theguardian.com, Monday 27 October 2014 08.16 GM
Australian Associated Press

A TINY piece of ancient Australia has been found under Vanuatu, raising new questions about how continents are made.

GEOLOGISTS thought the volcanic Vanuatu islands, about 2200km east of Townsville, were isolated from continental influences.

But a James Cook University Research team believes Vanuatu's geological basement contains ancient material from northern Australia. ...

... "Just because island chains or land masses may be far removed from each other today, doesn't mean that they always were. This calls for a rethink of how we calculate the rates and processes of generating new crust on Earth," he said.

The fragment of Australian crust now under Vanuatu is thought to have separated from the mainland prior to the Cenozoic Era, around 100 million years ago.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/o ... -australia
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby moss » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:42 pm

Not sure how technically accurate this gif is- but I am certain it needs to be accompanied by the theme song
from Benny Hill. Or, "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World." Pay particular attention to the red - India really deserves some frequent flyer miles!

Image
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby Sparky » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:22 am

India really deserves some frequent flyer miles!
:?

What do you imply? Do you have a logical argument, from evidence shown? ;)
"It is dangerous to be right in matters where established men are wrong."
"Doubt is not an agreeable condition, but certainty is an absurd one."
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby allynh » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:04 am

Oh, this is fun. HA!

The “Potsdam Gravity Potato” Shows Variations in Earth’s Gravity
http://www.universetoday.com/116801/the ... ariations/
geoid2011 copy.jpg

The Geoid 2011 model, based on data from LAGEOS, GRACE, GOCE and surface data. Credit: GFZ
The Earth’s gravitational model (aka the “Potsdam Potato”) is based on data from the LAGEOS, GRACE, and GOCE satellites and surface data. Credit: GFZ


People tend to think of gravity here on Earth as a uniform and consistent thing. Stand anywhere on the globe, at any time of year, and you’ll feel the same downward pull of a single G. But in fact, Earth’s gravitational field is subject to variations that occur over time. This is due to a combination of factors, such as the uneven distributions of mass in the oceans, continents, and deep interior, as well as climate-related variables like the water balance of continents, and the melting or growing of glaciers.

And now, for the first time ever, these variations have been captured in the image known as the “Potsdam Gravity Potato” – a visualization of the Earth’s gravity field model produced by the German Research Center for Geophysics’ (GFZ) Helmholtz’s Center in Potsdam, Germany.

And as you can see from the image above, it bears a striking resemblance to a potato. But what is more striking is the fact that through these models, the Earth’s gravitational field is depicted not as a solid body, but as a dynamic surface that varies over time.This new gravity field model (which is designated EIGEN-6C) was made using measurements obtained from the LAGEOS, GRACE, and GOCE satellites, as well as ground-based gravity measurements and data from the satellite altimetry.
geoid2005 copy.jpg

The Geoid 2005 model, which was based on data of two satellites (CHAMP and GRACE) plus surface data. Credit: GFZ
The 2005 model, which was based on data from the CHAMP and GRACE satellites and surface data, was less refined than the latest one. Credit: GFZ


Compared to the previous model obtained in 2005 (shown above), EIGEN-6C has a fourfold increase in spatial resolution.

“Of particular importance is the inclusion of measurements from the satellite GOCE, from which the GFZ did its own calculation of the gravitational field,” says Dr. Christoph Foerste who directs the gravity field work group at GFZ along with Dr. Frank Flechtner.


The ESA mission GOCE (Gravity Field and Steady-State Ocean Circulation Explorer) was launched in mid-March 2009 and has since been measuring the Earth’s gravitational field using satellite gradiometry – the study and measurement of variations in the acceleration due to gravity.

“This allows the measurement of gravity in inaccessible regions with unprecedented accuracy, for example in Central Africa and the Himalayas,” said Dr. Flechtner. In addition, the GOCE satellites offers advantages when it comes to measuring the oceans.

Within the many open spaces that lie under the sea, the Earth’s gravity field shows variations. GOCE is able to better map these, as well as deviations in the ocean’s surface – a factor known as “dynamic ocean topography” – which is a result of Earth’s gravity affecting the ocean’s surface equilibrium.
geoid_grace-e1417210814429.jpg

Twin-satellites GRACE with the earth's gravity field (vertically enhanceded) calculated from CHAMP data. Credit: GFZ
Twin-satellites GRACE with the earth’s gravity field (vertically enhanced) calculated from CHAMP data. Credit: GFZ


Long-term measurement data from the GFZ’s twin-satellite mission GRACE (Gravity Recovery And Climate Experiment) were also included in the model. By monitoring climate-based variables like the melting of large glaciers in the polar regions and the amount of seasonal water stored in large river systems, GRACE was able to determine the influence of large-scale temporal changes on the gravitational field.

