Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

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So, have we all quite finished riding rough-shod over my thread now?

[Grey Cloud]

I've just finished reading Cicero's 'On The Nature Of The Gods' and came across this little snippet:

V. Their existence no one denies. Cleanthes, one of our sect, imputes the way in which the idea of the Gods is implanted in the minds of men to four causes. The first is that which I just now mentioned - the foreknowledge of future things. The second is the great advantages which we enjoy from the temperature of the air, the fertility of the earth, and the abundance of various benefits of other kinds. The third cause is deduced from the terror with which the mind is affected by thunder, tempests, storms, snow, hail, devastation, pestilence,
earthquakes often attended with hideous noises, showers of stones, and rain like drops of blood; by rocks and sudden openings of the earth; by monstrous births of men and beasts; by meteors in the air, and blazing stars, by the Greeks called 'cometae,' by us crinitoe, the appearance of which, in the late Octavian war, were foreboders of great calamities; by two suns, which, as I have heard my father say, happened in the consulate of Tuditanus and Aquillius, and in which year also another sun (P. Africanus) was extinguished. These things terrified mankind, and raised in them a firm belief of the existence of some celestial and divine power.
http://thriceholy.net/Texts/Cicero2.html

Aquillius Died 88BCE.
Octavian war 32-30BCE

[bboyer]

So, have we all quite finished riding rough-shod over my thread now?

Yes, quite. But I leave you with this ...

Rough-Shod Horses.

To the Editor of The New York Times:
If owners would have their horses roughshod and thus enable them to get sure foothold on a slippery surface, both horse and man would benefit considerably.
New York, Jan. 19, 1909,
Harry Lee

The New York Times
published January 21, 1909


http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 946897D6CF

[Grey Cloud]

Gods = planets debate.
I'm currently reading Eusebius' Preparation and came across the following from Porphyry [c.234-305CE] as quoted by Eusebius:

[PORPHYRY] 'And the power of the whole air is Hera, called by a name derived from the air: but the symbol of the sublunar air which is affected by light and darkness is Leto; for she is oblivion caused by the insensibility in sleep, and because souls begotten below the moon are accompanied by forgetfulness of the Divine; and on this account she is also the mother of Apollo and Artemis, who are the sources of light for the night.
...
'The ruling principle of the power of earth is called Hestia, of whom a statue representing her as a virgin is usually set up on the hearth; but inasmuch as the power is productive, they symbolize her by the form of a woman with prominent breasts. The name Rhea they gave to the power of rocky and mountainous land, and Demeter to that of level and productive land. Demeter in other respects is the same as Rhea, but differs in the fact that she gives birth to Koré by Zeus, that is, she produces the shoot (κόρος) from the seeds of plants. And on this
account her statue is crowned with ears of corn, and poppies are set round her as a symbol of productiveness.'
...
'But since there was in the seeds cast into the earth a certain power, which the sun in passing round to the lower hemisphere drags down at the time of the winter solstice, Koré is the seminal power, and Pluto the sun passing under the earth, and traversing the unseen world at the time of the winter solstice; and he is said to carry off Koré, who, while hidden beneath the earth, is lamented by her mother Demeter.
'The power which produces hard-shelled fruits, and the fruits of plants in general, is named Dionysus. But observe the images of these also. For Koré bears symbols of the production of the plants which grow above the earth in the crops: and Dionysus has horns in common with Koré, and is of female form, indicating the union of male and female forces in the generation of the hard-shelled fruits.
'But Pluto, the ravisher of Koré, has a helmet as a symbol of the unseen pole, and his shortened sceptre as an emblem of his kingdom of the nether world; and his dog (κύων) indicates the generation (κύησιν) of the fruits in its threefold division----the sowing of the seed, its reception by the earth, its growing up. For he is called a dog (κύων), not because souls are his food (κῆρας βοράν, Cerberus), but because of the earth's fertility (κυεῖν), for which Pluto provides when he carries off Koré.
'Attis, too, and Adonis are related to the analogy of fruits. Attis is the symbol of the blossoms which appear early in the spring, and fall off before the complete fertilization; whence they further attributed castration to him, from the fruits not having attained to seminal perfection: but Adonis was the symbol of the cutting of the perfect fruits.
...
'Since there was also a power partaking of the prophetic faculty, the power is called Themis, because of its telling what is appointed (τεθειμένα) and fixed for each person.
...
'In all these ways, then, the power of the earth finds an interpretation and is worshipped: as a virgin and Hestia, she holds the centre; as a mother she nourishes; as Rhea she makes rocks and dwells on mountains; as Demeter, she produces herbage; and as Themis, she utters oracles: while the seminal law which descends into her bosom is figured as Priapus, the influence of which on dry crops is called Koré, and on soft fruits and shell-fruits is called Dionysus. For Koré was carried off by Pluto, that is, the sun going down beneath the earth at
seed-time; but Dionysus begins to sprout according to the conditions of the power which, while young, is hidden beneath the earth, yet produces fine fruits, and is an ally of the power in the blossom symbolized by Attis, and of the cutting of the ripened corn symbolized by Adonis.
'Also the power of the wind which pervades all things is formed into a figure of Silenus, and the perversion to frenzy into a figure of a Bacchante, as also the impulse which excites to lust is represented by the Satyrs. These, then, are the symbols by which the power of the earth is revealed.'
...
'The whole power productive of water they called Oceanus, and named its symbolic figure Tethys. But of the whole, the drinking-water produced is called Achelous; and the sea-water Poseidon; while again that which makes the sea, inasmuch as it is productive, is Amphitrite. Of the sweet waters the particular powers are called Nymphs, and those of the sea-waters Nereids.
'Again, the power of fire they called Hephaestus, and have made his image in the form of a man, but put on it a blue cap as a symbol of the revolution of the heavens, because the archetypal and purest form of fire is there. But the fire brought down from heaven to earth is less intense, and wants the strengthening and support which is found in matter: wherefore he is lame, as needing matter to support him.
'Also they supposed a power of this kind to belong to the sun and called it Apollo, from the pulsation (πάλσις) of his beams. There are also nine Muses singing to his lyre, which are the sublunar sphere, and seven spheres of the planets, and one of the fixed stars. And they
crowned him with laurel, partly because the plant is full of fire, and therefore hated by daemons; and partly because it crackles in burning, to represent the god's prophetic art.
'But inasmuch as the sun wards off the evils of the earth, they called him Heracles (Ἑρακλῆς), from his clashing against the air (κλᾶσθαι πρὸς τὸν ἀέρα) in passing from east to west. And they invented fables of his performing twelve labours, as the symbol of the division of the signs of the zodiac in heaven; and they arrayed him with a club and a lion's skin, the one as an indication of his uneven motion, and the other representative of his strength in "Leo" the sign of the zodiac.
'Of the sun's healing power Asclepius is the symbol, and to him they have given the staff as a sign of the support and rest of the sick, and the serpent is wound round it, as significant of his preservation of body and soul: for the animal is most full of spirit, and shuffles off the weakness of the body. It seems also to have a great faculty for healing: for it found the remedy for giving clear sight, and is said in a legend to know a certain plant which restores life.
'But the fiery power of his revolving and circling motion, whereby he ripens the crops, is called Dionysus, not in the same sense as the power which produces the juicy fruits, but either from the sun's rotation (δινεῖν), or from his completing (διανύειν) his orbit in the heaven. And whereas he revolves round the cosmical seasons (Spas), and is the maker of "times and tides," the sun is on this account called Horus.
'Of his power over agriculture, whereon depend the gifts of wealth (Plutus), the symbol is Pluto. He has, however, equally the power of destroying, on which account they make Sarapis share the temple of Pluto: and the purple tunic they make the symbol of the light that has
sunk beneath the earth, and the sceptre broken at the top that of his power below, and the posture of the hand the symbol of his departure into the unseen world.
'Cerberus is represented with three heads, because the positions of the sun above the earth are three----rising, midday, and setting.
'The moon, conceived according to her brightness, they called Artemis, as it were (ἀερότεμις), "cutting the air." And Artemis, though herself a virgin, presides over childbirth, because the power of the new moon is helpful to parturition.
'What Apollo is to the sun, that Athena is to the moon: for the moon is a symbol of wisdom, and so a kind of Athena.
'But, again, the moon is Hecate, the symbol of her varying phases and of her power dependent on the phases. Wherefore her power appears in three forms, having as symbol of the new moon the figure in the white robe and golden sandals, and torches lighted: the basket, which she bears when she has mounted high, is the symbol of the cultivation of the crops, which she makes to grow up according to the increase of her light: and again the symbol of the full moon is the goddess of the brazen sandals.
'Or even from the branch of olive one might infer her fiery nature, and from the poppy her productiveness, and the multitude of the souls who find an abode in her as in a city, for the poppy is an emblem of a city. She bears a bow, like Artemis, because of the sharpness of the
pangs of labour.
'And, again, the Fates are referred, to her powers, Clotho to the generative, and Lachesis to the nutritive, and Atropos to the inexorable will of the deity.
'Also, the power productive of corn-crops, which is Demeter, they associate with her, as producing power in her. The moon is also a supporter of Koré. They set Dionysus also beside her, both on account of their growth of horns, and because of the region of clouds lying
beneath the lower world.
'The power of Kronos they perceived to be sluggish and slow and cold, and therefore attributed to him the power of time (χρόνου): and they figure him standing, and grey-headed, to indicate that time is growing old.
'The Curetes, attending on Chronos, are symbols of the seasons, because time (Chronos) journeys on through seasons.
'Of the Hours, some are the Olympian, belonging to the sun, which also open the gates in the air: and others are earthly, belonging to Demeter, and hold a basket, one symbolic of the flowers of spring, and the other of the wheat-ears of summer.
'The power of Ares they perceived to be fiery, and represented it as causing war and bloodshed, and capable both of harm and benefit.
'The star of Aphrodite they observed as tending to fecundity, being the cause of desire and offspring, and represented it as a woman because of generation, and as beautiful, because it is also the evening star----
"Hesper, the fairest star that shines in heaven." 36

