Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:13 am

Ever since I joined this forum I have been asking for someone (anyone) to give me an example, from an ancient source, of something which could, might, may be interpreted as evidence of planetary catastrophe. I am opening this thread in the hope that such textual references will be forthcoming.
If such references are forthcoming then we can analyse and discuss them here. I don't mind whether the texts are religious, mythological, philosophical or whatever. What I don't want is images. (If someone wants to open a thread dealing with images then all well and good as I would enjoy discussing the symbology involved).
And once more, just for the record, I do feel that there is evidence for planetary catastrophe and that plasma could well have played a central role in it. My own thinking is that there has been more than one catastrophe.
I am not trying to tread on anyone's toes here, I am only interested in knowledge. My hope is that I will be introduced to texts and sources of which I am unfamiliar and which will lead me to further understanding.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
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and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby Solar » Mon Sep 22, 2008 3:19 pm

For me that would be the demise of Atlantis as described by Socrates in Timaeus & Critias which probably has a relation to "Flood Stories from Around the World" with highly probable evidence from "Cuban Megaliths and the Atlantis Question"

"People have become rebellious. Atum said he will destroy all he made and return the earth to the Primordial Water which was its original state. Atum will remain, in the form of a serpent, with Osiris." Faulkner, Raymond (transl.). The Egyptian Book of the Dead, The Book of Going Forth by Day
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Mon Sep 22, 2008 4:44 pm

Hi Solar,
Thanks for getting the show on the road.
I've read both Timaeus and Critias and indeed Plato does unequivocally state, via Solon and the priest of Sais that there was a catastrophe. Moreover Plato states that this took place 9,600 years or so before his time which would place it approximately 10,000BCE.
I have read several of Plato's works and one thing he does is to mix fact with allegory. This is done partly, I feel, to make the reader think rather than just memorise him. So this begs the question of what is fact and what is allegory in the tale of this particular catastrophe.
The Egyptian priest states that the reason he knows about this is because Egypt was untouched by the catastrophe and its records are intact, whereas Greece copped for it and has had to start anew. This assertion does not sit well with the story of Sekhmet running amok across Egypt (if this is a description of some sort of catastrophe). Also, given that Solon was in Egypt well after the Exodus, it is difficult to reconcile the priest's remarks with the alleged catastrophe taking place during the Exodus (later than the Atlantis story but before the time of Solon).
Another point I recently came across is that in the book when Critias first mentions the tale, Socrates states that he has never heard it before. The implication being that someone as knowledgeable as Socrates would have been aware of the heoic exploits of the Athenian-led alliance in its war against the Atlantean alliance. Offsetting this is the fact that once Critias gets into the telling of the tale Socrates doesn't question or criticise it. This is very unusual for Socrates as usually he is in like Flynn if he hears something he is not happy with.
So where does that leave us?

I have read countless accounts of flood stories from around the world and seldom is there anything remotely resembling a date or time-frame attached to them. This is not to say that I discount any or all of them. My point is merely that it is difficult to find anything one can pin a hypothesis to.

I have read the Egyptian Book of the Dead but not the Faulkner translation. The quote you gave is interesting:
People have become rebellious. Atum said he will destroy all he made and return the earth to the Primordial Water which was its original state. Atum will remain, in the form of a serpent, with Osiris." Faulkner, Raymond (transl.). The Egyptian Book of the Dead, The Book of Going Forth by Day

(I'm assuming that you have cut n pasted this rather than typed it).
To me this is nothing to do with catastrophe, although I will check out the text preceding this to get some sort of context. I'll try to do this tomorrow but if you could give a hint as to whereabouts in the book it is to be found I would be grateful. Taking the quote 'as is', note the phrase 'Primordial Water'. Primordial water has little to do with H2O, it is in fact Nu. It is not saying that Atum is going to flood the planet but that Atum is going to un-create the Earth, i.e. the physical world will be no more. Also interesting, though off-topic is the comment about Atum remaing as a serpent and having Osiris with him.

Your link to the Earthfiles and Linda Whatserface are irrelevant as they are not ancient and not, in my opinion, anything intellectual. ;)

Seldom, if ever, is an ancient text as clear-cut as modern authors like to make out. The one thing that most of the ancient writers had in common was that they were all master psychologists (and I don't mean the Jungian-Freudian rubbish).
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby Solar » Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:50 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:Hi Solar,
I have read several of Plato's works and one thing he does is to mix fact with allegory. This is done partly, I feel, to make the reader think rather than just memorise him. So this begs the question of what is fact and what is allegory in the tale of this particular catastrophe.