Given the temporal nature of climate-related processes – not to mention the role played by Climate Change – ongoing missions are needed to see how they effect our planet long-term. Especially since the GRACE mission is scheduled to end in 2015.

In total, some 800 million observations went into the computation of the final model which is composed of more than 75,000 parameters representing the global gravitational field. The GOCE satellite alone made 27,000 orbits during its period of service (between March 2009 and November 2013) in order to collect data on the variations in the Earth’s gravitational field.

The final result achieved centimeter accuracy, and can serve as a global reference for sea levels and heights. Beyond the “gravity community,” the research has also piqued the interest of researchers in aerospace engineering, atmospheric sciences, and space debris.

But above all else, it offers scientists a way of imaging the world that is different from, but still complimentary to, approaches based on light, magnetism, and seismic waves. And it could be used for everything from determining the speed of ocean currents from space, monitoring rising sea levels and melting ice sheets, to uncovering hidden features of continental geology and even peeking at the convection force driving plate tectonics.

Further Reading: GFZ


About Matt Williams

Author, freelance writer, educator, Taekwon-Do instructor, and loving hubby, son and Island boy!

Geoid: The Potsdam Gravity Potato
http://www.gfz-potsdam.de/en/media-comm ... ty-potato/
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby allynh » Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:30 am

The diagram says it all. HA!

Meet Dreadnoughtus, The 'Astoundingly Huge' Dinosaur Discovered In Argentina
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/0 ... 53058.html
Posted: 09/04/2014 8:30 am EDT Updated: 09/05/2014 4:59 pm EDT

A US-Argentinian team led by Drexel University's Kenneth Lacovara, PhD, excavated the skeleton of Dreadnoughtus schrani from southern Patagonia over four field seasons from 2005 through 2009. The completeness and articulated nature of the two skeletons they found are evidence that these individuals were buried in sediments rapidly before their bodies fully decomposed.
Say hello to Dreadnoughtus schrani, a newly discovered dinosaur that was so formidable, it was named after a battleship that prowled the seas during the early 20th century.

"It is by far the best example we have of any of the most giant creatures to ever walk the planet," Dr. Kenneth Lacovara, a paleontologist at Drexel University's College of Arts and Sciences and the scientist who discovered the skeleton, said in a written statement. "With a body the size of a house, the weight of a herd of elephants, and a weaponized tail, Dreadnoughtus would have feared nothing."

The titanosaur's skeleton, which dates back 77 million years, was discovered in Southern Patagonia in Argentina, and unearthed over the course of four digs between 2005 and 2009.

dreadnoughtus illustrationRendering of the massive Dreadnoughtus schrani.

At 85 feet long and weighing 65 tons, Dreadnoughtus sets a new record as the land animal with the greatest calculable weight. (The record was previously held by Elaltitan, who weighed 47 tons.) That means that as an herbivore, Dreadnoughtus would have had to consume copious amounts of plant matter every day to become so "astoundingly huge," according to Lacovara.

"Imagine a life-long obsession with eating," he said, "Every day is about taking in enough calories to nourish this house-sized body."
size.jpg

dreadnoughtus size chartDreadnoughtus schrani was substantially more massive than any other supermassive dinosaur for which mass can be accurately calculated.

The skeleton is also the most complete of its kind, comprising 43.5 percent of the dinosaur's bones. It contains nearly all bones from the forelimbs and hind limbs, most of the tail vertebrae and numerous ribs.

Lacovara and his colleagues have digitally scanned the dinosaur's bones and constructed a "virtual mount" of the skeleton. The scientists hope their research on Dreadnoughtus will shed new light on the anatomy of supermassive dinosaurs, and how they walked and grew.

dreadnoughtus tailDr. Kenneth Lacovara with the 30-foot tail of Dreadnoughtus schrani, stretching along the length of the wall and around the corner in his lab.

The research was published online today in the journal Scientific Reports.
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby ranmacar » Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:54 pm

So, what's the status on Dinosaurs?

