Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Lloyd,
Cook's site doesn't 'apparently' say that, it definitely says it on the first page right above where the main text begins.

Although Cook's site seems to contain some Velikovskian ideas that others have since discarded, if you believe Cook's statement above is impossible, then you're on the wrong forum, because that's exactly what the team of authors who started this forum and website have discovered to be very probably true.

I am on this forum for a variety of reasons and none of them involve an uncritical acceptance of what anyone says. As far as I'm aware
Talbott's Saturn model is different from Cardona's so this in itself would seem to suggest that the evidence is not quite as clear-cut as the likes of yourself and Cook maintain.

They believe it for 2 reasons: 1. the ancients the world over said very clearly that that was the case and that the planet that was seen there stationary, but eventually rotating, for centuries, if not millennia, was Saturn, meaning Earth was a moon of Saturn; 2. the major force in the universe is the electrical force, rather than gravity, and that's why the Earth, Mars and Venus could have, and most probably were, aligned along Saturn's south polar axis during that time.

Reason 1: Show me where the ancients say 'very clearly that this was the case'.
Reason 2. Electricity may be a 'major force' in the universe but it is a non sequitur to suggest that it follows that the planets were aligned as you suggest.

Cardona, Talbott and other authors have also found that the descriptions the ancients left of events strongly suggest that the Saturn system originated outside the Solar System and slowly merged with it over centuries.

Again, where are these strongly supportive descriptions left by the ancients? I opened this thread two months ago but the ancient textual
evidence has not exactly flown in.

I have read God Star and was less than impressed with the standard of scholarship never mind the actual theory. See here:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... =15#p10555

[flyingcloud]

and I thought it may be a good resource for the relationship for the greek gods and their offspring never saw a family tree of greek gods and found it interesting and possibly pertinent to identifying other potential stories that may have been overlooked or too obscure to be included in most maistream mythology. sorry if it was not inspiring.

Hello Cloud brother,
Sorry if I was a tad dismissive of your post but family trees of Greek gods are not that rare. Family trees are not must use in any case, as there are usually varying accounts in the ancient sources as to who actually begat who. The wiki articel uses a mix of Greek and Latin names and doesn't give the meanings of the names. The meaning of the names is a major help.

A belated welcome and sorry for the delay in replying.

Thanks Grey Cloud, glad to be a part of the family.
appreciate the reply and the welcome. I find forgotten history quite intriguing.

[moses]

And yes, I have read all of Cook's site. Grey Cloud
You must be the greatest speed reader ever!
Mo

[Grey Cloud]

And yes, I have read all of Cook's site. Grey Cloud
You must be the greatest speed reader ever!
Mo

I may well be but I read the site months ago.

[Lloyd]

* You said: Show me where the ancients say 'very clearly that this was the case', [i.e. that the planets are gods]
* I don't know why you can't look it up yourself, but here are some examples.
http://www.varchive.org/itb/deif.htm
* The ancients were sufficiently enlightened to know that the planets are large rocks like the Earth that circle on orbits.(8) And this makes the modern scholars wonder: knowing that the planets are rocks, why did the ancients believe that they are gods?(9)
8. This was the teaching of Anaxagoras as reported by Diogenes Laertius, Lives of the Famous Philosophers, II. 8.
9. E. Pfeiffer, Gestirne und Wetter im griechischen Volksglauben (Leipzig, 1914), pp. 24f. [The deification of the planets is advocated in the Platonic Epinomis 471; cf. also Cicero, De Natura Deorum II. 21. 54-55.]
* In the Persian holy books it is said that “on the planets depends the existence or non-existence of the world—wherefore are they especially to be venerated.” (10) “The seven planets rule the universe,” says a Nabatean inscription.(11) The Greeks and Romans believed that “everything is, in fact, subject to the changes brought about by the revolutions of the stars.” (12)
10. Yasnav I. 307. See J. Scheftelowitz, Die Zeit als Schicksalgottheit in der indischen und iranischen Religion (Stuttgart, 1929), p. 2.
11. D. Chwolson, Die Ssabier und der Ssabismus (St. Petersburg, 1856), vol. II, pp. 604f.
12. Cumont, Astrology and Religion among the Greeks and Romans, pp. 113-114; [cf. M. P. Nilsson, “The Origin of Belief among the Greeks in the Divinity of the Heavenly Bodies,” Harvard Tr. Rel. 33 (1940), pp. 1ff. and idem, “Symbolisme astronomique et mystique dans certains cultes publics grecs,” Homages Bidez-Cumont (1949), pp. 217ff. Cf. also P. Boyance, “La religion astrale de Platon a Ciceron,” Revue des Etudes Grecques LXV (1952), pp. 312-350.]
* According to ancient Hebrew traditions, “there are seven archangels, each of whom is associated with a planet.” (13) “The seven archangels were believed to play an important part in the universal order through their associations with the planets. . . .” (14)
13. J. Trachtenberg, Jewish Magic and Superstition (New York, 1939), p. 98.
14. Ibid., p. 250.
* The reason for the deification of the planets lay in the fact that the planets only a short time ago were not faultlessly circling celestial bodies, nor were they harmless. This is also expressed in a Mandaean text: “How cruel are the planets that stay there and conspire evil in their rage . . . the planets conspire in rage against us.” (15)
15. M. Lidzbarski, “Ein mandaeischer Amulett,” Florilegium, pp. 350f.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_mythology
* The Sky deities
The name of the Gods in Sumerian {DINGIR} was written with the same cuneiform glyph used to represent the word "sky" {AN}, and indeed all the principal Mesopotamian Gods were identified with the sky. The movements of these bodies was considered linked to events on earth giving rise to the practice of astrology.