I don't discount that he may have had this tendency. However, your comment with regard to making the "reader think" may be appropriate. When considering De Lubicz and those facets of knowledge he gleaned from the very structures themselves - whilst those with big egyptological brains pass by in plain sight- it is apparent that some knowledge cannot simply be stated. It must be come to by the individual. Perhaps; that is why Socrates may have appeared to 'act' somewhat irrational or secretive in that manner. That is speculation of course.

I have read countless accounts of flood stories from around the world and seldom is there anything remotely resembling a date or time-frame attached to them. This is not to say that I discount any or all of them. My point is merely that it is difficult to find anything one can pin a hypothesis to.


Catastrophic upheavals such as those that may have sank an entire continent wold seem to occur over very long periods of time in 'fits and starts' with long periods of inactivity only to resume again at some later date(s). Such a thing can have multiple 'events' which may have culminated as a general 'story' in an overall historical retrospect but actually incurred multiple sub-events over hundreds to thousands of years. Trying to reconcile who was in which period of destruction would then prove difficult coupled with an individual known to be factual and allegorical.

The sinking of Atlantis may have been just such a case. I don't consider the continent (land mass) to have sank overnight. Continents are quite large. It would take thousands of years for it to slowly 'break apart' with some periods o destruction greater than others. Overall, remembered or accounted for via different flood myths at different times.

I have read the Egyptian Book of the Dead but not the Faulkner translation. The quote you gave is interesting:
People have become rebellious. Atum said he will destroy all he made and return the earth to the Primordial Water which was its original state. Atum will remain, in the form of a serpent, with Osiris." Faulkner, Raymond (transl.). The Egyptian Book of the Dead, The Book of Going Forth by Day

(I'm assuming that you have cut n pasted this rather than typed it).


Yes I did cut and paste it for brevity but I do have this book in full color etc and Budge's. I checked my Faulkner Plate 30 and that phrase is not there. Must be more careful about such things but I have the 1994 edition the author of that website refers to. I think there is a 1972 edition though. But I'll look further also.

To me this is nothing to do with catastrophe, although I will check out the text preceding this to get some sort of context. I'll try to do this tomorrow but if you could give a hint as to whereabouts in the book it is to be found I would be grateful. Taking the quote 'as is', note the phrase 'Primordial Water'. Primordial water has little to do with H2O, it is in fact Nu. It is not saying that Atum is going to flood the planet but that Atum is going to un-create the Earth, i.e. the physical world will be no more.


That would be one understanding of it yes but I want to wait until the context is provided also.

Your link to the Earthfiles and Linda Whatserface are irrelevant as they are not ancient and not, in my opinion, anything intellectual. ;)

Ah I see. Ancient text only that may reveal catastrophic events.(?)

Seldom, if ever, is an ancient text as clear-cut as modern authors like to make out. The one thing that most of the ancient writers had in common was that they were all master psychologists (and I don't mean the Jungian-Freudian rubbish).


Well that's certainly an interesting take. I suppose I prefer the "symbolist" approach which can sometimes *seem* Jungian. Freud is simply out. Go figure, the one time I finally found a use for the HTML 'strikethrough' function and it isn't available. :lol:
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby moses » Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:06 pm

If gods were planets then the texts are there. Not my scene really.
And why should there be textual evidence ?
I like the geological, physical evidence. Anyway I dug up these bits:
ENUMA ELISH
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/enuma.htm
"She hath set up vipers, and dragons, and the monster Lahamu,
And hurricanes and raging hounds, and scorpion-men,
And mighty tempests, and fish-men and rams;"

"He set the lightning in front of him,
With burning flame he filled his body.
He made a net to enclose the inward parts of Tiamat,
The four winds he stationed so that nothing of her might escape;
The South wind and the North wind and the East wind and the West wind
He brought near to the net, the gift of his father Anu.
He created the evil wind, and the tempest, and the hurricane,
And the fourfold wind, and the sevenfold wind, and the whirlwind,
and the wind which had no equal;
He sent forth the winds which he bad created, the seven of them;
To disturb the inward parts of Tiamat, they followed after him.