1. Lower gravity
2. Thicker atmosphere
3. Aquatic in shallow seas
4. Any/all from above :)

I am evaluating the growing volume/losing mass version, as it's most straight forward mechanically (no new mass, just heavy core elements splitting up).
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby allynh » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:56 pm

Here's another fun article.

Ancient underwater forest discovered off Norfolk coast
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-30905267
forest.jpg

Media caption BBC Inside Out reveals the discovery of a remarkable submerged forest thousands of years old underneath the sea off eastern England

26 January 2015 Last updated at 00:28 GMT

Nature experts have discovered a remarkable submerged forest thousands of years old under the sea close to the Norfolk coast.

The trees were part of an area known as 'Doggerland' which formed part of a much bigger area before it was flooded by the North Sea.

It was once so vast that hunter-gatherers who lived in the vicinity could have walked to Germany across its land mass.

The underwater forest was discovered by Dawn Watson and Rob Spray from Sea Search on a diving trip to study marine life.

The prehistoric forest lay undiscovered until it was exposed by the extreme storms along the east of England coast in December 2013.

BBC Inside Out's David Whiteley reveals exclusive underwater footage of the submerged forest which experts believe could date back more than 10,000 years.

Credit: The underwater diving footage is copyright and courtesy of Rob Spray and Dawn Watson.

Inside Out is on BBC One East on Monday, 26 January at 19:30 GMT and nationwide on the iPlayer for 30 days thereafter.
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby allynh » Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:11 pm

Another dinosaur that is impossible at 1g. HA!

New Dinosaur Species Discovered In China Takes Long Necks To A Whole New Level
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/2 ... 70668.html
A new dinosaur species discovered in China is being called "extreme"--and for good reason. The dino's neck is so long that it makes up more than half of the creature's huge 49-foot-long body.
Dino.jpg

The dinosaur--dubbed Qijianglong guokr, or "dragon of Qijiang"--is believed to have roamed Asia about 160 million years ago in the Late Jurassic Period. It was identified by skull and vertebrae fossils unearthed in 2006 by construction workers near Quiang City in the southern part of the country.

Artist's conception of Qijianglong being chased by two carnivorous dinosaurs in southern China 160 million years ago.

"If you imagine a big animal that is half neck, you can see that evolution can do quite extraordinary things," Tetsuto Miyashita, a Ph.D. student at the University of Alberta in Canada and a member of the team of scientists who identified the dinosaur, said in a written statement. “Qijianglong shows that long-necked dinosaurs diversified in unique ways in Asia during Jurassic times—something very special was going on in that continent."

Qijianglong is believed to belong to mamenchisauridae, a family of dinosaurs known for extremely long necks. But unlike most mamenchisaurids, Qijianglong had vertebrae that were hollow and so tightly linked that the dinosaur's neck is believed to have been stiff like a construction crane.

A paper describing the newly identified dinosaur was published online in the Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology on Jan. 26, 2015.
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Re: Are the planets growing?

Unread postby moonkoon » Tue Mar 24, 2015 4:10 am

There has been some discussion on this thread about the possibility that obduction (as opposed to subduction) may be the mechanism that creates Benioff zones (the regions where oceanic crust is currently thought to be sinking into the mantle under its own weight). Some expansion theorists suggest that these Benioff zones are the result of obduction, i.e. less dense continental crust* margins overthrusting the more dense oceanic crust. The overthrusting itself being the result of settling of the crust to fit the flatter curvature of the inflated earth.

However tectonics advocates have now suggested that obduction may have been responsible for initiating the tectonic process itself. The article quoted below puts forward the idea that spreading lumps of continental crust that had recently emerged from the mantle actually initated the whole tectonic subduction shebang.

... three to four billion years ago, "... the driving engine for plate tectonics didn't exist," said Professor Rey said.

"Instead, thick and buoyant early continents erupted in the middle of immobile plates. Our modelling shows that these early continents could have placed major stress on the surrounding plates. Because they were buoyant they spread horizontally, forcing adjacent plates to be pushed under at their edges." ...


These erupting blobs of continental crust in the tectonic model contrast with a more or less contiguous layer of silicon rich crust covering the original, pre-expansion, smaller diameter earth in the inflation model.

* There may be some instances of oceanic crust overriding other oceanic crust. Curvature adjustment driven obduction could also explain these occurrences, perhaps. :-)
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