'And Eros they set by her because of desire. She veils her breasts and other parts, because their power is the source of generation and nourishment. She comes from the sea, a watery element, and warm, and in constant movement, and foaming because of its commotion, whereby they intimate the seminal power.
'Hermes is the representative of reason and speech, which both accomplish and interpret all things. The phallic Hermes represents vigour, but also indicates the generative law that pervades all things.
'Further, reason is composite: in the sun it is called Hermes; in the moon Hecate; and that which is in the All Hermopan, for the generative and creative reason extends over all things. Hermanubis also is composite, and as it were half Greek, being found among the Egyptians
also. Since speech is also connected with the power of love, Eros represents this power: wherefore Eros is represented as the son of Hermes, but as an infant, because of his sudden impulses of desire.
'They made Pan the symbol of the universe, and gave him his horns as symbols of sun and moon, and the fawn skin as emblem of the stars in heaven, or of the variety of the universe.'
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/euseb ... _book3.htm

As I've said before, mythology is somewhat more sophisticated and nuanced than the Saturn theorists make out.

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Prior to reading Eusebius' Preparation I read his Chronicle and in this latter work he gives dates for the floods of Ogygus and Deucalion. He arrives at his dates by using king lists and back-dating from the known date of the first Olympiad (776BCE).

The flood of Ogygus he gives as 1746 BCE and Deucalion as 1556 BCE. He also states that the 'devastation' associated with Phaeton took place in Ethiopia at the same time as the Deucalion flood.

Ogygus was king in Boeotia and Deucalion in Thessaly.

The eruption of Thera/Santorini took place c.1590 BCE (3,600 y.a.).
Thera, in the Cyclades, is quite a way from Boeotia.

A couple of other interesting dates he gives are the Fall of Troy (1183) and the 'invasion' of the Heraclidae (1103).

A biblical timeline based on the Septuagint gives 3239 as the date of Noah's flood and 1448 for the Exodus.

Just for the record I'm not saying any of these dates are set in stone. I'm just using them to play around with.

Any thoughts?

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Another snippet from Eusebius:

'But perhaps we ought also to mention the more silly legend. For it is said that when Hera was at variance with Zeus, and was no longer willing to consort with him, but hid herself, he was wandering about in perplexity and fell in with Alalcomenes the earth-born, and was taught
by him that, to deceive Hera, he must pretend to wed another wife. So Alalcomenes helped him, and they secretly cut down a tall and beautiful oak, and shaped it and dressed it in bridal array, and called it Daedale: then the hymeneal was duly chanted, and the nymphs of Triton
brought lustral water, and Boeotia supplied flutes and festal processions. But when these performances went on, Hera could bear it no longer, but came down from Cithaeron, followed by the women of Plataea, and from anger and jealousy came running up to Zeus, and when the counterfeit became manifest, she was reconciled to him and with joy and laughter herself led the bridal procession, and gave additional honour to the statue, and called the festival Daedala, and nevertheless from jealousy burnt the thing, lifeless though it was.