Then the lord raised the thunderbolt, his mighty weapon,
He mounted the chariot, the storm unequaled for terror,
He harnessed and yoked unto it four horses,
Destructive, ferocious, overwhelming, and swift of pace;"

Vishnu Purana: Sacrafice of Daksha
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/vp/vp043.htm
"Having thus spoken to his beloved spouse, the mighty Maheśwara created from
his mouth a being like the fire of fate; a divine being, with a thousand heads,
a thousand eyes, a thousand feet; wielding a thousand clubs, a thousand shafts;
holding the shell, the discus, the mace, and bearing a blazing bow and battle-axe;
fierce and terrific, shining with dreadful splendour, and decorated with the
crescent moon; clothed in a tiger's skin, dripping with blood; having a capacious
stomach, and a vast mouth, armed with formidable tusks: his ears were erect, his
lips were pendulous, his tongue was lightning; his hand brandished the thunderbolt;
flames streamed from his hair; a necklace of pearls wound round his neck; a garland
of flame descended on his breast: radiant with lustre, he looked like the final fire
that consumes the world. Four tremendous tusks projected from a mouth which extended
from ear to ear: he was of vast bulk, vast strength, a mighty male and lord, the
destroyer of the universe, and like a large fig-tree in circumference; shining like
a hundred moons at once; fierce as the fire of love; having four heads, sharp white
teeth, and of mighty fierceness, vigour, activity, and courage; glowing with the blaze
of a thousand fiery suns at the end of the world; like a thousand undimmed moons:
in bulk like Himádri, Kailása, or Meru, or Mandara, with all its gleaming herbs;
bright as the sun of destruction at the end of ages; of irresistible prowess, and
beautiful aspect; irascible, with lowering eyes, and a countenance burning like fire;
clothed in the hide of the elephant and lion, and girt round with snakes; wearing a
turban on his head, a moon on his brow; sometimes savage, sometimes mild; having a
chaplet of many flowers on his head, anointed with various unguents, and adorned with
different ornaments and many sorts of jewels; wearing a garland of heavenly Karnikára
flowers, and rolling his eyes with rage. Sometimes he danced; sometimes he laughed
aloud; sometimes he stood wrapt in meditation; sometimes he trampled upon the earth;
sometimes he sang; sometimes he wept repeatedly: and he was endowed with the faculties
of wisdom, dispassion, power, penance, truth, endurance, fortitude, dominion, and
self-knowledge."
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby kevin » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:15 am

If I could offer a thought about Atlantis sinking.

If instead of thinking in terms of any of the mass of this planet spinning or moving about, as in the whole planet , or the crust of the planet moving, why not think about an electrical change that would result in a different field about this planet?
Then consider that the inputs/outputs of that field would cause pressures and decompression areas upon the surface of the planet.
The field alteration could occur almost instantaneous, as the flow direction/s of space alter according to an even larger field change out in this galaxy , and the results are passed down in scale to everything within that galaxy.

I can then percieve of continents sinking and sea beds raising again instantaniously, with the poles positions altering not due to some spin or surface sliding, but through electrical field alteration.
The suddeness of such an occurance would be written down in terms of the then present understanding of the universe.
Though there may be very few people left to actually record anything.
If as I now consider, everything is merely a holographic continuum of existance where everything created can instantly become no-thing again, in the blink of an eye, then the surface area of the planet could at such times be almost cleansed of most of what is there, and that would occur in great swathes of where huge flows of either negative or positive charges break apart the bindings of everything in their paths.
This again would lead to little evidence of previous civilizations.
And if the occurance of such events are timed in a spiral fashion, then they will arise ever more frequently as you near the spiral centre point.
You would therefore find evidence of millions of years ago, but would have sudden and unexplained gaps, and those gaps will become nearer together as each spiral turn tightens into the centre point.
I feel we are nearing that spiral centre point.
All I can think is,
Scooby Doo.
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby mague » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:12 am

I wanted to suggest Ragnaroek

The edas arent exactly ancient. But the sources from folk songs and storytelling are very old.

The idea that the sky might fall is not only present in the Asterix comics ;) It is part of germanic heritage.

