Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:48 pm

Terrific map, thanks comingfrom. I really like that map.

I know here in the US the linguists simplify the [native] languages into a dozen or so families. But that does not mean speakers in a family of languages can understand one another. There are also "isolates," unrelated to any other.

ref:http://www.cogsci.indiana.edu/farg/rehl ... /ling.html

I have never looked into the developments you mentioned in native Australian tribes.** I find some of the native adages to be very charming and wise.


**(Unless you count Phoenicians in Australia! (: )
http://phoenicia.org/australia.html
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:36 pm

I am not sure how to bring the earlier conversation about pre-classical history to a conclusion.

I was able to bring up just a few of the major flaws in the use of Greek and Roman sources. Grey Cloud disagrees in one sentence responses. It tallies up to about 12 or 13 interesting themes on what is an already very long thread.

It seems to be fine the way it is! T.y.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Grey Cloud
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:40 pm

Brigit Bara wrote:I am not sure how to bring the earlier conversation about pre-classical history to a conclusion.

I was able to bring up just a few of the major flaws in the use of Greek and Roman sources. Grey Cloud disagrees in one sentence responses. It tallies up to about 12 or 13 interesting themes on what is an already very long thread.

It seems to be fine the way it is! T.y.
I've never written a one sentence response in my life.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

Lloyd
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun May 01, 2016 7:12 am

Grey Cloud, do you have any comments on the article, Slaughter at the bridge: Uncovering a colossal Bronze Age battle, at http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/ ... age-battle? If so, would you like to mention it at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 20#p113220?

Grey Cloud
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Thu May 12, 2016 3:12 pm

One for Brigit's trading theories:
3600-year-old Swedish Axes Were Made With Copper From Cyprus
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.719125
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Mon May 30, 2016 4:23 pm

Grey Cloud says, "I've never written a one sentence response in my life."

Oh yes you do.

Don't make me go back and find three examples, Grey Cloud.

Wait a minute, WAIT A MINUTE...

(:
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Brigit Bara
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Brigit Bara » Mon May 30, 2016 4:46 pm

by Grey Cloud » Thu May 12, 2016 3:12 pm


3600-year-old Swedish Axes Were Made With Copper From Cyprus
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.719125
From the link
Bronze tools found in Sweden dating from 3,600 years ago were made using copper from the Mediterranean, archaeologists have shown. They now also believe that rock carvings of ships found in Bohuslän, Sweden were visual documentation of trade between ancient Scandinavia and the Mediterranean.
&
Vast quantities of ingots have been found in Cyprus, Sardinia, mainland Greece and Crete. The biggest collection was found in the "Uluburun shipwreck," that sank in the late 14th century BCE off Turkey. Underwater excavation shows that the ship carried 10 tons of ingots, all of which seem to have originated in Cyprus.
Yes that is what I was "on about." Trade routes and sea lanes were extensive in the pre-classical world. These were often smaller, more versatile and more law-based societies-- or heroic societies-- as opposed to the monumental, conquering societies such as Sumer, Assyria, Babylon, Greece and Rome. These heroic societies were wide spread and made many startling advancements within their local economies, pushing the history of metal working, drainage, and trade much further back. These were destroyed by invading empires and their histories and accomplishments were erased.

I am not sure about the use of the petroglyphs to make the case for ships. Example:
Image

I would like to see more of the petroglyphs in the area to understand the context and themes. Why the bright red paint. And what is up with the kangaroo in the lower third of the picture?! (:
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Grey Cloud
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Thu Jun 02, 2016 2:58 pm

Sorry if I've posted this previously but it's well worth the repost.

http://cosmictusk.com/wp-content/upload ... nomaly.pdf

Excellent 12-page paper on aspects of the MBA collapse.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

moses
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by moses » Thu Jun 02, 2016 9:21 pm

Hi Grey Cloud,
I think that the tree ring studies must be correct for around 2350BC. This is terrific, and would be enormous if the ice core data could be matched to the tree ring data. They are probably looking for connections in totally the wrong depth in the ice. Yet the connection must be there for all to see, but still not see it.

Of course I see Velikovsky where others see a metorite. Again the ice core data could work this out through detail once the basic connections are made to the tree ring data. I am pretty thrilled to get a good timeline, as there is so much more one can posit is true because it fits the timeline.