'Such then is the legend: and the explanation of it is as follows. The variance and quarrel of Hera and Zeus is nothing else than the distemper and confusion of the elements, when they no longer bear a due proportion to each other in the cosmos, but disproportion and roughness
arise, and they have a desperate fight and dissolve their connexion, and work the ruin of the universe.

If then Zeus, that is, the force of heat and fire, gives occasion to the variance, a drought overtakes the earth: but if it is on the part of Hera, that is, the element of rain and wind, that any outbreak or excess takes place, there comes a great flood, and deluges and
overflows everything. And as something of this kind occurred about those times, and Boeotia especially had been deeply flooded, as soon as ever the plain emerged and the flood abated, the order which followed from the tranquillity of the atmosphere was called the agreement and reconciliation of the deities. The first of the plants that sprang up out of the earth was the oak; and men welcomed this, because it gave a permanent supply of food and safety. For not only for the pious, as Hesiod says, but for all who survive the destruction,
'The top bears acorns, and the middle bees.' [Hesiod]
Eusebius quoting Plutarch
http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/euseb ... _book3.htm

Alalcomenes was a town in Boeotia.
Cithaeron was a mountain in Boeotia
Plataea was a town Boeotia

A couple of related(-ish) articles from today's news:
Comet smashes triggered ancient famine [536 CE]
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... amine.html
Catastrophic Coincidence: Second Ever Example Of Contemporaneous Meteorite Impact And Flood Volcanism Discovered [30 million y.a.]
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 085320.htm
Read the reader comment on the Newscientist story. Always a good indicator of the intellectual level the stories are aimed at.

[StefanR]

have we all quite finished riding rough-shod over my thread now?

Where shall we pay tribute, oh thou exhalted vaporishness?

Just for the record I'm not saying any of these dates are set in stone. I'm just using them to play around with.

Any thoughts?

Very difficult to pin down, in my opinion. Dates of events could be given, but will remain obscure because of lack of to many sources. If it where only for some library in Alexa....,wishful thinking .

Thanks for mentioning the Eusebian Porphyry qoutes, very nice. Indeed as you say, gods and mythology do seem to work on different levels of interpretation. It reminds me of a lecture I saw of P. Grimes about Heraclitus and his mentioning of Zeus.
More indicating a principle than a figure or object.

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Hi Stefan.
Nice to hear from you and without even mentioning Tinariwen (who are playing in Manchester in March ).

While I agree that dating events is problematic I do not think that it is impossible to at least get within a century or so, if not less for the more 'recent' episodes.
There are dates or at least time-frames given in various ancient texts from the Middle east, China and India for example. It should be possible to compare and correlate these. There is also physical evidence from geology, archaeology, dendrology, ice-cores etc.

You wrote:

...gods and mythology do seem to work on different levels of interpretation.

Amen to that. I came across this last night:

The Egyptians thought of manifestation as taking place in three main gradations of crystallization that they called "worlds." There was the celestial world or heaven, the domain or condition of being of the Neters, the inherent qualities in nature. The second sphere was the Duat or Dwat, intermediate between the celestial realm and our more tangible earth. It has been described as the "moment between night and day." It is the condition when causal forces are in transition from the abstract phase to the material aspects of nature. Because of this it is really a duality, representing the state of an entity's 'becoming' into and 'emerging' from different sets of qualities or levels of experience. The third world is the concreted, material globe. "It is the world of Ptah -- the innate fire of terrestrial matter -- who created it, who is its secret motive force and the agent of its future development" (Schwaller de Lubicz, p. 341).
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/wor ... y-imo5.htm

Recently I was reading something by a Sanskrit scholar who stated that the earliest Brahmanas did not mention gods but viewed the various characters or personalities as natural forces or phenomenon in a similar manner to the Egyptians. In other words, gods are a later development.
With regard to Eusebius, his Chronicle is a very interesting read. He adopts a scholarly approach and keeps the pagan-bashing to a minimum. The Preparation is more of an exercise in pagan-bashing aimed at (not very intelligent) prospective and recent converts to Christianity.

I'm awarding you an extra point for mentioning Pierre Grimes.