Since the event ends with a flood it doesnt have to be in future and could have happened before the great flood.
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby nick c » Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:15 am

Hello all,
As this thread is looking for evidence of planetary catastrophism, I would hope that the capacity is quite large for there is certainly enough to fill a library. Indeed, enough to fill a library has already been written.
That being said, Plato's Timaeus and Critias has been mentioned in this thread, and this is a good place to start since it contains the story of the destruction of Atlantis which is the quintessential catastrophe story, especially among non-catastrophists.
As Velikovsky noted in Worlds In Collision, where he devoted 3 pages to Atlantis, there have been numerous attempts by scholars to pinpoint the location of the legendary civilization. Students of the subject have placed Atlantis in many places, including Tunisia, South America, Crete, Ceylon, to mention a few. Plato placed it beyond the Pillars of Hercules, commonly assumed to be Gibraltar, which would put it in the Atlantic. The story is seen to be everywhere (according to Velikovsky) because tales of islands sinking and/or being innundated and civilizations destroyed were a common experience throughout the world. The implication being that uniformitarian scholars when encountering a tale of a catastrophic demise of a civilization or island automatically assume that it is another tale of Atlantis, when in actuality there may be no relationship in either location or time. Survivors of global catastrophes would have recounted tales of destroyed civilizations, by flood and/or fire, since these events occurred in many places at different times.
Back to Plato and Timaeus and Critias. Keeping in mind that Plato got this information 3rd hand from an Egyptian Priest. As much as has been drawn from this work, especially concerning Atlantis, Velikovsky has been the only one to point out that all writers have missed the two most important points made by Plato, which are also germane to this thread:

1. "Your own story of how Phaethon...was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt and is a mythical version of the truth..."
2. "...there is at long intervals a variation in the course of the heavenly bodies and a consequent widespread destruction by fire of things on earth."
(color highlights added)

Here Plato is showing himself to be a modern planetary catastrophist!
In #1 he is saying that the myth of Phaethon is really a story of a catastrophic celestial event, and by implication at least some other myths must be too. He is also alluding to a plasma discharge between celestial bodies!
In #2 he is making a connection between the apparent change in the observed motion of a heavenly body which results in destruction on the earth. This is even more powerful evidence since it begs the question- how could people who never experienced anything but a stable, ordered, and unchanging solar system make the connection between a change in the motion of heavenly bodies, a thunderbolt, and widespread destruction on earth? If they never experienced such a thing, how could they have the necessary expertise to make that up? Why would they make it up?

As far as why we have forgotten the catastrophes, Plato cites the destruction of men with the skill of writing, leaving no record of what happened. Here Plato oversimplifies, but that discussion is for another time.


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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:21 am

Hi Solar,
Catastrophic upheavals such as those that may have sank an entire continent wold seem to occur over very long periods of time in 'fits and starts' with long periods of inactivity only to resume again at some later date(s). Such a thing can have multiple 'events' which may have culminated as a general 'story' in an overall historical retrospect but actually incurred multiple sub-events over hundreds to thousands of years. Trying to reconcile who was in which period of destruction would then prove difficult coupled with an individual known to be factual and allegorical.


I tend towards hundreds rather than thousands of years for these events as as I subscribe to the notion of cyclical time.
The individual flood stories I see as circumstantial evidence which provide quantity rather than quality if you will.

I can imagine a continent sinking overnight, figuratively if not literally. Never underestimate Nature. It would have to sink fairly rapidly to cause the tsunamis and rapid sea-level rises?

With regard to the Faulker/EBotD quote, just as a matter of interest, what site did you get it from. I look forward to your findings re the actual book.

It is my intention to stick to ancient sources as there are a thousand and one modern authors out there with their own pet theories. Every one of them cherry-picks and mixes and matches ancient material to suit his or her own needs. They generally also cobble on something of their own.

Regarding Jung and Freud, to be honest I can never remember which one is which but this isn't so important as I have no time for either.
For an interesting take on one of them and Plato see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZJgnK8IHaI
This link is to part 2 as youtube's search facility couldn't find part one.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Sep 23, 2008 1:47 pm

Hi Mo,
Nice quotes from the Enuma Elish although you have mixed and matched passages from tablets one and four.
The passage from T1 (She hath set up vipers...) is describing a war of the gods, the equivalent of the Greek Titanomachy. This, to me, is describing creation. The first part of T1 reads:

When in the height heaven was not named,
And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both
Their waters were mingled together,
And no field was formed, no marsh was to be seen;
When of the gods none had been called into being,
And none bore a name, and no destinies were ordained;


To name a thing is to create it - it's to do with vibration and the same thing can be found in the Popol Vuh for example. This passage is saying essentially the same thing as the first few verses of Genesis 1. In the language of the I Ching, Dao and One have have not yet been
separated. (Tiamat here = the Dao (Dark Mother), Nu (the Primordial Waters), etc, etc.