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/AstraPlaneta.html
* Plato, Cratylus 400d & 409c (trans. Lamb) (Greek philosopher C4th B.C.) :
"[Plato constructs philosophical etymologies for the names of the gods :]
Sokrates : Let us inquire what thought men had in giving them [the gods] their names . . . The first men who gave names [to the gods] were no ordinary persons, but high thinkers and great talkers . . . But why should you not tell of another kind of gods, such as sun, moon, stars, earth, ether, air, fire, water, the seasons, and the year? . . . I think the stars (astera) get their name from astrapê (lightning).
* Cicero, De Natura Deorum 2. 15 & 20 ff (trans. Rackham) (Roman rhetorician C1st B.C.) :
"We must also assign the same divinity to the Stellae (Stars) [fixed and wandering], which are formed from the most mobile and the purest part of the aether (upper atmosphere), and are not compounded of any other element besides; they are of a fiery heat and translucent throughout. Hence they too have the fullest right to be pronounced living beings endowed with sensation and intelligence . .
* Cicero, De Natura Deorum 3. 19 :
"You say that Sol the Sun and Luna the Moon are deities, and the Greeks identify the former with Apollo and the latter with Diana [Artemis]. But if Luna (the Moon) is a goddess, then Lucifer (the Morning-Star) [Hesperos] also and the rest of the Stellae Errantes (Planets) will have to be counted gods; and if so, then the Stellae Inerrantes (Fixed Stars) as well."
http://www.gks.uk.com
* Tuthmosis (Moon) ... “Son of Ra, of his body, his beloved Tuthmosis, shining like Ra….."
Hatshepsut (Venus) ... "Live the Horus: Wosretkew; Favorite of the Two Goddesses; Fresh in Years; Golden Horus: Divine of Diadems; splendid part of her father, Amon-Ra, lord of heaven, who has not been far removed from the father of all gods, shining in brightness like the Horizon-God she illuminates like the sun (Ra), vivifying the hearts of the people, who is exalted in name so that it hath reached heaven."

http://www.nasm.si.edu/CEPS/ETP/discove ... cient.html
The Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum says:
To the people of many ancient civilizations, the planets were thought to be deities. Our names for the planets are the Roman names for these deities. For example, Mars was the god of war and Venus the goddess of love.

http://www.rudolfhsmit.nl/p-betw2.htm
* Early astrology
Astrological ideas formed in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and ancient Greece, and then spread westward. During this early period astrology coagulated into a fixed world view that recognised gods in the planets and signs, whose existence was proven by comparing life on earth with the movements of the sky.

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Lloyd,
This was not originally about planet = god. This started because Moses recommended Cooke's site to NamuNamuNamu and I commented that Cooke's site was crap. To back up my assertion I quoted a couple of lines from the top of the front page of Cooke's site:

".. a large planet stood above the North Pole for a very long time."
That fact is certain; and that is what this site is about.

My comment on the above quote was:

That 'fact' is not only not certain, it is not even remotely close to being probable.

You then came in with two reasons why the owners of this site believe
in the Saturn theory:

1. the ancients the world over said very clearly that that was the case and that the planet that was seen there stationary, but eventually rotating, for centuries, if not millennia, was Saturn, meaning Earth was a moon of Saturn; 2. the major force in the universe is the electrical force, rather than gravity, and that's why the Earth, Mars and Venus could have, and most probably were, aligned along Saturn's south polar axis during that time.

My response to this was:

Reason 1: Show me where the ancients say 'very clearly that this was the case'.
Reason 2. Electricity may be a 'major force' in the universe but it is a non sequitur to suggest that it follows that the planets were aligned as you suggest.