[bboyer]

The Egyptians thought of manifestation as taking place in three main gradations of crystallization that they called "worlds." There was the celestial world or heaven, the domain or condition of being of the Neters, the inherent qualities in nature. The second sphere was the Duat or Dwat, intermediate between the celestial realm and our more tangible earth. It has been described as the "moment between night and day." It is the condition when causal forces are in transition from the abstract phase to the material aspects of nature. Because of this it is really a duality, representing the state of an entity's 'becoming' into and 'emerging' from different sets of qualities or levels of experience. The third world is the concreted, material globe. "It is the world of Ptah -- the innate fire of terrestrial matter -- who created it, who is its secret motive force and the agent of its future development" (Schwaller de Lubicz, p. 341).
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/wor ... y-imo5.htm

Recently I was reading something by a Sanskrit scholar who stated that the earliest Brahmanas did not mention gods but viewed the various characters or personalities as natural forces or phenomenon in a similar manner to the Egyptians. In other words, gods are a later development.

Perhaps a tad more roughshod riding here, but I think this is directly experienced (or at least potentially and "personally" experienced with full awareness) as the vague twilight area between conscious (or focused) awareness and the drop off into dreamless sleep. And why I say that we ARE the very essence of "æther" (by any other name). And why a full description of "it" by the hallowed efforts of science, religion, any -ism or practice is beyond the pale of possibility. Unmistakably fun, but futile. But, of course, what else is there for misnomer-ed "gods" to do? Our symbols (sacred and otherwise) only point to aspects of our own true essential homogeneous being with all that be's. The misnomer-ed "Big Bang of creation" occurs each and every moment of awakening into the Now of what-is, focused consciousness of each and all - not unlike raindrop patterns on a puddle of water. Dang. I am such a bloody mystic.

[Grey Cloud]

Hi arc-us,
Yet another insightful and thought-provoking post regardless of your taste in footwear.
You wrote:

...I think this is directly experienced (or at least potentially and "personally" experienced with full awareness) as the vague twilight area between conscious (or focused) awareness and the drop off into dreamless sleep.

This is similar to what I experience. I tend to think of it as focused day-dreaming. After a reading seesion I sort of drift off into a day-dream but rather than just going off into 'cloud-cuckoo land' I am in the middle of the information I have just read plus other relevant information. This information then 'arranges' itself so I can 'see' how it fits together and why, and also what does not fit and why.
And:

And why I say that we ARE the very essence of "æther" (by any other name). And why a full description of "it" by the hallowed efforts of science, religion, any -ism or practice is beyond the pale of possibility. Unmistakably fun, but futile.

While I agree with the first sentence I would say that in our current state, as denizens of the physical realm, we are somehow currently 'inbetween'. In the physical realm (the world of maya) the Law of Three
applies: aether (potential, negative, female, yin, darkness etc), the physical world (actual, positive, male, yang, light, etc) with us providing the third element, i.e. it is us who are providing the link between the two opposites. Creative (aether), Creator (us) and Created
(world) if you will. (We are situated between Gaia and Ouranos? We are Zeus? We are Dionysos?).
I most certainly agree that it is fun but I tend to disagree that it is futile. I don't think it can be doen by anything as narrow or blinkered as either science or religion (which to me are two sides of the same coin) and perhaps it can't be done today or even tomorrow but I am
convinced that it is achievable. Cyclical time plays a part here.
And:

The misnomer-ed "Big Bang of creation" occurs each and every moment of awakening into the Now of what-is, focused consciousness of each and all - not unlike raindrop patterns on a puddle of water.

I think that part of our current problem is that we are not 'focused consciousness' but that due to our current state of ignorance (not to say arrogance) we are broadcasting our consciousness willy-nilly (similar to a broadcast storm on a computer network).

[bboyer]

Hi arc-us,

And why I say that we ARE the very essence of "æther" (by any other name). And why a full description of "it" by the hallowed efforts of science, religion, any -ism or practice is beyond the pale of possibility. Unmistakably fun, but futile.

While I agree with the first sentence I would say that in our current state, as denizens of the physical realm, we are somehow currently 'inbetween'. In the physical realm (the world of maya) the Law of Three
applies: aether (potential, negative, female, yin, darkness etc), the physical world (actual, positive, male, yang, light, etc) with us providing the third element, i.e. it is us who are providing the link between the two opposites. Creative (aether), Creator (us) and Created
(world) if you will. (We are situated between Gaia and Ouranos? We are Zeus? We are Dionysos?).
I most certainly agree that it is fun but I tend to disagree that it is futile. I don't think it can be doen by anything as narrow or blinkered as either science or religion (which to me are two sides of the same coin) and perhaps it can't be done today or even tomorrow but I am
convinced that it is achievable. Cyclical time plays a part here.