Unfortunately the text is very fragmentary but this part could well describe the setting up of the constellations or the firmament (the fixed stars):
She set up vipers and dragons, and the monster Lahamu,
And hurricanes, and raging hounds, and scorpion-men,
And mighty tempests, and fish-men, and rams;
They bore cruel weapons, without fear of the fight.
Her commands were mighty, none could resist them;
After this fashion, huge of stature, she made eleven [kinds of] monsters.

One would have to check their zodiac.

This from T4:
He sent forth the winds which he had created, the seven of them;
To disturb the inward parts of Tiamat, they followed after him.

This sounds to me like the setting up of the planets, as I read 'the inward parts of Tiamat' to mean the space below the firmament or constellations.
There appears to be some (scholarly) confusion as to who or what Marduk is or represents. If I am correct about the planets (which includes the Sun) then he would not appear to be any of them. He may well represent Man a la Dionysus. (Not us on the planet but us 'out there' or 'up
there').
That it is describing events in the heavens I have no doubt. Nor do I have any problem with any of this being plasma related etc. Not quite convinced that it is describing a catastrophe which was witnessed or experienced by humans though.

I am not familiar with Vishnu Purana so wil have to take your quoted passage as it stands. I am not sure what is being described in this passage but certain parts suggest that it is not anything to do with Earthly catastrophe as such:
'he looked like the final fire that consumes the world';

'glowing with the blaze of a thousand fiery suns at the end of the world';

'bright as the sun of destruction at the end of ages';

'and he was endowed with the faculties of wisdom, dispassion, power, penance, truth, endurance, fortitude, dominion, and self-knowledge'.
The last line could also be applied to Man.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:09 pm

Hi Kevin,
I thought of you when I read Solar's quote from the Egyptian book of the Dead and Atum un-creating the Earth.
Although I have no problem with your theory of matter (for want of a better phrase), in the case of Earthly catastrophe I see Nature (the great recycler) just dropping the land mass (Atlantis or not) back into the body of the Earth and using the 'bulk' elsewhere, e.g. raising the Rockies and or the Alps for instance (both fairly young ranges?).

I feel we are nearing that spiral centre point
.
Me too, hence my interest in cyclical time or, more correctly, my interest in cyclical time has led me to a similar conclusion: there's gonna be trouble at mill. Many paths, one Truth? We must be reet as it's not often a Lancashire lad and a Yorkshireman agree on owt. :shock:
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
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The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:59 pm

Hi Mague,
Thanks for bringing up the Eddas and Ragnarok which I had forgotten about despite re-reading the Voluspa earlier this year.
The events described in the Voluspa are very similar in tone to those described in the Indian accounts of Kali Yuga. There are lots of other things going on in there but I feel that this is describing Earthly catastrophe at the end of a cycle, i.e. a change of seasons in the Great or Platonic Year.
I feel that a lot of the imagery is astronomical/astrological and either telling when these events will occur or from what part of the sky they will appear or take place. I'm thinking of the Eagle (Scorpio) here and Hrymm coming from the East etc.

I forgot to include the world ocean of Nordic myth in my reply to Moses re Tiamut,the Dao, Nu etc. To me, the serpent Jörmungandr represents matter. Or, more exactly, the matter which is held within the world ocean, Dao, Nu etc (in metaophysical solution, if you will). Thor then
would be playing a similar role to Marduk in the Ennuma Elish.

The Nordic creation myth where there is Ginnunga Gap with Fire giants at the North end and Frost giants at the South and everything (material) being formed out of the 'mist' issuing from the interplay of Fire and Frost is one of my favourites. Great example of the Law of Three. Exactly the same as 'From One comes two and from two, three. From three comes the ten thousand things' of the I Ching (paraphrased).

One of the best (if not the best) interpretations of Nordic mythology in general that I have come across is by Manly P. Hall.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
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The great Way is simple
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby allynh » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:23 pm

Atlantis was probably the Americas.

In the book Sagan and Velikovsky they quote Darwin seeing freshly raised coastlines and Machu Pichu as once being at sea level.

Plus, in some of the PBS episodes discussing Thor Heyerdahl, they mention that Egyptian mummies have been found treated with tobacco and cocaine leaves which would indicate recent contact with South America. Rather than depend on long sea voyages for the trade, if the Americas were closer trade would have been easier.