Now you have come back with:

* You said: Show me where the ancients say 'very clearly that this was the case', [i.e. that the planets are gods]

So it appears to me from the above that this was about planetary alignment and the role of Saturn (the planet) and not whether planet = god.
A few words about planet = god. I have stated on more than one occasion that I do not deny that planets were equated with gods but that I find the planet = god full stop/period equation far too simplistic. For instance, how does this equation account for nymphs, demi-gods,
river-gods etc? Or why do some planets have more than one god assigned to them, e.g. Ge, Rhea, Demeter etc for the Earth? To what planet is Hades assigned?
My own current understanding is that originally there were no gods (or God). My guess would be that gods were 'invented' post-catastrophe.
In support of your god = planet notion you regurgitated some stuff from Velikovsky. Have you ever read any of these sources? Many of them are quite old, e.g. 1856, 1914, 1929 and academic scholarship has moved on since then. Cumont's work on Mithraism for example has been superceded by modern scholars (see David Ulansey).
As for:

According to ancient Hebrew traditions, “there are seven archangels, each of whom is associated with a planet.” (13) “The seven archangels were believed to play an important part in the universal order through their associations with the planets. . . .”

Stretching things a bit there given that Judaism is monotheistic and archangels are not gods per se.
Cicero's On the Nature of the Gods looks very interesting. What is even more interesting is the creative quoting by Velikovsky. From looking at the work it appears that the person doing the talking at this point is a Stoic as he is citing Zeno (of Citium). In book II, 21 as quoted by
Velikovsky the speaker makes comments which would appear to preclude any notion of catastrophe let alone support any of the Saturn theories:

XXI. I cannot, therefore, conceive that this constant course of the planets, this just agreement in such various motions through all eternity, can be preserved without a mind, reason, and consideration; and since we may perceive these qualities in the stars, we cannot but place them in the rank of Gods...Their motion is daily, regular, and constant.
[...]
In the heavens, therefore, there is nothing fortuitous, unadvised, inconstant, or variable: all there is order, truth, reason, and, constancy; and all the things which are destitute of these qualities are counterfeit, deceitful, and erroneous, and have their residence about the earth beneath the moon, the lowest of all the planets.

You also cited Cicero (3:19) via theoi.com. This passage appears to actually be 3:20 and whover is talking at this point is arguing against the notion of gods = planets:

XX. Do you not consider, Balbus, to what lengths your arguments for the divinity of the heaven and the stars will carry you? You deify the sun and the moon, which the Greeks take to be Apollo and Diana. If the moon is a Deity, the morning-star, the other planets, and all the fixed stars are also Deities; and why shall not the rainbow be placed in that number? for it is so wonderfully beautiful that it is justly said to be the daughter of Thaumas. But if you deify the rainbow, what regard will you pay to the clouds? for the colors which appear in the bow are only formed of the clouds, one of which is said to have brought forth the Centaurs; and if you deify the clouds, you cannot pay less regard to the seasons, which the Roman people have really consecrated. Tempests, showers, storms, and whirlwinds must then be Deities. It is certain, at least, that our captains used to sacrifice a victim to the waves before they embarked on any voyage.
As you deify the earth under the name of Ceres, because, as you said, she bears fruits (a gerendo), and the ocean under that of Neptune, rivers and fountains have the same right. Thus we see that Maso, the conqueror of Corsica, dedicated a temple to a fountain, and the names of the Tiber, Spino, Almo, Nodinus, and other neighboring rivers are in the prayers of the augurs. Therefore, either the number of such Deities will be infinite, or we must admit none of them, and wholly disapprove of such an endless series of superstition.
XXI. None of all these assertions, then, are to be admitted.

Later, 3:24, it is stated:

Zeno first, and after him Cleanthes and Chrysippus, are put to the unnecessary trouble of explaining mere fables, and giving reasons for the several appellations of every Deity; which is really owning that those whom we call Gods are not the representations of deities, but natural things, and that to judge otherwise is an error.

And while we are with Cicero, he also makes some interesting comments about Herakles (3:16), beloved of Ev 'Starf*cker' Cochrane:

With regard to those who, you say, from having been men became Gods, I should be very willing to learn of you, either how it was possible formerly, or, if it had ever been, why is it not so now? I do not conceive, as things are at present, how Hercules,
Burn’d with fiery torches on Mount Oeta,
as Accius says, should rise, with the flames,
To the eternal mansions of his father.
Besides, Homer also says that Ulysses met him in the shades below, among the other dead.