I think we're on the same wavelength with all this. What I was getting at with the futility point was that the attempt to describe it can only be that, symbolic description - a "pointing to," in the words of Siddartha Gautama - that some appear to be under the impression that this essence can somehow be captured by the methodology of symbolic description. When language and images can at best only serve as pointers to the ineffable reality of ... the non-personal dreamer "itself" ... which, in my view, can only be experienced; hence, any and all description will fall short of the actuality. I don't disagree with anything you've written here.

The misnomer-ed "Big Bang of creation" occurs each and every moment of awakening into the Now of what-is, focused consciousness of each and all - not unlike raindrop patterns on a puddle of water.

I think that part of our current problem is that we are not 'focused consciousness' but that due to our current state of ignorance (not to say arrogance) we are broadcasting our consciousness willy-nilly (similar to a broadcast storm on a computer network).

By "focused consciousness" I was attempting to describe (with inadequate written words) what I perceive as a difference between awareness and consciousness. Most probably wouldn't discriminate as such. I was drawing from the way Alan Watts described an analogy of two types of attention, 1) as a sort of "floodlight" awareness and 2) as a sort of focused "spotlight" awareness. I was extending the analogy to sort of (futilely ) describe an experience of birth-living-death as comparable to awaking-living-sleep. So, to me it seemed that when I go through this cycle of awaking from deep, dreamless sleep I go through this ... twilight zone ( ) ... where unfocused awareness gradually becomes focused into physical "being" (unity) once again. This posits a relationship where consciousness requires awareness, but that awareness does not require consciousness (as in the "little death" of nothingness in deep, dreamless sleep where one can be aware but not conscious - of course, there is nothing to recall, remember, or bring to "this side" of focused awareness [i.e. consciousness] because there is literally no-thing there to recall or remember. Hence, unless we "stir" and slightly focus as when we dream our personal dreams, but not quite awaken to the concensus dream of the "real world," when we do awaken to concensus reality there is nothing to recall. BUT and perhaps oddly enough, the essence of this ... emptiness-that-is-full i.e. pure, unconditional potential of being that we are when in deep dreamless sleep is actually always and entirely present within us even when awake in concensus reality.)

I'll gently retreat and go for re-shodding now.

[StefanR]

Nice to hear from you and without even mentioning Tinariwen (who are playing in Manchester in March ).

Well, thank you for mentioning that, you haven't made me envious at all ( then again Ballake Sissoko will be in amsterdam next month, so I will be going pentatonic )

While I agree that dating events is problematic I do not think that it is impossible to at least get within a century or so, if not less for the more 'recent' episodes.
There are dates or at least time-frames given in various ancient texts from the Middle east, China and India for example. It should be possible to compare and correlate these. There is also physical evidence from geology, archaeology, dendrology, ice-cores etc.

For sure, but then I would like to ask as what is ancient then, and who exactly should be called ancients? Is it our ancients or the ancients ancients? The most catastrophic, in my opinion, in the last 10.000 years is the coming out of the Ice-age in steps, that is the most impactful event that I have come across. Textual evidence is mostly concerned with that it seems.

In other words, gods are a later development.
With regard to Eusebius, his Chronicle is a very interesting read. He adopts a scholarly approach and keeps the pagan-bashing to a minimum. The Preparation is more of an exercise in pagan-bashing aimed at (not very intelligent) prospective and recent converts to Christianity.

Porphyry, the Christianity-basher.
Maybe the word god is more like a substitute for blubluh or somethingsomething. The name is not the thing. A god is not a principle, but a principle is a god.

I'm awarding you an extra point for mentioning Pierre Grimes.

Fantastic! That would make my grand total...**calculate calculate** ...more than one! At least I got a better grade than Aristotle

unlike raindrop patterns on a puddle of water. Dang. I am such a bloody mystic.

patterns and water..... Cymatics!
Do watch out for the Skekses and protect us, Gelflings, from them , oh mystic master.