It is a good article,
Cheers,
Mo

Grey Cloud
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Fri Jun 03, 2016 2:28 am

Hi Moses,
Glad you enjoyed it.
I'm even more skeptical than you about ice-cores.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

moses
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by moses » Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:17 pm

Given the flood at 23,50BC then the bible starts to look like a reliable source of history and the timeline given by Ussher could be very real:

https://creation.com/images/pdfs/other/ ... _bible.pdf

The Exodus looks likely to have produced a signature in the ice core records. And a signature is found at about 1600BC which is the same as the Ussher date for the Exodus. So all we need is a signature at 23,500BC in the ice cores, and then we will be laughing. I have found little yet.
Cheers,
Mo

moses
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by moses » Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:57 pm

The ice core dates seem reasonable to me. Maybe not, but could there have been a cataclysm on Earth that did not get recorded in the ice cores. Well Noah's flood had lots of rain. Could this have been world-wide rain, because this might have cleaned the air enough for the dust not to reach the polar regions, or travel very far at all really.

What could produce a huge increase in water moving into the atmosphere. I guess it was either a near-by planet with water which gets transported to Earth, or else vortex movement of sea water into the sky. If the latter was true then we might expect there to be more ice deposited at the poles.

More thinking required!
Cheers,
Mo

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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by moses » Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:08 pm

Just have to add that an electrical exchange between probably Venus and Earth might have had a more local effect rather than a world-wide effect. Then we could have a big bolt of lightning removing material from Earth, or possibly depositing material on to Earth. Along with this maybe there was widespread smaller lightning of severe intensity that also attempted to remove material, however if this material was water then we would get widespread spurts of water probably as vortexes, widespread, but local to one part of Earth.

So there would be a huge amount of rain locally. Perhaps this local area moved across the Earth as the Earth rotated, but it is difficult to see this lasting for days. But big local rain may not have left an impression on the ice core samples. Venus passing Earth could have caused electrical interaction for a few days, or maybe just a day. If it was the last electrical interaction then one would think that Venus would have been quite a distance from Earth, and it was the cone-shaped magnetosphere of Venus that was interacting with Earth.

Just getting my thoughts down,
Cheers,
Mo

Grey Cloud
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread post by Grey Cloud » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:06 am

The strong visual component of Homeric similes stems mainly from lyric traditions that are still evident in later poetry, especially in the choral songs of Pindar and in the sympotic poetry of Theognis (Martin 1997: 153–66). A most vivid example is a simile that visualizes the Achaeans at a moment of defeat in battle in the Iliad by comparing
them to a blighted population suffering from the conflagration caused by a thunderstorm (17.735–9). The wording in this simile is evidently cognate with the wording that describes a cosmic flood caused by Zeus in a song of Pindar (Olympian 9.49–53; Martin 1997: 160–61). In general, the Iliad is pervaded by similes centering on the complementary themes of cosmic flood and cosmic conflagration, that is, of cataclysm and ecpyrosis respectively, and these themes are initiated by what is called the Will of Zeus at the beginning of the Iliad (1.5): ecpyrosis applies to both the Trojans and the Achaeans, while cataclysm applies only to the Achaeans (EH [= Nagy 2005] §§63–4; PR [= Nagy 2002] 66). In the Iliad, the fire of the Achaeans menacing the Trojans and, conversely, the fire of
the Trojans menacing the Achaeans are both pervasively compared to a cosmic conflagration expressing the menis ¯ ‘anger’ of Zeus (BA 20§§13–20; Muellner 1996). Similarly, when it is foretold that the rivers of the Trojan plain will erase all traces of the Achaean Wall at Troy, the flooding of the plain is described in language that evokes a cosmic cataclysm (Iliad 12.17–33; EH §64).
Cambridge Companion to Greek Mythology (2007), p61-2
Again, a number of parallels to the song can be found in Greek, more specifically Hesiodic, mythological tradition, in which the serpent monster Typhoeus rises up against Zeus after the latter’s defeat of the Titans and tries to seize his throne from him. Closer still is the parallel between Ullikummi and Typhoeus/Typhon preserved in a later Greek tradition in which Typhon like Ullikummi grows to such a towering height that he reaches the heavens.24 And most significantly the Teshub–Ullikummi and Zeus–Typhon conflicts are fought out in the same location, Mt Hazzi/Kasios on the coast of northern Syria.
Taken from Trevor Bryce. Life and Society in the Hittite World. 2002. p227
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.

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