But yet I should be glad to know which Hercules we should chiefly worship; for they who have searched into those histories, which are but little known, tell us of several. The most ancient is he who fought with Apollo about the Tripos of Delphi, and is son of Jupiter and Lisyto; and of the most ancient Jupiters too, for we find many Jupiters also in the Grecian chronicles. The second is the Egyptian Hercules, and is believed to be the son of Nilus, and to be the author of the Phrygian characters. The third, to whom they offered sacrifices, is one of the Idaei Dactyli. The fourth is the son of Jupiter and Asteria, the sister of Latona, chiefly honored by the Tyrians, who pretend that Carthago is his daughter. The fifth, called Belus, is worshipped in India. The sixth is the son of Alcmena by Jupiter; but by the third Jupiter, for there are many Jupiters, as you shall soon see.

One wonders how, if the histories of Herakles were little known in Cicero's day, Cochrane (and others) can be so certain of their facts today.
I have read Plato's Cratylus and in it the names of the gods are all related to either mind or movement.
This site I have read and rate it with Cooke's: http://www.gks.uk.com
'The Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum says'. They are not an ancient source nor I think would they in any way support catastrophism.
This one I haven't read yet but I will: http://www.rudolfhsmit.nl/p-betw2.htm
Though this doesn't bode well:

Astrological ideas formed in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and ancient Greece, and then spread westward.

What about Vedic astrology and astronomy?
Did you get chance to read this:
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... =15#p10555 and are there any of my comments you would wish to refute?

[seasmith]

January 1, 2009
Six North American sites hold 12,900 year-old nanodiamond-rich soil

Abundant tiny particles of diamond dust exist in sediments dating to 12,900 years ago at six North American sites, adding strong evidence for Earth’s impact with a rare swarm of carbon-and-water-rich comets or carbonaceous chondrites, reports a nine-member scientific team.

"The nanodiamonds that we found at all six locations exist only in sediments associated with the Younger Dryas Boundary layers, not above it or below it," said Kennett, a UO archaeologist. "These discoveries provide strong evidence for a cosmic impact event at approximately 12,900 years ago that would have had enormous environmental consequences for plants, animals and humans across North America."

http://www.nanowerk.com/news/newsid=8769.php



http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/v ... rt=15#p963



[ arc-us,
Well worth the re-read. Thank you for recovering it. ]
s

~

[bboyer]

January 1, 2009
Six North American sites hold 12,900 year-old nanodiamond-rich soil

<snip>

[ arc-us,
Well worth the re-read. Thank you for recovering it. ]
s

~

My pleasure, s.

With re to the nanodiamond-rich soil, was just wondering how that might correlate with the discovery by Barsoum of the nanoparticles in the sampling of material from the Great Pyramid as referenced in his presentation I mentioned again in this thread Re: How did ancient peoples know "so much"?.

[junglelord]

This is an amazing discovery of how the ancients knew so much. Also how they navigated the world over. The Cross and the Plumbline by Crichton Miller is an engrossing investigation into how ancient sacred symbols were the device of knowledge. Sacred Geometry again comes to light, not as some "new age" fluffy thingy, but as a important concept in how the ancients not only knew so much, but how they derived their knowledge....it was Sacred Geometry.



The Cross and the Plumbline

MOD NOTE: Hey JL, please keep the cross-posting to a minimum, particularly on l-o-n-n-g ( ) articles. A simple link, as above, will do. Thanks!

[bboyer]

Kwicky says, "Cross-posting BAD. Reference links GOOD."

[junglelord]

sorry for the extended quote.

funny though how the religious conitations for cross and sacred geometry taint its true importance.

[bboyer]

sorry for the extended quote.

funny though how the religious conitations for cross and sacred geometry taint its true importance.

Not sure, but just in case, you do realize that "cross-posting" didn't refer to the title or subject of your posting (The Cross and The Plumbline) but to the practice of posting the same, or essentially the same, material to more than one thread (across multiple threads) rather than just posting a link to the location of the original or referenced post - hence, cross-posting or x-posting?

[soulsurvivor]

funny though how the religious conitations for cross and sacred geometry taint its true importance.

I can identify with that remark.

Several years ago, when I first read The Golden Thread of Time by Mr. Miller, I was still trying to hang onto some vestiges of religious systematic belief. I credit this book with ending that particular need to hold to a false belief.

[junglelord]

No arc I did not realize thats what you meant. Cryptic double entangra, LOL.
I thought it was good to cross post, but with not such a large quote.


Some information seems to apply to several threads at once, I will make one post and link to the thread from now on.

[bboyer]

No arc I did not realize thats what you meant. Cryptic double entangra, LOL.
I thought it was good to cross post, but with not such a large quote.


Some information seems to apply to several threads at once, I will make one post and link to the thread from now on.

Thank you!

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