This is similar to what I experience. I tend to think of it as focused day-dreaming. After a reading seesion I sort of drift off into a day-dream but rather than just going off into 'cloud-cuckoo land' I am in the middle of the information I have just read plus other relevant information. This information then 'arranges' itself so I can 'see' how it fits together and why, and also what does not fit and why.

You are talking about me, it seems. Personally, I think it's one of those things from where we get some inspiration... just as long as you don't notice that you are doing it. Because it then slowly seems to fade, the state wherein one was, that is. Sometimes it is good to have a tape recorder.

I think we're on the same wavelength with all this. What I was getting at with the futility point was that the attempt to describe it can only be that, symbolic description - a "pointing to," in the words of Siddartha Gautama - that some appear to be under the impression that this essence can somehow be captured by the methodology of symbolic description. When language and images can at best only serve as pointers to the ineffable reality of ... the non-personal dreamer "itself" ... which, in my view, can only be experienced; hence, any and all description will fall short of the actuality. I don't disagree with anything you've written here.

It seems my typing wasn't futile:

...music is not merely , as is imagined today, the art of combining tones or the talent for reproducing them in the way most pleasantto the ear; that is only its practical side from which result the ephemeral forms, more or less brilliant according to the time and place, the taste and whim of peoples, which make them vary in a thousand different ways. Music regarded in its speculative aspect is, as the Ancients defined it, the knowledge of the order of all things, the science of the harmonic relationships of the Universe, it rests on immovable principles which nothing can alter.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 294#p16294

Thanks guys, for the uplifting stuff.

[bboyer]

... the non-personal dreamer "itself" ...

It seems my typing wasn't futile:

...music is not merely , as is imagined today, the art of combining tones or the talent for reproducing them in the way most pleasantto the ear; that is only its practical side from which result the ephemeral forms, more or less brilliant according to the time and place, the taste and whim of peoples, which make them vary in a thousand different ways. Music regarded in its speculative aspect is, as the Ancients defined it, the knowledge of the order of all things, the science of the harmonic relationships of the Universe, it rests on immovable principles which nothing can alter.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 294#p16294

Thanks guys, for the uplifting stuff.

For any part I may have played, you are most welcome.

Roy Orbison - Beautiful Dreamer (1963) (while admittedly pleasing to the ear, also a "certain something else")

Beautiful dreamer, wake unto me,
Starlight and dewdrops are waiting for thee;
Sounds of the rude world, heard in the day,
Lull'd by the moonlight have all pass'd away!
Beautiful dreamer, queen of my song,
List while I woo thee with soft melody;
Gone are the cares of life's busy throng,
Beautiful dreamer, awake unto me!

Beautiful dreamer, awake unto me!
Beautiful dreamer, out on the sea Mermaids are chanting the wild lorelie;
Over the streamlet vapors are borne,
Waiting to fade at the bright coming morn.
Beautiful dreamer, beam on my heart,
E'en as the morn on the streamlet and sea;
Then will all clouds of sorrow depart,
Beautiful dreamer, awake unto me!
Beautiful dreamer, awake unto me!

-- Stephen C. Foster (1826-1864)

[seasmith]

arc-us

I think this is directly experienced (or at least potentially and "personally" experienced with full awareness) as the vague twilight area between conscious (or focused) awareness and the drop off into dreamless sleep. And why I say that we ARE the very essence of "æther" (by any other name). And why a full description of "it" by the hallowed efforts of science, religion, any -ism or practice is beyond the pale of possibility.

This is the distinction I was blathering on about back in one of those “what is consciousness” threads, but using the terms differently.

In sleep, i think, we sink in to a deep sea of diffuse ‘Consciousness’. There were are in resonance with the “principles” named by small mind as gods. (The term ‘subconscious’ is psychobabble for not a clue what’s going on.)
Then waking, passing through that delightfully nascent Hypnogogic state, the filtering lens of Ego insidiously permeates Consciousness and
automatically focuses our (communal) conscience as a directed beam of Awareness. Gods become deities…, etc.

One term is almost as good as the other, but perhaps not incidently, the A of Awareness depicts a headlight beam and the C (or sea) of Consciousness suggests the all-enCompassing big mind of transcendent Conscious-loch-ness.

tink i needa nap....

~s~

[bboyer]

My kind of blather, ~s~. I'm on the same page with all of that, any fine mincing of verb-i-age notwithstanding.

(With apologies to GC for not getting proper-shod yet and continuing to hi-jack his thread.)