If the Earth grew like Neal Adams shows in his videos, then the Americas would have been close to Europe and the last to pull away. Plus, as the Earth grew the continents flexed up to build mountains, changing the coastline to the current shape.

Nothing needed to sink, so much as the land mass pulled away from Europe and lifted up forming land rather than shallow seas. Thus when sailors made their usual trip to "Atlantis" and it was gone, they assumed that it sank.

A note: I don't think Adams is aware of Plasma Cosmology so his time scales are long. If you watch the videos, you can see how the Americas pulled away last, by any time scale.
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:37 pm

Hi Nick,
Thanks for the input with two great points from Timaeus/Critias via Velikovsky (sorry, couldn't resist the alliteration).

The Phaeton story is to me as close to a clear-cut piece of evidence as is likely to be found for planetary catastrophe. I see it as describing the Earth bobbing about (i.e. it has become
buoyant) rather than the Sun careening about the sky. The story also names several geographical locations, e.g. the land of the Ethiops [sic], which felt the effects of the goings on.
Plasma discharge - quite probably.

"...there is at long intervals a variation in the course of the heavenly bodies and a consequent widespread destruction by fire of things on earth."
There's that cyclical time thing again. This passage is saying exactly what it says on the tin. Plato is being straight here (I think).

If I get the chance tomorrow, I might have another look at the myth.

And thanks for leaving out the collective amnesia bit, or did you forget it?.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
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The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
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Re: Ancient textual evidence for planetary catastrophe?

Unread postby Solar » Tue Sep 23, 2008 4:36 pm

Yes, the quote is there. Although, it is from the "Chapter for not dying again" and is on plate 29 of Faulkner's 1994 full color edition. Here Ani and Tutu are standing before Thoth who is sitting on a plinth. The question is initially asked of Thoth:

"Oh Thoth, what is it that has come about through the Children of Nut? They have made war, they have raised up tumult, they have done wrong, they have created rebellion, they have done slaughter, they have created imprisonment, they have reduced what was great to what is little in all that we have made; show greatness, O Thoth! - So says Atum.You shall not witness wrongdoing, you shallnot suffer it! Shorten their years, cut short their months, because they have done hidden damage to all that you have made. I have you palette, O Thoth, I bring your inkpot to you; I am not among those who have done hidden damage to all that you have made, and none will work harm on me.

Thus says Ani: O Atum, how comes it that I travel to a deset which has no water and no air, and which is deep dark, and unsearchable?

ATUM: Live in it in content!

ANI: But there is no love-making there!

ATUM: I have given spirit-being instead of water, air and love-making, contentment in place of bread and beer - so says Atum. Do not be sorry for yourself, for I will not suffer you to lack.

ANI: But every god has taken his place in the Bark of Millions of Years!

ATUM: Your seat now belong to your son Horus - so says Atum - and he will dispatch the Elders, he will rule from your seat, he will inherit the throne which is in the Island of fire.

ANI: Command that I may see his equal, for my face will see the face of the Lord of All. What will be the duration of my life? - so said he.

ATUM: You shall be for million on millions of years, a lifetime of millions of years. I will dispatch the Elders and destroy all that I have made; the earth shall return to the Primordial Water, to the lsurging flood, as in its original state. But I will remain with Osiris, I will transform myself into something else, namely a serpent, without men knowing or the gods seeing. How good is what I have done for Osiris, even more than for all the gods! I have given him the desert, and his son Horus is the heir on his throne which is in the Island of Fire; I have made what appertains to his place in the Bark of Millions of years, and Horus is firm on his throne in order to found his establishments." - Faulkner: "The Book of Going forth by Day"


Only three more utterances follow this as quoted. This does appears moreso to be from that perspective of activities within the innerworld with a bit of anxiety expressed by Ani in that there is no "lovemaking". As if to say that in the afterlife those familiar desires of the body won't be accomodated. Atum reveals that he gives "spirit-being" and 'contentment' as opposed to earthy familiars. Then Atum basically lays out what might be comparable to a "Night of Brahma" when the universe, perhaps 'material thing-ness', returns to it's primordial state.

Therefore, as you stated, this wouldn't seem to qualify as relating to possible earth catastrophes. Unless of course, that 'greater macrocosmic cycle', is 'mirrored' in smaller microcosmic cycles by way of upheavals as in "As above; so below".
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden
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